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Web queues are ineffective as shown by sneaker bots. You’d need actual ID style authentication of accounts. If you’re talking about order queues than people wil

by xzel 7y ago

Web queues are ineffective as shown by sneaker bots. You’d need actual ID style authentication of accounts. If you’re talking about order queues than people will stuff the queue and cancel their orders or just have more hoarding if their multiple deliveries get processed. If it’s FIFO same technical advantages will apply: bots can click much faster than humans ever will. I think the issue is more human nature and things moving to the web creating inequality between the technically adept and non-adept.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Require SMS or callback confirmation of the order slot using a non-Google/Twilio/SIP number (mobile phones or landlines both work here). Provide for one time order cancellation at no cost, cancellations after that incur a $10 cancellation fee. This should negate any technical advantage from a sophisticated entity. Queues still work, if managed properly.
- amelius 7y ago
  Cancellation costs may be against local consumer laws. But I think you wouldn't need it with upfront payment and some simple anti-hoarding rules. Also the delivery address or payment id could be used in a way to make this fair.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- gruez 7y ago
  >Require SMS or callback confirmation of the order slot using a non-Google/Twilio/SIP number (mobile phones or landlines both work here). How does this deal with bots that places orders on other people's behalf? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22715875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22715875
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    It does not provide for them.
somebodynew 7y ago
Bots are typically used to buy out a limited supply of something like concert tickets. Clicking quickly or responding immediately to availability changes wouldn't give bots any advantage when there's nothing but a FIFO queue. If I were setting this up for a grocery delivery platform, I would require the delivery address be provided upfront to enter the queue. Validate and standardize the address using the official Postal Service API (in the US). Prohibit changing the delivery address once in the queue, and prohibit the same address from appearing in the queue multiple times. Those requirements eliminate the mechanical possibility and incentive to partake in any sort of hoarding or profiteering using bots.
- xzel 7y ago
  But unfortunately there are a limited number of per day delivery slots, so bots will own anything FIFO. They will monitor the page and be the first ones in. There also aren’t really fully standardized addresses per se, it’s actually kinda weird, but what’s stopping anyone using the apartment number next to them and receiving the delivery when notified?
  - gruez 7y ago
    >But unfortunately there are a limited number of per day delivery slots I guess the idea is to put everyone in one queue, rather than having separate queues per day/slot. Presumably this isn't an issue since everyone's on lockdown anyways, so they're always available to accept a delivery.
    - squeaky-clean 7y ago
      But there are only so many delivery people. 1,000 delivery people simply cannot give 2,000 people their groceries within a 1 hour window. The timeslots manage when the deliveries occur. People also sleep at different times, and some essential employees are still working, so you can't simply deliver the groceries to everyone without a known time.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      I guess the idea is to put everyone in one queue, rather than having separate queues per day/slot. And now you've just excluded all the doctors, nurses, police officers, firefighters, and their families from using the service.
Nextgrid 7y ago
Sneaker stores rely on exclusivity so the bots used by resellers are considered a problem. Of course, the real problem is the idea of exclusivity in the first place but that’s besides the point. Supermarkets don’t have that problem - their goods are not that exclusive and not sought after at scale (anyone wanting to resell the products at scale can get them cheaper from the manufacturer directly).
- meritt 7y ago
  If it wasn't for the reselling market, there wouldn't be the same level of demand for sneakers. They're just shoes.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >If it wasn't for the reselling market, there wouldn't be the same level of demand for sneakers You can say that about literally anything. The value of anything goes up if it's liquid.
    - koolba 7y ago
      Not quite. The spread narrows if it’s liquid. All else being equal, a liquid asset is preferred over an illiquid one, but liquidity does not mean something is more valuable. It just means the price paid or received is closer to the consensus valuation.
  - xzel 7y ago
    I think its primarily the "limited" number produced, which created the market and brought resellers. There wasn't a huge secondary market when Jordan came out, they had to build a brand etc. Eventually there was more demand than the number of products and reselling became a bigger thing. Also I put limited in quotes because a lot of the bigger runs are huge world wide. The main profit that is left is extremely small runs or the smaller sizes (which themselves have smaller runs). But just like a Black Lotus MTG card is just a piece of paper with some ink on it, they aren't necessarily just shoes, they're "limited" shoes.
gruez 7y ago
>Web queues are ineffective as shown by sneaker bots. You’d need actual ID style authentication of accounts. ...and that's rendered ineffective by SaaS bot companies that take your account logins and payment details and places the orders on your behalf, for a fee of course[1]. The economically efficient solution would be to auction off the slots, so at least the grocer is reaping the profit rather than some third party. It also has the benefit of capitalizing the grocer so they can hire more people and/or buy more equipment so there are more slots in total. Also, if it bothers you that some FAANG programmer can afford deliveries than some old granny, this can be alleviated by reserving a certain % of the slots to "needy" people (eg. old, disabled, sick, immunocompromised) subject to validation. [1] kinda like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_drop_catching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_drop_catching
- chris_va 7y ago
  This assumes it's easy to resell a slot, which may not be correct (eg if you have to put in your delivery address when entering the queue). Tickets are a very different commodity.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >This assumes it's easy to resell a slot That's not what I'm saying. Rather than buying a slot (or an account) from the bot operator, you'd give the bot operator your order and address/account/payment info, so when the slots become available, the bot operator can place an order on your behalf.
    - admax88q 7y ago
      Isn't that just what amazon should already be doing? They need an option for people who are flexible with their delivery times, put in your order and they assign you a delivery slot when one opens up. If a bot can do that, then amazon can just do it themselves and actually improve the user's experience. How many people are working from home right now that don't can _when_ groceries get delivered other than "the next available slot"
- 7y ago
toast0 7y ago
Grocery delivery needs an address. You could pretty easily limit to one queued order per address, and limit order changes.
- anbop 7y ago
  One hack around address limits is to put in a unit number. 1 Park Avenue or whatever in Manhattan will have multiple units in it. And if you live in one of these units you can add a letter, like "Unit 522B" which will just get delivered to your unit 522. Some companies have databases that know the layouts in each address but many do not.
  - toast0 7y ago
    And when the grocery delivery person comes and sees the addresses don't match, your address gets blacklisted.
    - anbop 7y ago
      Never happened to me. If there are no letters after unit numbers, and the delivery person sees a delivery for unit 522B, they'll leave it at 522.
anbop 7y ago
I mean for Amazon Prime you have to have a Prime susbcription to even play, so the $129/year fee is a good barrier to bots.

