5 ms·

Beer and chairs are not a cost worth mentioning. Broadway rent for an office with 0 need to be near New Yorkers is the main problem.

bdcravens 7y ago
> Beer and chairs are not a cost worth mentioning. I mostly agree, but it says a lot about a company's command of their expenses.
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  Does it? An Aeron chair runs like $1000. Probably less in bulk. <1% of an engineer's salary. It's in the noise.
  - fyz 7y ago
    Is it? The parent poster was specifically trying to say there is signal -- vs just noise -- in purchases like aeron chairs.
  - samstave 7y ago
    Please see my other comment: Are you not familiar with the addage: "The success of your company is inversely proportional to the number of Aeron Chairs you have" --- We designed and built out (first dot com bubble) an office in SF for Quokka Sports. They got a crap ton of VC$ and they built out this really nice brick and timber office, fish-bowl conf rooms etc... They crashed and burned BEFORE they were even able to move into this amazing office, near the Ferry Building in SF.... I had to go there and take a bunch of pics of the newly built office, but which was never moved into. They had a FUCKING BOATLOAD of Aeron chairs... all stacked up to the ceilings in all the conference rooms. Those chairs at the time were ~$2,000 a piece - and they had like ~500 of them or so.... So, that used to be an actual measurement of fiscal responsibility in startups 20 years ago; How many Aeron Chairs did you buy with VC Money.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - jrockway 7y ago
    They are even cheaper when you buy them from failed startups. Used chairs are like used cars; they work great, but they lose 80% of their value when you drive them off the furniture delivery truck. eBay is filled with these. I bought one (not an Aeron, but a Teknion Contessa which I like better) for $300 from eBay and the proprietor brought it to my apartment at 9am the next day. If I ever start a company with an office, I will just get a mishmash of those. Essential to the creation of software, and costs less than a couple hours of engineering time. (Aerons are great chairs and are about the same price on eBay. Plus these people with listings on eBay usually have a stash in a warehouse somewhere and will let you go look at them and buy them in bulk. Yes, I do sometimes wonder where they all come from, but in New York, you don't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to ;)
    - Lazare 7y ago
      Yeah. I quite like the company I work for, and they do a lot of things right on this front, and cut no corners on developer machines, extra monitors, etc, but... ...they went for really crap chairs. I don't really understand the logic. They're uncomfortable, and they're falling apart after a couple of years. The amount of time the engineering team has spent talking about them, complaining about them, and stealing still-working ones from other desks when theirs breaks has probably cost them 5 times what actual good chairs would have in lost productivity.
      - jrockway 7y ago
        I think it's just sticker shock from the chair manufacturer's website. The 30" monitor is the same price everywhere. The chair is $3000 and has a 19 week lead time on the website... or it's $300 from some random eBay seller.
  - michaelt 7y ago
    A company doesn't lose control of their spending the first time they incur expense that's 1% of an employee's salary. It happens the fortieth time they do it - but the logic is the same as the first time they do it. Then all of a sudden it's a $$$$ chair at a $$$$ desk with a $$$$ computer and a $$$$ screen and a $$$$ company phone and $$$ in snacks and $$$ in soft drinks and $$$ in beer and $$$$ in lunches and $$$$ in dinners and $$$$ in training and $$$$ in conferences and $$$ in free laundry and $$$$ in parking and $$$$ in the annual corporate ski retreat and $$$$$ in premium office space, and of course we extend the same benefits to the janitors and receptionists, they're employees too, and of course we drink beer and play foosball on company time that's team-building....
    - cma 7y ago
      The chair lasts much more than a year. 12 year warranty.
    - smsm42 7y ago
      If you have a decent CFO, all that would probably be single-digit percentage of salary costs, and you'd know what digit it is. It's not rocket surgery to know all these costs. If you don't, get a decent CFO :) Premium office space OTOH can really hurt. I am still wondering why so many companies suffer SF office space prices only for their workers to commute into SF because they can't afford SF living costs either. Maybe stop hurting each other and just relocate within 20-30 miles where it's less insane (though still quite insane by non-SV standards...)?
    - Benjammer 7y ago
