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This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the co

This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital mechanics. And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these processes.

duxup 7y ago
I think you can recognize that when you see victims get out of abusive situations, it is the victim is the one who ultimately took the decisive action (abusers just generally don't stop doing that on their own...) as a fact, and still recognize how difficult it is, and you can even call for MORE / better programs (that's what I was working in ...), and there isn't any inherent blame or conflict there.
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  I appreciate that you brought your own perspective to the problem with your comment. I would have liked to have seen more clarity on how victims could be helped to choose to escape.
tw04 7y ago
I'm sorry but this is a pot/kettle situation. What's more HN than pointing out that all of the things society is doing to fix the problem are useless? Then not actually providing a single solution to what you claim is a horrible problem. Having had a relative go through one of the programs you mentioned above successfully - on top of having friends who work for the institutions you claim are setup to do everything BUT help - I consider your response more offensive than his. Do you have some hard examples of "it's impossible to get any help from these programs" or are you just another "government is inefficient and useless, we need to eliminate it" libertarians?
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  This thread is not the appropriate place to propose a policy solution because the parent article is about a sad topic with lots of terrible suffering. To make policy proposals here would be insensitive. And, no, I'm not a libertarian. I think that dysfunctional organizations are a moral problem that we must strive to solve, collectively. The free market will not.
carapace 7y ago
To me it seems like you're falling into the trap of thinking that poverty somehow diminishes the agency and responsibility of the person.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  poverty somehow diminishes the agency But it does. It starts with the deposit for a new roof over the head.
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  Poverty does two things to us: limits our degrees of freedom (available choices) and diminishes our decision-making capacity (a famine/crisis response[1]). In extreme cases, poverty leads to sleep deprivation in which we cannot make even basic rational decisions. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity
  - carapace 7y ago
    I've been poor most of my life. I don't need to read a book to know that it sucks. I would say that wealth enhances life, not that poverty necessarily diminishes it. The OP's point stands: most people who choose to stay with their abuser are not starving and sleep-deprived to the point of being unable to even have a choice, eh? There's something else going on. (Are there no wealthy people who fail to leave abusers?) Anyhow, the question you raise in a sib comment is more important: how can we help victims of abuse choose (and succeed) to leave their abusers?
    - jasondclinton 7y ago
      Thanks for sharing your perspective. As it happens, I also grew up poor. I found the book extremely interesting so I wouldn't discount it just because you had that experience.
      - carapace 7y ago
55555 7y ago
What percent of unwillingness to leave abusive situations is truly due to poverty? I would have guessed the vast majority was due to love, self esteem, sunk cost, etc.
- retrac 7y ago
  Remember that in at least some social classes, women still have much lower earning potential than men. The traditional dynamic of the breadwinner husband who works a job that pays relatively well, and the wife who is a homemaker or works part-time for much lower pay, is definitely not dead. For an older woman without much education and job experience, the prospect of striking out on her own economically can be quite bleak.
nabnob 7y ago
As someone who does a lot of work in the area of stopping abusers, and also has my own experiences as a victim of an abuser - for a long time I placed all the responsibility and agency on the man who abused me and didn't want to see that I actually made bad choices and ignored early red flags when I was involved with him. This doesn't mean that it was my fault that he was abusive, it just means that I can make better choices in the future and not let this happen to me again. When I used to view this abuser as entirely responsible for his abuse, it made me feel like I was helpless to prevent this from happening to me again. Abusers tend to target women who are insecure and don't know how to stand up for themselves and set boundaries, so I absolutely believe that teaching women how to notice red flags (ignoring boundaries, gaslighting, blatant disrespect, lies) can help keep them safe. It's definitely more important to make sure abusers face consequences, but I think it's mechanical to ignore that women who are victimized can learn skills to protect themselves as well. Edit: There's a dialectical relationship between the abusive man and his female victim. The abusive man has more power initially, but in order for the victim to leave the abusive relationship, she has to choose to prioritize her own safety and well-being (rather than listen to the abuser's manipulation). A lot of female victims tend to be victims of multiple men, so a solution to domestic abuse must address both aspects, and it is possible to address the victim's agency in an empathetic and caring way without insinuating that she is at fault for being a victim. There are resources that address this, like Lundy Barcroft's "Why Does He Do That?" In my case, I really had no concept of boundaries or what a healthy relationship looked like until I was well into adulthood. I only realized this four years after I was in an abusive relationship. Also, I definitely think that the main priority should be ensuring that abusers face consequences, and the justice system completely fails victims of domestic violence in this area. Without this, telling women to learn better skills is just victim blaming.
- throwanem 7y ago
  Not to take away from anything you've said, but because I badly needed to hear it once, and I'm not alone in that: men can be abused, too, and women can be abusive. If you're a guy in a relationship that feels like it might be abusive, but you're in the habit of thinking that can't be a real feeling - think again, and talk to someone. (If you can't think of anyone else to talk to, my email's in my profile, and I'll do my best.)
watwut 7y ago
I remember reading that it takes on average 7 attempts for domestic victim to leave till it stucks. They stay and come back for a lot of reasons - practical and emotional. Practically, leaving is the moat dangerous time, that is when victim get killed or attacked the most. Shelter mean isolation from her contacts and for kids and their friends. Oftentimes there is money. Emotionally, there is hope that "he changed". There is trauma bonding that plays against leaving. Victim believes she deserves it. Victim is socialized into dysfunctional patterns that make going back to him seem as right action or make it hard to be alone or with safe partner . And often it is that victims perceives red flags warnings that makes others break up as normal masculinity - meaning she/he ends in another bad relationship right after. There is a lot more on not leaving then just programs faults.
dang 7y ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  You don't seem to realize this, but this is very subjective and not something that can actually be followed and meet whatever judgement you had in mind when picking on that comment. You've done it to me too a couple of times and I decided to just ignore it since I cannot possibly satisfy your subjective judgement, but you are penalizing comments now.
  - dang 7y ago
    I'm happy to agree in principle that there's a lot of interpretation involved. In this case, I'm not sure it's so subjective. The comment broke the site guideline against name-calling ("This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week"), and chose an interpretation ("personal responsibility shaming") that clearly wasn't the strongest plausible.

