5 ms·

As an eastern European I think the British should pick their own fruit and pay the appropriate price if they like it so much, otherwise the market is artificial

by Tade0 7y ago

As an eastern European I think the British should pick their own fruit and pay the appropriate price if they like it so much, otherwise the market is artificially inflated. Germany has the exact same problem with asparagus. We can't be everywhere with our low wage expectations.

jholman 7y ago
I think that probably that would make you and your countryfolk worse off. To try to illustrate, I'll switch the analogy to my own country, which is Canada, where we fly in Mexican labour to pick crops. If we didn't fly in migrant labour, we'd have to pay Canadians, who are generally a spoiled, lazy, picky bunch (at least compared to the sort of Mexicans who fly here to work, who obviously are not lazy nor excessively picky). This would drive up the cost of fruit, which is perhaps fine. It would also drive up the cost of unskilled labour in other areas, perhaps construction or retail, because there would be less competition for those jobs. That's good news for the unskilled workforce in the rich country. Great. Of course, not only do prices go up, but actually just less food will get produced. You could argue that that's good, or bad. Fine. However, now all those Mexican labourers don't have foreign work, so they compete for work at home. That drives down the price of unskilled labour in Mexico, and if there's a minimum wage then it drives up unemployment. The industrious folks who were savvy enough to get the Canadian jobs will take the next-best jobs, displacing slightly-less-hard-working Mexicans from their jobs, and so on. Of course, this is also foreign cash that is no longer coming into the country, so it has effects on the balance of trade, i.e. on the ability of Mexico collectively to import nice things that they aren't making internally. That's probably bad news on a decade-long timescale, but it might eventually lead to a more robust manufacturing economy, I don't know. So, in summary, suppose Canada stops using Mexican farm labour (or Britain stops using eastern European farm labour). What are the consequences: All Canadians get more expensive food. Unskilled Canadians get more pay, probably offsetting the more expensive food for those people. Less food gets grown in Canada overall, probably, or at least less luxury food. Unskilled Mexicans are fucked over hard, especially those who are most vulnerable. Rich Mexicans can hire poor mexicans at even more exploitative rates. In the medium to long term, Mexico might have a worse balance of trade, but then again maybe that results in positive industrialization in the long term.
- Tade0 7y ago
  I think there's one thing missing in your picture: Those workers aren't necessarily unskilled. Those who come from my country(Poland) at least are often college graduates. How do they end up there? Well, the pay is obviously better - especially for a seasonal worker. After all, the GDP per capita difference between the UK and Poland is close to 3x. The unemployment rate here is(or was before the virus) considerably lower than the EU average, so had they not gone there those people would've found jobs and contributed to the local economy. Instead we have this weird brain-drain in which the brains aren't utilized to their full potential. Ironically I'm currently a "seasonal worker" myself, only I work as a software engineer, not fruit picker, or any low-skilled labourer. Aside from that the coronavirus showed that this approach you present is unsustainable. Like I said before, currently there is so much demand for workers from eastern Europe (Poland, Ukraine, Belarus) that there's simply not enough people to fill all the positions. Also we have our own fields with fruit to pick - all that is going to go to waste. That's definitely "less food produced" - just somewhere you don't see it.
  - touristtam 7y ago
    > After all, the GDP per capita difference between the UK and Poland is close to 3x. That's a shame it is still the case, as the promise of entering the EU was for wages to normalise across the Union. I guess it will take further integration for that to happen.
    - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
      Even if that approach was to work, it takes a long time. Ireland joined in 1973, but didn't really become "rich" like the rest of Western Europe till the turn of the millenium.
    - Tade0 7y ago
      It was 6x back when Poland joined the EU in 2004, so a lot of progress has been made already. It's a lengthy process, but it's happening.
- DFHippie 7y ago

by Tade0 7y ago

jholman 7y ago

I think that probably that would make you and your countryfolk worse off. To try to illustrate, I'll switch the analogy to my own country, which is Canada, where we fly in Mexican labour to pick crops. If we didn't fly in migrant labour, we'd have to pay Canadians, who are generally a spoiled, lazy, picky bunch (at least compared to the sort of Mexicans who fly here to work, who obviously are not lazy nor excessively picky). This would drive up the cost of fruit, which is perhaps fine. It would also drive up the cost of unskilled labour in other areas, perhaps construction or retail, because there would be less competition for those jobs. That's good news for the unskilled workforce in the rich country. Great. Of course, not only do prices go up, but actually just less food will get produced. You could argue that that's good, or bad. Fine. However, now all those Mexican labourers don't have foreign work, so they compete for work at home. That drives down the price of unskilled labour in Mexico, and if there's a minimum wage then it drives up unemployment. The industrious folks who were savvy enough to get the Canadian jobs will take the next-best jobs, displacing slightly-less-hard-working Mexicans from their jobs, and so on. Of course, this is also foreign cash that is no longer coming into the country, so it has effects on the balance of trade, i.e. on the ability of Mexico collectively to import nice things that they aren't making internally. That's probably bad news on a decade-long timescale, but it might eventually lead to a more robust manufacturing economy, I don't know. So, in summary, suppose Canada stops using Mexican farm labour (or Britain stops using eastern European farm labour). What are the consequences: All Canadians get more expensive food. Unskilled Canadians get more pay, probably offsetting the more expensive food for those people. Less food gets grown in Canada overall, probably, or at least less luxury food. Unskilled Mexicans are fucked over hard, especially those who are most vulnerable. Rich Mexicans can hire poor mexicans at even more exploitative rates. In the medium to long term, Mexico might have a worse balance of trade, but then again maybe that results in positive industrialization in the long term.

Tade0 7y ago
I think there's one thing missing in your picture: Those workers aren't necessarily unskilled. Those who come from my country(Poland) at least are often college graduates. How do they end up there? Well, the pay is obviously better - especially for a seasonal worker. After all, the GDP per capita difference between the UK and Poland is close to 3x. The unemployment rate here is(or was before the virus) considerably lower than the EU average, so had they not gone there those people would've found jobs and contributed to the local economy. Instead we have this weird brain-drain in which the brains aren't utilized to their full potential. Ironically I'm currently a "seasonal worker" myself, only I work as a software engineer, not fruit picker, or any low-skilled labourer. Aside from that the coronavirus showed that this approach you present is unsustainable. Like I said before, currently there is so much demand for workers from eastern Europe (Poland, Ukraine, Belarus) that there's simply not enough people to fill all the positions. Also we have our own fields with fruit to pick - all that is going to go to waste. That's definitely "less food produced" - just somewhere you don't see it.
- touristtam 7y ago
  > After all, the GDP per capita difference between the UK and Poland is close to 3x. That's a shame it is still the case, as the promise of entering the EU was for wages to normalise across the Union. I guess it will take further integration for that to happen.
  - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
    Even if that approach was to work, it takes a long time. Ireland joined in 1973, but didn't really become "rich" like the rest of Western Europe till the turn of the millenium.
  - Tade0 7y ago
    It was 6x back when Poland joined the EU in 2004, so a lot of progress has been made already. It's a lengthy process, but it's happening.
DFHippie 7y ago