      Just because the finance team has an eating disorder, doesn't mean I should have to go on a diet. Investing top dollar in a chair, monitor, work machine, light snacks and drinks is plenty. I'm not the one asking for new offices and sponsored ski retreats, give me a break.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      Furniture isn't a big deal because it's not a reoccurring expense. The problem is hiring more people than you need and then having to order even more expensive furniture that you don't need. If you have a small business that only needs 20 people then buying 20 chairs just doesn't matter. But if VCs steer you into hiring 70 more people for the sake of growth then of course all that furniture is going to bog you down.
- qeternity 7y ago
  Disagree. Good chairs are one of the best investments you can make in a tech co (Want people at their desks working? Give them nice desks...it’s peanuts in the grand scheme) And beer, Red Bull, etc are rounding errors. A good engineer costs $150+ and another $50+ in overhead. Let’s presume perks like beer and red bull costs at the super high end $1k/year/FTE. You’re increasing costs by 0.5% or less but building an atmosphere people want to work in.
- djrogers 7y ago
  > I mostly agree, but it says a lot about a company's command of their expenses. To me it says they either a) value their employees, or b) want to look like a. Either one makes for a better workplace than 'justify every time you used the copier in the last 2 weeks, and have the spreadsheet updated with that info by COB'.
- smsm42 7y ago
  Not really. If you pay a person six-figures for (hopefully) multiple years as a developer, spending $1K one-time for a decent chair (that also can be reused if that person leaves) and how much? let's be really generous, $50 per week on beer? - which would be less than 1% of the cost of the salary by the most generous calculation - doesn't seem like something you should cut corners on. And I don't think anybody spends nearly close to $50 per week per person on beer. These things are pocket change compared to salary costs. Cutting costs on them is like buying a Mazerati but asking that the windshield cleaning liquid would be of the cheapest brand because you're cutting costs.
- Lazare 7y ago
  I don't think I could disagree more. See, eg: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... (And this comment in particular: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/#comment-2163 https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...) Or: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-09/why-getting-rid-of-free-office-snacks-doesn-t-come-cheap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-09/why-getti... Or especially: https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2013/05/introducing-lefkowitzs-law-of-corporate-financial-health/ https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2013/05/introducing-lefkowitzs-la... Nice chairs and free snacks are a trivial expense, and are very helpful for generating a specific type of company culture (eg, if important people have nice chairs, and everyone has nice chairs, then we're all, on some level, important. Trivial, but these things matter). Cutting them either means: 1. The company is going bust as we speak. They've either already made meaningful cuts (ie, firing people) or they're about to start, and they're now now doing the metaphorical equivalent of stealing pennies from fountains to try and make rent. You should leave for somewhere not imploding. 2. The company culture is changing, and it has been deemed important to remind engineering that they aren't that important. Making sure important people have nicer chairs than uninmportant people is an easy way to demonstrate this. Again, you should leave before the company finishes turning into a Dilbert-esque hell. Either way, cutting snacks will not, under any circumstances, fix whatever is wrong (again, they're too cheap) and it's usually a leading indicator of bigger problems. So when you say: > It says a lot about a company's command of their expenses. I sort of agree - it tells you they have no command of their expenses. :)
samstave 7y ago
Are you not familiar with the addage: "The success of your company is inversely proportional to the number of Aeron Chairs you have" --- We designed and built out (first dot com bubble) an office in SF for Quokka Sports. They got a crap ton of VC$ and they built out this really nice brick and timber office, fish-bowl conf rooms etc... They crashed and burned BEFORE they were even able to move into this amazing office, near the Ferry Building in SF.... I had to go there and take a bunch of pics of the newly built office, but which was never moved into. They had a FUCKING BOATLOAD of Aeron chairs... all stacked up to the ceilings in all the conference rooms. Those chairs at the time were EDIT They were 700, not ~$2,000 a piece - and they had like ~500 of them or so.... So, that used to be an actual measurement of fiscal responsibility in startups 20 years ago; How many Aeron Chairs did you buy with VC Money. To the downvoters: https://slashdot.org/story/01/08/07/2314239/aeron-chairs-as-stupidity-barometers#comments https://slashdot.org/story/01/08/07/2314239/aeron-chairs-as-...

bdcravens 7y ago

> Beer and chairs are not a cost worth mentioning. I mostly agree, but it says a lot about a company's command of their expenses.