duxup 7y ago

I think you can recognize that when you see victims get out of abusive situations, it is the victim is the one who ultimately took the decisive action (abusers just generally don't stop doing that on their own...) as a fact, and still recognize how difficult it is, and you can even call for MORE / better programs (that's what I was working in ...), and there isn't any inherent blame or conflict there.

jasondclinton 7y ago
I appreciate that you brought your own perspective to the problem with your comment. I would have liked to have seen more clarity on how victims could be helped to choose to escape.

tw04 7y ago

I'm sorry but this is a pot/kettle situation. What's more HN than pointing out that all of the things society is doing to fix the problem are useless? Then not actually providing a single solution to what you claim is a horrible problem. Having had a relative go through one of the programs you mentioned above successfully - on top of having friends who work for the institutions you claim are setup to do everything BUT help - I consider your response more offensive than his. Do you have some hard examples of "it's impossible to get any help from these programs" or are you just another "government is inefficient and useless, we need to eliminate it" libertarians?

jasondclinton 7y ago
This thread is not the appropriate place to propose a policy solution because the parent article is about a sad topic with lots of terrible suffering. To make policy proposals here would be insensitive. And, no, I'm not a libertarian. I think that dysfunctional organizations are a moral problem that we must strive to solve, collectively. The free market will not.

carapace 7y ago

To me it seems like you're falling into the trap of thinking that poverty somehow diminishes the agency and responsibility of the person.

HarryHirsch 7y ago
poverty somehow diminishes the agency But it does. It starts with the deposit for a new roof over the head.
jasondclinton 7y ago
Poverty does two things to us: limits our degrees of freedom (available choices) and diminishes our decision-making capacity (a famine/crisis response[1]). In extreme cases, poverty leads to sleep deprivation in which we cannot make even basic rational decisions. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity
- carapace 7y ago
  I've been poor most of my life. I don't need to read a book to know that it sucks. I would say that wealth enhances life, not that poverty necessarily diminishes it. The OP's point stands: most people who choose to stay with their abuser are not starving and sleep-deprived to the point of being unable to even have a choice, eh? There's something else going on. (Are there no wealthy people who fail to leave abusers?) Anyhow, the question you raise in a sib comment is more important: how can we help victims of abuse choose (and succeed) to leave their abusers?
  - jasondclinton 7y ago
    Thanks for sharing your perspective. As it happens, I also grew up poor. I found the book extremely interesting so I wouldn't discount it just because you had that experience.
    - carapace 7y ago

