7 ms·

I am a strong believer in the universal mask protocol for controlling COVID-19. I've created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to

I am a strong believer in the universal mask protocol for controlling COVID-19. I've created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to help spread the message.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
iratewizard 7y ago
Thank you for this. I wish it was as obvious to others as it is to pretty much anyone who has spent time in East Asia. Masks and the culture of being polite about not spreading disease would be a game changer in the US.
mkbkn 7y ago
100% agree. Thanks for creating the website. I'll spread the website link in my circle.
ysw0 7y ago
This is brilliant.
xref 7y ago
I’m interested to see if the numbers from Japan that are prevalent on your site hold up. They are doing even less testing than America... https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronavirus-explainers/2020/3/28/21196382/japan-coronavirus-cases-covid-19-deaths-quarantine https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronavirus-explainers/2020/3/2...
gombosg 7y ago
It's OK that your 'belief' contradicts official WHO guidance but that 'MASKS-NO MASKS' graph went a bit too far as a misstatement (i.e. "presenting facts in an alternative way"). Let me paste the official advice here for educating readers: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2... > If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection. > Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing. > Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water. > If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly. The kind of misinforming you are doing is dangerous in these times, especially that the official WHO standpoint is that wearing masks in a wrong way (using it multiple times, touching or taking off in a wrong way) is worse than not wearing them at all during already decreased social encounters (i.e. already staying at home, and going out at most for groceries). Or are you stating that the WHO is lying? Those Asian cultures have a different epidemic curve not due to mask wearing, but because a totally different social structure, prior experience concerning epidemics, preparedness, attitude towards authority & emergency measures and other factors. So it's a fallacy of cherry picking to say that it's 'because they wear masks and all our authorities are wrong'.
- cmrx64 7y ago
  > Or are you stating that the WHO is lying? yes, the page does indeed state that. what do you think of the cited research, vs nitpicking the hero image?
  - gombosg 7y ago
    Out of the 7 references, most of them are journalistic articles and not actual scientific research. The question is 'does wearing masks out in the public decrease virus spread, when social distancing measures are already in effect?'. One linked (not cited...) research examines virus transmission and effects of mask use in a hospital setting - irrelevant for the question. Another examines filtration properties of homemade masks, and concludes that they have little if any effect if not used with other measures, and doesn't (!!!) recommend their use. A third one, a SCMP journalistic article refers to a Chinese scientific journal article that has been retracted. I don't find these as very compelling arguments.
    - cmrx64 7y ago
      https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoO... (linked on the page) was what I was referring to, not the list of references which I agree are not very compelling. SSC did a writeup too: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t... Thanks for sharing more detailed thoughts!
- javagram 7y ago
  WHO’s statement itself says that the mask is helpful when you are caring for someone with a suspected infection, therefore it admits the mask can provide some level of infection protection. It likewise says the mask should be worn by someone coughing or sneezing, showing that it protects others from your germs. The obvious answer to the “wearing masks in a wrong way” is to teach people to use and dispose of them correctly, just like we don’t dismiss hand washing because many people don’t know how to do it. I think these statements by health authorities are simply because there has been no RCT of mask wearing among the general public and for them lack of evidence is equivalent to evidence of absence.
ilogik 7y ago
what happened to south coreea? did they only start wearing masks later? https://www.xkcd.com/552/ https://www.xkcd.com/552/
- blackoil 7y ago
  Search for 'Patient 31 Korea'.
perf1 7y ago
Aren't all the Countries that are doing better, also countries that eat overall less carbs? I am a strong believer that Diabetes and Insulin resistance makes a huge difference.
- nodamage 7y ago
  I mean all those countries eat a ton of rice. I would not consider any of them to have low carb diets.
sschueller 7y ago
Masks can also result in a false sense of security causing people to ignoring physical distancing and washing hands. I'd much rather have people keep their distance and wash their hands regularly than wearing masks which may or may not have any effect depending on material/age/fit etc.
fock 7y ago
well, the message has arrived here. the masks haven't ;). the bad thing about the whole issue is that these are low-labor products (just look at youtube for videos), so nothing would prevent a business from producing them domestically in the US/Europe... Unfortunately it's low-margin/low-tech as well, so we optimized it away...
- maxerickson 7y ago
  3M makes 1 million N95 masks every day in the US, about 1/3 of their global production. The problem is that it isn't enough to respond to the situation.
teruakohatu 7y ago