UncleMeat 7y ago
Does it? An Aeron chair runs like $1000. Probably less in bulk. <1% of an engineer's salary. It's in the noise.
- fyz 7y ago
  Is it? The parent poster was specifically trying to say there is signal -- vs just noise -- in purchases like aeron chairs.
- samstave 7y ago
  Please see my other comment: Are you not familiar with the addage: "The success of your company is inversely proportional to the number of Aeron Chairs you have" --- We designed and built out (first dot com bubble) an office in SF for Quokka Sports. They got a crap ton of VC$ and they built out this really nice brick and timber office, fish-bowl conf rooms etc... They crashed and burned BEFORE they were even able to move into this amazing office, near the Ferry Building in SF.... I had to go there and take a bunch of pics of the newly built office, but which was never moved into. They had a FUCKING BOATLOAD of Aeron chairs... all stacked up to the ceilings in all the conference rooms. Those chairs at the time were ~$2,000 a piece - and they had like ~500 of them or so.... So, that used to be an actual measurement of fiscal responsibility in startups 20 years ago; How many Aeron Chairs did you buy with VC Money.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- jrockway 7y ago
  They are even cheaper when you buy them from failed startups. Used chairs are like used cars; they work great, but they lose 80% of their value when you drive them off the furniture delivery truck. eBay is filled with these. I bought one (not an Aeron, but a Teknion Contessa which I like better) for $300 from eBay and the proprietor brought it to my apartment at 9am the next day. If I ever start a company with an office, I will just get a mishmash of those. Essential to the creation of software, and costs less than a couple hours of engineering time. (Aerons are great chairs and are about the same price on eBay. Plus these people with listings on eBay usually have a stash in a warehouse somewhere and will let you go look at them and buy them in bulk. Yes, I do sometimes wonder where they all come from, but in New York, you don't ask questions you don't want to know the answer to ;)
  - Lazare 7y ago
    Yeah. I quite like the company I work for, and they do a lot of things right on this front, and cut no corners on developer machines, extra monitors, etc, but... ...they went for really crap chairs. I don't really understand the logic. They're uncomfortable, and they're falling apart after a couple of years. The amount of time the engineering team has spent talking about them, complaining about them, and stealing still-working ones from other desks when theirs breaks has probably cost them 5 times what actual good chairs would have in lost productivity.
    - jrockway 7y ago
      I think it's just sticker shock from the chair manufacturer's website. The 30" monitor is the same price everywhere. The chair is $3000 and has a 19 week lead time on the website... or it's $300 from some random eBay seller.
- michaelt 7y ago
  A company doesn't lose control of their spending the first time they incur expense that's 1% of an employee's salary. It happens the fortieth time they do it - but the logic is the same as the first time they do it. Then all of a sudden it's a $$$$ chair at a $$$$ desk with a $$$$ computer and a $$$$ screen and a $$$$ company phone and $$$ in snacks and $$$ in soft drinks and $$$ in beer and $$$$ in lunches and $$$$ in dinners and $$$$ in training and $$$$ in conferences and $$$ in free laundry and $$$$ in parking and $$$$ in the annual corporate ski retreat and $$$$$ in premium office space, and of course we extend the same benefits to the janitors and receptionists, they're employees too, and of course we drink beer and play foosball on company time that's team-building....
  - cma 7y ago
    The chair lasts much more than a year. 12 year warranty.
  - smsm42 7y ago
    If you have a decent CFO, all that would probably be single-digit percentage of salary costs, and you'd know what digit it is. It's not rocket surgery to know all these costs. If you don't, get a decent CFO :) Premium office space OTOH can really hurt. I am still wondering why so many companies suffer SF office space prices only for their workers to commute into SF because they can't afford SF living costs either. Maybe stop hurting each other and just relocate within 20-30 miles where it's less insane (though still quite insane by non-SV standards...)?
  - Benjammer 7y ago
    Just because the finance team has an eating disorder, doesn't mean I should have to go on a diet. Investing top dollar in a chair, monitor, work machine, light snacks and drinks is plenty. I'm not the one asking for new offices and sponsored ski retreats, give me a break.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    Furniture isn't a big deal because it's not a reoccurring expense. The problem is hiring more people than you need and then having to order even more expensive furniture that you don't need. If you have a small business that only needs 20 people then buying 20 chairs just doesn't matter. But if VCs steer you into hiring 70 more people for the sake of growth then of course all that furniture is going to bog you down.
