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It's obvious that wearing a mask helps. > Don't wear a mask because they don't work > Doctors and nurses need masks because they work > ??? If anything, it

by verroq 7y ago

It's obvious that wearing a mask helps. > Don't wear a mask because they don't work > Doctors and nurses need masks because they work > ??? If anything, it prevents/reduces asymptomatic people from spreading.

brigandish 7y ago
You can tell me in 2 weeks time if that's true when the number of actual cases is impossible for the government to deny any more. As to the masks, in a clinical setting: - clinicians will likely get much closer to someone - patients are much more likely to have an infection - masks are worn properly - masks are disposed of properly - the wearers have had extensive training and experience They don't, as a salaryman might, pull down their mask to talk to you, or to sneeze so they don't have to use a new mask in the afternoon. Edit: formatting, I always forget (sorry).
- verroq 7y ago
  > clinicians will likely get much closer to someone > patients are much more likely to have an infection Most of the spread is from people that are asymptomatic. You don't know who has the virus or not. So if the argument here is that doctors and nurses are at higher risk, and need more protection, then my counter argument is that you don't know what the risk is simply because people can be asymptomatic. Secondly, masks a very effective at preventing already sick people from spreading the disease. Given the vast majority cases are asymptomatic and the infected don't even know they are sick, if everyone had masks it would dramatically reduce spread from the asymptomatic. Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. It's not about achieving 100% perfect protection, it's about some protection. Even if somebody pulled down their mask to sneeze, if everyone else had masks on then it won't be as big of a deal.
  - brigandish 7y ago
    > Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. You can supply the study for that too. From what I've read, and I've been reading as many as I can, it's not true. > verroq 4 minutes ago | parent | on: Japan set to ban entry from the U.S. as early as n... Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. It's not about achieving 100% perfect protection, it's about some protection. > Even if somebody pulled down their mask to sneeze, if everyone else had masks on then it won't be as big of a deal. This is also not true. You have to prevent transmission all day not just in one event or it's meaningless.
    - chrischen 7y ago
      Less efficient face masks (e.g., surgical or medical) also decrease exposure to aerosols of droplet nuclei to a lesser (8–12 fold) degree than N95 masks (36), and they provide protection against larger droplets. We did not determine the type of mask worn by the passengers; presumably, individually acquired masks represented a mixture of N95 and other less efficient masks. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23968983/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23968983/) Can't really tell if those people "improperly" wore the masks but most people prior to COVID-19 wore standard surgical style masks. As I stated in my previous post, doing things to limit transmission is not a binary act. Just because you can't limit transmission all day does not mean that you should not try at all. Just because we can't completely eliminate Covid-19 doesn't mean that we shouldn't flatten the curve.
      - brigandish 7y ago
        Yes, I'm reading the actual study too. It proves nothing which is why they conclude with: > We recommend a more compre- hensive intervention study to accurately estimate the pro- tective effect of face masks for preventing influenza virus transmission on long-distance flights. accurately being the operative word. > Just because you can't limit transmission all day does not mean that you should not try at all. I have not suggested not to try, only to do things that actually work and are evidence based. Would you suggest wearing an amulet? They wear those in Asia too. They have a modern version in the shops in Japan, I forget its name but it's a little bag of something you wear round your neck that they claim prevents flu transmission. > Just because we can't completely eliminate Covid-19 doesn't mean that we shouldn't flatten the curve. That's a poor comparison, of course we should flatten the curve using methods that are shown to be effective.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        > I have not suggested not to try, only to do things that actually work and are evidence based. Would you suggest wearing an amulet? They wear those in Asia too. They have a modern version in the shops in Japan, I forget its name but it's a little bag of something you wear round your neck that they claim prevents flu transmission. Ironically, this is probably how we got into this mess in the first place, because some Chinese medicine cure prescribed eating wild bat meat.
- 34679 7y ago
  Nobody uses the same arguments for handwashing, even though they would apply. It sounds like education is what's lacking, aside from masks.
  - brigandish 7y ago
    Handwashing is shown to be effective in a non-clinical setting though, and there are plenty of efforts to educate people how to handwash even though (I hope) everyone does it every day. Again, the same is not true of masks.