I am not arguing against wearing masks but your masks/no-masks graphic at the top does not show the full story. I don't know why you consider China to be a non-mask wearing culture. There is plenty of evidence China is a mask wearing culture. Below [1] are articles from before 2015 about mask wearing in China. Anecdotally I have plenty of Chinese national friends and colleagues who wear masks. As far as your mask wearing group goes, South Korea's trajectory is much like Western countries, which will also level off eventually. Hong Kong and Singapore are city states and are not comparable with large countries. Evidence China is a mask wearing culture before 2015 (an arbitrary date to ensure no COVID-19 related articles): https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/10/pollutionwatch-air-pollution-face-masks-protection https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/10/pollutio... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/world/asia/in-china-sun-protection-can-include-a-mask.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/world/asia/in-china-sun-p... https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-surgical-masks-in-public/ https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-sur... https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20090916/best-swine-flu-mask-n95-respirator#1 https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20090916/best-swine-...
- oefrha 7y ago
  The graph shows first 4 weeks only. That means the early stage of infection in China when the virus basically spread unhindered; if you extend the curve to after emergency was declared nationally then you would absolutely see the effect of masks. Edit: First 4 weeks after the 100th case actually. But the numbers are clearly delayed and reflect transmission that happened much earlier, and you can already see the curve leveling off in the graph.
- gilbetron 7y ago
  The graphic seems a bit misleading, but China, Malaysia, and India seem to be deliberately not circled, meaning they are considered Mask wearing, or at least not "No masks". It could be more clearly presented, though.
Waterluvian 7y ago
Maybe. You may also just be leading the way as a cargo cultist. Maybe there's something else happening that mask wearing is a signal of. But at the moment your site is a poster child for "correlation implies causation". I'm rather shocked at how much thoughtless agreement there is in this comment thread given the website makes only one incomplete argument in the case for masks. Consider that in absence of real science, your site might do harm with such a bold claim.
voldacar 7y ago
You seriously think a bedsheet will stop the coronavirus, which is about 100nm wide?
- varjag 7y ago
  An N95 mask doesn't "stop" coronavirus either, that's the 95 part of it. A bedsheet would absolutely reduce viral load you spread, even at naïve assumption of the size - simply because it's an obstacle that inevitably catches some of particulate and reduces the airflow range. But coronavirus is spread in suspended aerosol particles 3µm or so in size, which are filtered out even more efficiently by a wide range of materials.
- wonnage 7y ago
  This is a common misconception. The virus doesn’t arrive as individual viruses. If it were purely a matter of filtering 100nm particles, a n95 mask wouldn’t be very effective either - the ratings are for particles 0.3um or larger. Luckily, people don’t generally sneeze out plumes of pure virus. They’re embedded in much larger particles, and even cotton has some benefit: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-masks-n95-surgical-mask/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-ma...
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    N95 masks aren't very effective either, especially when they don't seal well. When they become moist, they're useless. What your cloth mask is doing is to effectively spread a giant fishing net to collect all the particles around you. The moisture in your breath will help keep the viruses inside intact. You'll be constantly breathing air through that, loosening some of those particles and inhaling them. The idea that the mask would protect you makes no sense. If you're already infected, it's a different story. The mask will reduce the amount of virus you'll be spreading around.
rndgermandude 7y ago
You might mean well, but what you did is spreading of misinformation and make the world a little worse. I would urge you to take down your website, but like e.g. anti-vaxers who by and large are well meaning as well, I doubt you will.
m4rtink 7y ago
Nice! Really, masks can be hand made & there is really no reason one should not be wearing one during the pandemic. As for hand made mask npt protecting you enough - well, this is actually a secondary concern. The biggest problem are people being infected that do not know that yet & if everyone has a mask this is much less of a problem, as they will contaminante much smaller area & the chance of them infecting others go way down. The Czech government made masks mandatory in public more than two weeks ago & Slovak government followed suit quickly afterward. So far it seems to be helping, so hopefully more states will follow suit.
tuxone 7y ago
Like your site, though I would suggest to put more weight on the correct use of the mask. Since the lockdown, when I go out for food supply I see plenty of people touching the mask, adjusting it, moving it on the forehead or chin just to answer a phonecall. Considering all these activities mask are doing more harm than good. Once interpersonal distance limit and hands hygiene are observed you are quite good to go. Then there are all those situations (eg. healthcare) where interpersonal distance cannot be observed and that's why countries are adopting measures in order to prioritize the adoption of the mask, especially with the shortage we are facing.
paulmcpazzi 7y ago
If you look at the standard equipment used in healthcare you'll notice that everyone wears mask and eye protection (goggles or face shields), because the virus can also transmit through the eye. I'm not saying that masks are not effective, but I would be very careful with certain affirmations, such as: "going in public without a mask in a pandemic is like riding a motorcycle without a helmet", it's more like: "going in public with a mask only covering your mouth and nose is like walking through a fire while wearing a fire proximity suit and sandals".
mensetmanusman 7y ago
This would work in an ideal situation. We would need 10 years of manufacturing to try this experiment for a month on a global scale.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