55555 7y ago

What percent of unwillingness to leave abusive situations is truly due to poverty? I would have guessed the vast majority was due to love, self esteem, sunk cost, etc.

retrac 7y ago
Remember that in at least some social classes, women still have much lower earning potential than men. The traditional dynamic of the breadwinner husband who works a job that pays relatively well, and the wife who is a homemaker or works part-time for much lower pay, is definitely not dead. For an older woman without much education and job experience, the prospect of striking out on her own economically can be quite bleak.

nabnob 7y ago

As someone who does a lot of work in the area of stopping abusers, and also has my own experiences as a victim of an abuser - for a long time I placed all the responsibility and agency on the man who abused me and didn't want to see that I actually made bad choices and ignored early red flags when I was involved with him. This doesn't mean that it was my fault that he was abusive, it just means that I can make better choices in the future and not let this happen to me again. When I used to view this abuser as entirely responsible for his abuse, it made me feel like I was helpless to prevent this from happening to me again. Abusers tend to target women who are insecure and don't know how to stand up for themselves and set boundaries, so I absolutely believe that teaching women how to notice red flags (ignoring boundaries, gaslighting, blatant disrespect, lies) can help keep them safe. It's definitely more important to make sure abusers face consequences, but I think it's mechanical to ignore that women who are victimized can learn skills to protect themselves as well. Edit: There's a dialectical relationship between the abusive man and his female victim. The abusive man has more power initially, but in order for the victim to leave the abusive relationship, she has to choose to prioritize her own safety and well-being (rather than listen to the abuser's manipulation). A lot of female victims tend to be victims of multiple men, so a solution to domestic abuse must address both aspects, and it is possible to address the victim's agency in an empathetic and caring way without insinuating that she is at fault for being a victim. There are resources that address this, like Lundy Barcroft's "Why Does He Do That?" In my case, I really had no concept of boundaries or what a healthy relationship looked like until I was well into adulthood. I only realized this four years after I was in an abusive relationship. Also, I definitely think that the main priority should be ensuring that abusers face consequences, and the justice system completely fails victims of domestic violence in this area. Without this, telling women to learn better skills is just victim blaming.

throwanem 7y ago
Not to take away from anything you've said, but because I badly needed to hear it once, and I'm not alone in that: men can be abused, too, and women can be abusive. If you're a guy in a relationship that feels like it might be abusive, but you're in the habit of thinking that can't be a real feeling - think again, and talk to someone. (If you can't think of anyone else to talk to, my email's in my profile, and I'll do my best.)

watwut 7y ago

I remember reading that it takes on average 7 attempts for domestic victim to leave till it stucks. They stay and come back for a lot of reasons - practical and emotional. Practically, leaving is the moat dangerous time, that is when victim get killed or attacked the most. Shelter mean isolation from her contacts and for kids and their friends. Oftentimes there is money. Emotionally, there is hope that "he changed". There is trauma bonding that plays against leaving. Victim believes she deserves it. Victim is socialized into dysfunctional patterns that make going back to him seem as right action or make it hard to be alone or with safe partner . And often it is that victims perceives red flags warnings that makes others break up as normal masculinity - meaning she/he ends in another bad relationship right after. There is a lot more on not leaving then just programs faults.

dang 7y ago

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

zzzcpan 7y ago
You don't seem to realize this, but this is very subjective and not something that can actually be followed and meet whatever judgement you had in mind when picking on that comment. You've done it to me too a couple of times and I decided to just ignore it since I cannot possibly satisfy your subjective judgement, but you are penalizing comments now.
- dang 7y ago
  I'm happy to agree in principle that there's a lot of interpretation involved. In this case, I'm not sure it's so subjective. The comment broke the site guideline against name-calling ("This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week"), and chose an interpretation ("personal responsibility shaming") that clearly wasn't the strongest plausible.