by xzel 7y ago

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Require SMS or callback confirmation of the order slot using a non-Google/Twilio/SIP number (mobile phones or landlines both work here). Provide for one time order cancellation at no cost, cancellations after that incur a $10 cancellation fee. This should negate any technical advantage from a sophisticated entity. Queues still work, if managed properly.

amelius 7y ago
Cancellation costs may be against local consumer laws. But I think you wouldn't need it with upfront payment and some simple anti-hoarding rules. Also the delivery address or payment id could be used in a way to make this fair.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
gruez 7y ago
>Require SMS or callback confirmation of the order slot using a non-Google/Twilio/SIP number (mobile phones or landlines both work here). How does this deal with bots that places orders on other people's behalf? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22715875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22715875
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  It does not provide for them.

somebodynew 7y ago

Bots are typically used to buy out a limited supply of something like concert tickets. Clicking quickly or responding immediately to availability changes wouldn't give bots any advantage when there's nothing but a FIFO queue. If I were setting this up for a grocery delivery platform, I would require the delivery address be provided upfront to enter the queue. Validate and standardize the address using the official Postal Service API (in the US). Prohibit changing the delivery address once in the queue, and prohibit the same address from appearing in the queue multiple times. Those requirements eliminate the mechanical possibility and incentive to partake in any sort of hoarding or profiteering using bots.

xzel 7y ago
But unfortunately there are a limited number of per day delivery slots, so bots will own anything FIFO. They will monitor the page and be the first ones in. There also aren’t really fully standardized addresses per se, it’s actually kinda weird, but what’s stopping anyone using the apartment number next to them and receiving the delivery when notified?
- gruez 7y ago
  >But unfortunately there are a limited number of per day delivery slots I guess the idea is to put everyone in one queue, rather than having separate queues per day/slot. Presumably this isn't an issue since everyone's on lockdown anyways, so they're always available to accept a delivery.
  - squeaky-clean 7y ago
    But there are only so many delivery people. 1,000 delivery people simply cannot give 2,000 people their groceries within a 1 hour window. The timeslots manage when the deliveries occur. People also sleep at different times, and some essential employees are still working, so you can't simply deliver the groceries to everyone without a known time.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    I guess the idea is to put everyone in one queue, rather than having separate queues per day/slot. And now you've just excluded all the doctors, nurses, police officers, firefighters, and their families from using the service.