by verroq 7y ago

brigandish 7y ago

You can tell me in 2 weeks time if that's true when the number of actual cases is impossible for the government to deny any more. As to the masks, in a clinical setting: - clinicians will likely get much closer to someone - patients are much more likely to have an infection - masks are worn properly - masks are disposed of properly - the wearers have had extensive training and experience They don't, as a salaryman might, pull down their mask to talk to you, or to sneeze so they don't have to use a new mask in the afternoon. Edit: formatting, I always forget (sorry).

verroq 7y ago
> clinicians will likely get much closer to someone > patients are much more likely to have an infection Most of the spread is from people that are asymptomatic. You don't know who has the virus or not. So if the argument here is that doctors and nurses are at higher risk, and need more protection, then my counter argument is that you don't know what the risk is simply because people can be asymptomatic. Secondly, masks a very effective at preventing already sick people from spreading the disease. Given the vast majority cases are asymptomatic and the infected don't even know they are sick, if everyone had masks it would dramatically reduce spread from the asymptomatic. Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. It's not about achieving 100% perfect protection, it's about some protection. Even if somebody pulled down their mask to sneeze, if everyone else had masks on then it won't be as big of a deal.
- brigandish 7y ago
  > Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. You can supply the study for that too. From what I've read, and I've been reading as many as I can, it's not true. > verroq 4 minutes ago | parent | on: Japan set to ban entry from the U.S. as early as n... Even an improperly worn mask is better than no mask. It's not about achieving 100% perfect protection, it's about some protection. > Even if somebody pulled down their mask to sneeze, if everyone else had masks on then it won't be as big of a deal. This is also not true. You have to prevent transmission all day not just in one event or it's meaningless.
  - chrischen 7y ago
    Less efficient face masks (e.g., surgical or medical) also decrease exposure to aerosols of droplet nuclei to a lesser (8–12 fold) degree than N95 masks (36), and they provide protection against larger droplets. We did not determine the type of mask worn by the passengers; presumably, individually acquired masks represented a mixture of N95 and other less efficient masks. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23968983/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23968983/) Can't really tell if those people "improperly" wore the masks but most people prior to COVID-19 wore standard surgical style masks. As I stated in my previous post, doing things to limit transmission is not a binary act. Just because you can't limit transmission all day does not mean that you should not try at all. Just because we can't completely eliminate Covid-19 doesn't mean that we shouldn't flatten the curve.
    - brigandish 7y ago
      Yes, I'm reading the actual study too. It proves nothing which is why they conclude with: > We recommend a more compre- hensive intervention study to accurately estimate the pro- tective effect of face masks for preventing influenza virus transmission on long-distance flights. accurately being the operative word. > Just because you can't limit transmission all day does not mean that you should not try at all. I have not suggested not to try, only to do things that actually work and are evidence based. Would you suggest wearing an amulet? They wear those in Asia too. They have a modern version in the shops in Japan, I forget its name but it's a little bag of something you wear round your neck that they claim prevents flu transmission. > Just because we can't completely eliminate Covid-19 doesn't mean that we shouldn't flatten the curve. That's a poor comparison, of course we should flatten the curve using methods that are shown to be effective.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        > I have not suggested not to try, only to do things that actually work and are evidence based. Would you suggest wearing an amulet? They wear those in Asia too. They have a modern version in the shops in Japan, I forget its name but it's a little bag of something you wear round your neck that they claim prevents flu transmission. Ironically, this is probably how we got into this mess in the first place, because some Chinese medicine cure prescribed eating wild bat meat.
34679 7y ago
Nobody uses the same arguments for handwashing, even though they would apply. It sounds like education is what's lacking, aside from masks.
- brigandish 7y ago
  Handwashing is shown to be effective in a non-clinical setting though, and there are plenty of efforts to educate people how to handwash even though (I hope) everyone does it every day. Again, the same is not true of masks.