qeternity 7y ago
Disagree. Good chairs are one of the best investments you can make in a tech co (Want people at their desks working? Give them nice desks...it’s peanuts in the grand scheme) And beer, Red Bull, etc are rounding errors. A good engineer costs $150+ and another $50+ in overhead. Let’s presume perks like beer and red bull costs at the super high end $1k/year/FTE. You’re increasing costs by 0.5% or less but building an atmosphere people want to work in.
djrogers 7y ago
> I mostly agree, but it says a lot about a company's command of their expenses. To me it says they either a) value their employees, or b) want to look like a. Either one makes for a better workplace than 'justify every time you used the copier in the last 2 weeks, and have the spreadsheet updated with that info by COB'.
smsm42 7y ago
Not really. If you pay a person six-figures for (hopefully) multiple years as a developer, spending $1K one-time for a decent chair (that also can be reused if that person leaves) and how much? let's be really generous, $50 per week on beer? - which would be less than 1% of the cost of the salary by the most generous calculation - doesn't seem like something you should cut corners on. And I don't think anybody spends nearly close to $50 per week per person on beer. These things are pocket change compared to salary costs. Cutting costs on them is like buying a Mazerati but asking that the windshield cleaning liquid would be of the cheapest brand because you're cutting costs.
Lazare 7y ago
I don't think I could disagree more. See, eg: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... (And this comment in particular: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/#comment-2163 https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...) Or: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-09/why-getting-rid-of-free-office-snacks-doesn-t-come-cheap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-09/why-getti... Or especially: https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2013/05/introducing-lefkowitzs-law-of-corporate-financial-health/ https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2013/05/introducing-lefkowitzs-la... Nice chairs and free snacks are a trivial expense, and are very helpful for generating a specific type of company culture (eg, if important people have nice chairs, and everyone has nice chairs, then we're all, on some level, important. Trivial, but these things matter). Cutting them either means: 1. The company is going bust as we speak. They've either already made meaningful cuts (ie, firing people) or they're about to start, and they're now now doing the metaphorical equivalent of stealing pennies from fountains to try and make rent. You should leave for somewhere not imploding. 2. The company culture is changing, and it has been deemed important to remind engineering that they aren't that important. Making sure important people have nicer chairs than uninmportant people is an easy way to demonstrate this. Again, you should leave before the company finishes turning into a Dilbert-esque hell. Either way, cutting snacks will not, under any circumstances, fix whatever is wrong (again, they're too cheap) and it's usually a leading indicator of bigger problems. So when you say: > It says a lot about a company's command of their expenses. I sort of agree - it tells you they have no command of their expenses. :)

samstave 7y ago

Are you not familiar with the addage: "The success of your company is inversely proportional to the number of Aeron Chairs you have" --- We designed and built out (first dot com bubble) an office in SF for Quokka Sports. They got a crap ton of VC$ and they built out this really nice brick and timber office, fish-bowl conf rooms etc... They crashed and burned BEFORE they were even able to move into this amazing office, near the Ferry Building in SF.... I had to go there and take a bunch of pics of the newly built office, but which was never moved into. They had a FUCKING BOATLOAD of Aeron chairs... all stacked up to the ceilings in all the conference rooms. Those chairs at the time were EDIT They were 700, not ~$2,000 a piece - and they had like ~500 of them or so.... So, that used to be an actual measurement of fiscal responsibility in startups 20 years ago; How many Aeron Chairs did you buy with VC Money. To the downvoters: https://slashdot.org/story/01/08/07/2314239/aeron-chairs-as-stupidity-barometers#comments https://slashdot.org/story/01/08/07/2314239/aeron-chairs-as-...