I am a strong believer in the universal mask protocol for controlling COVID-19. I've created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to help spread the message.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

iratewizard 7y ago

Thank you for this. I wish it was as obvious to others as it is to pretty much anyone who has spent time in East Asia. Masks and the culture of being polite about not spreading disease would be a game changer in the US.

mkbkn 7y ago

100% agree. Thanks for creating the website. I'll spread the website link in my circle.

ysw0 7y ago

This is brilliant.

xref 7y ago

I’m interested to see if the numbers from Japan that are prevalent on your site hold up. They are doing even less testing than America... https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronavirus-explainers/2020/3/28/21196382/japan-coronavirus-cases-covid-19-deaths-quarantine https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronavirus-explainers/2020/3/2...

gombosg 7y ago

It's OK that your 'belief' contradicts official WHO guidance but that 'MASKS-NO MASKS' graph went a bit too far as a misstatement (i.e. "presenting facts in an alternative way"). Let me paste the official advice here for educating readers: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2... > If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection. > Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing. > Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water. > If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly. The kind of misinforming you are doing is dangerous in these times, especially that the official WHO standpoint is that wearing masks in a wrong way (using it multiple times, touching or taking off in a wrong way) is worse than not wearing them at all during already decreased social encounters (i.e. already staying at home, and going out at most for groceries). Or are you stating that the WHO is lying? Those Asian cultures have a different epidemic curve not due to mask wearing, but because a totally different social structure, prior experience concerning epidemics, preparedness, attitude towards authority & emergency measures and other factors. So it's a fallacy of cherry picking to say that it's 'because they wear masks and all our authorities are wrong'.

cmrx64 7y ago
> Or are you stating that the WHO is lying? yes, the page does indeed state that. what do you think of the cited research, vs nitpicking the hero image?
- gombosg 7y ago
  Out of the 7 references, most of them are journalistic articles and not actual scientific research. The question is 'does wearing masks out in the public decrease virus spread, when social distancing measures are already in effect?'. One linked (not cited...) research examines virus transmission and effects of mask use in a hospital setting - irrelevant for the question. Another examines filtration properties of homemade masks, and concludes that they have little if any effect if not used with other measures, and doesn't (!!!) recommend their use. A third one, a SCMP journalistic article refers to a Chinese scientific journal article that has been retracted. I don't find these as very compelling arguments.
  - cmrx64 7y ago
    https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoO... (linked on the page) was what I was referring to, not the list of references which I agree are not very compelling. SSC did a writeup too: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t... Thanks for sharing more detailed thoughts!
javagram 7y ago
WHO’s statement itself says that the mask is helpful when you are caring for someone with a suspected infection, therefore it admits the mask can provide some level of infection protection. It likewise says the mask should be worn by someone coughing or sneezing, showing that it protects others from your germs. The obvious answer to the “wearing masks in a wrong way” is to teach people to use and dispose of them correctly, just like we don’t dismiss hand washing because many people don’t know how to do it. I think these statements by health authorities are simply because there has been no RCT of mask wearing among the general public and for them lack of evidence is equivalent to evidence of absence.

ilogik 7y ago

what happened to south coreea? did they only start wearing masks later? https://www.xkcd.com/552/ https://www.xkcd.com/552/

blackoil 7y ago
Search for 'Patient 31 Korea'.

perf1 7y ago

Aren't all the Countries that are doing better, also countries that eat overall less carbs? I am a strong believer that Diabetes and Insulin resistance makes a huge difference.

nodamage 7y ago
I mean all those countries eat a ton of rice. I would not consider any of them to have low carb diets.

sschueller 7y ago

Masks can also result in a false sense of security causing people to ignoring physical distancing and washing hands. I'd much rather have people keep their distance and wash their hands regularly than wearing masks which may or may not have any effect depending on material/age/fit etc.

fock 7y ago

well, the message has arrived here. the masks haven't ;). the bad thing about the whole issue is that these are low-labor products (just look at youtube for videos), so nothing would prevent a business from producing them domestically in the US/Europe... Unfortunately it's low-margin/low-tech as well, so we optimized it away...

maxerickson 7y ago
3M makes 1 million N95 masks every day in the US, about 1/3 of their global production. The problem is that it isn't enough to respond to the situation.