Nextgrid 7y ago

Sneaker stores rely on exclusivity so the bots used by resellers are considered a problem. Of course, the real problem is the idea of exclusivity in the first place but that’s besides the point. Supermarkets don’t have that problem - their goods are not that exclusive and not sought after at scale (anyone wanting to resell the products at scale can get them cheaper from the manufacturer directly).

meritt 7y ago
If it wasn't for the reselling market, there wouldn't be the same level of demand for sneakers. They're just shoes.
- gruez 7y ago
  >If it wasn't for the reselling market, there wouldn't be the same level of demand for sneakers You can say that about literally anything. The value of anything goes up if it's liquid.
  - koolba 7y ago
    Not quite. The spread narrows if it’s liquid. All else being equal, a liquid asset is preferred over an illiquid one, but liquidity does not mean something is more valuable. It just means the price paid or received is closer to the consensus valuation.
- xzel 7y ago
  I think its primarily the "limited" number produced, which created the market and brought resellers. There wasn't a huge secondary market when Jordan came out, they had to build a brand etc. Eventually there was more demand than the number of products and reselling became a bigger thing. Also I put limited in quotes because a lot of the bigger runs are huge world wide. The main profit that is left is extremely small runs or the smaller sizes (which themselves have smaller runs). But just like a Black Lotus MTG card is just a piece of paper with some ink on it, they aren't necessarily just shoes, they're "limited" shoes.

gruez 7y ago

>Web queues are ineffective as shown by sneaker bots. You’d need actual ID style authentication of accounts. ...and that's rendered ineffective by SaaS bot companies that take your account logins and payment details and places the orders on your behalf, for a fee of course[1]. The economically efficient solution would be to auction off the slots, so at least the grocer is reaping the profit rather than some third party. It also has the benefit of capitalizing the grocer so they can hire more people and/or buy more equipment so there are more slots in total. Also, if it bothers you that some FAANG programmer can afford deliveries than some old granny, this can be alleviated by reserving a certain % of the slots to "needy" people (eg. old, disabled, sick, immunocompromised) subject to validation. [1] kinda like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_drop_catching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_drop_catching

chris_va 7y ago
This assumes it's easy to resell a slot, which may not be correct (eg if you have to put in your delivery address when entering the queue). Tickets are a very different commodity.
- gruez 7y ago
  >This assumes it's easy to resell a slot That's not what I'm saying. Rather than buying a slot (or an account) from the bot operator, you'd give the bot operator your order and address/account/payment info, so when the slots become available, the bot operator can place an order on your behalf.
  - admax88q 7y ago
    Isn't that just what amazon should already be doing? They need an option for people who are flexible with their delivery times, put in your order and they assign you a delivery slot when one opens up. If a bot can do that, then amazon can just do it themselves and actually improve the user's experience. How many people are working from home right now that don't can _when_ groceries get delivered other than "the next available slot"
7y ago

toast0 7y ago

Grocery delivery needs an address. You could pretty easily limit to one queued order per address, and limit order changes.

anbop 7y ago
One hack around address limits is to put in a unit number. 1 Park Avenue or whatever in Manhattan will have multiple units in it. And if you live in one of these units you can add a letter, like "Unit 522B" which will just get delivered to your unit 522. Some companies have databases that know the layouts in each address but many do not.
- toast0 7y ago
  And when the grocery delivery person comes and sees the addresses don't match, your address gets blacklisted.
  - anbop 7y ago
    Never happened to me. If there are no letters after unit numbers, and the delivery person sees a delivery for unit 522B, they'll leave it at 522.

anbop 7y ago

I mean for Amazon Prime you have to have a Prime susbcription to even play, so the $129/year fee is a good barrier to bots.