teruakohatu 7y ago

I am not arguing against wearing masks but your masks/no-masks graphic at the top does not show the full story. I don't know why you consider China to be a non-mask wearing culture. There is plenty of evidence China is a mask wearing culture. Below [1] are articles from before 2015 about mask wearing in China. Anecdotally I have plenty of Chinese national friends and colleagues who wear masks. As far as your mask wearing group goes, South Korea's trajectory is much like Western countries, which will also level off eventually. Hong Kong and Singapore are city states and are not comparable with large countries. Evidence China is a mask wearing culture before 2015 (an arbitrary date to ensure no COVID-19 related articles): https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/10/pollutionwatch-air-pollution-face-masks-protection https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/10/pollutio... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/world/asia/in-china-sun-protection-can-include-a-mask.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/world/asia/in-china-sun-p... https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-surgical-masks-in-public/ https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-sur... https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20090916/best-swine-flu-mask-n95-respirator#1 https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20090916/best-swine-...

oefrha 7y ago
The graph shows first 4 weeks only. That means the early stage of infection in China when the virus basically spread unhindered; if you extend the curve to after emergency was declared nationally then you would absolutely see the effect of masks. Edit: First 4 weeks after the 100th case actually. But the numbers are clearly delayed and reflect transmission that happened much earlier, and you can already see the curve leveling off in the graph.
gilbetron 7y ago
The graphic seems a bit misleading, but China, Malaysia, and India seem to be deliberately not circled, meaning they are considered Mask wearing, or at least not "No masks". It could be more clearly presented, though.

Waterluvian 7y ago

Maybe. You may also just be leading the way as a cargo cultist. Maybe there's something else happening that mask wearing is a signal of. But at the moment your site is a poster child for "correlation implies causation". I'm rather shocked at how much thoughtless agreement there is in this comment thread given the website makes only one incomplete argument in the case for masks. Consider that in absence of real science, your site might do harm with such a bold claim.

voldacar 7y ago

You seriously think a bedsheet will stop the coronavirus, which is about 100nm wide?

varjag 7y ago
An N95 mask doesn't "stop" coronavirus either, that's the 95 part of it. A bedsheet would absolutely reduce viral load you spread, even at naïve assumption of the size - simply because it's an obstacle that inevitably catches some of particulate and reduces the airflow range. But coronavirus is spread in suspended aerosol particles 3µm or so in size, which are filtered out even more efficiently by a wide range of materials.
wonnage 7y ago
This is a common misconception. The virus doesn’t arrive as individual viruses. If it were purely a matter of filtering 100nm particles, a n95 mask wouldn’t be very effective either - the ratings are for particles 0.3um or larger. Luckily, people don’t generally sneeze out plumes of pure virus. They’re embedded in much larger particles, and even cotton has some benefit: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-masks-n95-surgical-mask/ https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-ma...
- gridlockd 7y ago
  N95 masks aren't very effective either, especially when they don't seal well. When they become moist, they're useless. What your cloth mask is doing is to effectively spread a giant fishing net to collect all the particles around you. The moisture in your breath will help keep the viruses inside intact. You'll be constantly breathing air through that, loosening some of those particles and inhaling them. The idea that the mask would protect you makes no sense. If you're already infected, it's a different story. The mask will reduce the amount of virus you'll be spreading around.

rndgermandude 7y ago

You might mean well, but what you did is spreading of misinformation and make the world a little worse. I would urge you to take down your website, but like e.g. anti-vaxers who by and large are well meaning as well, I doubt you will.

m4rtink 7y ago

Nice! Really, masks can be hand made & there is really no reason one should not be wearing one during the pandemic. As for hand made mask npt protecting you enough - well, this is actually a secondary concern. The biggest problem are people being infected that do not know that yet & if everyone has a mask this is much less of a problem, as they will contaminante much smaller area & the chance of them infecting others go way down. The Czech government made masks mandatory in public more than two weeks ago & Slovak government followed suit quickly afterward. So far it seems to be helping, so hopefully more states will follow suit.

tuxone 7y ago

Like your site, though I would suggest to put more weight on the correct use of the mask. Since the lockdown, when I go out for food supply I see plenty of people touching the mask, adjusting it, moving it on the forehead or chin just to answer a phonecall. Considering all these activities mask are doing more harm than good. Once interpersonal distance limit and hands hygiene are observed you are quite good to go. Then there are all those situations (eg. healthcare) where interpersonal distance cannot be observed and that's why countries are adopting measures in order to prioritize the adoption of the mask, especially with the shortage we are facing.

paulmcpazzi 7y ago

If you look at the standard equipment used in healthcare you'll notice that everyone wears mask and eye protection (goggles or face shields), because the virus can also transmit through the eye. I'm not saying that masks are not effective, but I would be very careful with certain affirmations, such as: "going in public without a mask in a pandemic is like riding a motorcycle without a helmet", it's more like: "going in public with a mask only covering your mouth and nose is like walking through a fire while wearing a fire proximity suit and sandals".

mensetmanusman 7y ago

This would work in an ideal situation. We would need 10 years of manufacturing to try this experiment for a month on a global scale.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]