7 ms·

When you want to quit because it's just not worth it

262 points by AliCollins 16y ago

AliCollins 16y ago
Has anyone reading this quit a startup because of a similar experience? Or do you want to quit your current startup??!
- wazoox 16y ago
  One of my co-founders quit during the past recession, when our sales dipped to zero in no time -- we actually had zero sales for 9 months straight. I think he simply couldn't accept the failure, even while it obviously wasn't anything wrong from ourselves. He started resenting any minor annoyance as an act of sabotage. If I came late to the office (I've always, always came late for the past 20 years; I hardly pass the door before 11AM if not for a serious reason), if the sales guy failed to close a sale (well, good luck with that...), he lived that as a personal offence and a deliberate attempt to annihilate his own efforts. What the article didn't mention is that this emotional burden can alter relationships and literally make the atmosphere poisonous. It's quite incredible, but an 8 persons group can be filled with petty politics, resent and conspirational talks. As a result we had a near complete reset (the team went from 8 to 2, then back to 8 in 6 to 9 months).
  - PakG1 16y ago
    >> even while it obviously wasn't anything wrong from ourselves Don't take this as belittling your efforts or your results, because I'm not trying to, I'm simply stating what is probably a fact of life. When you have 0 sales for 9 months straight, eventually somebody has to take responsibility. Preferably, that should be everyone pitching in to make one last charge up the hill, but it doesn't change the fact that someone needs to and eventually will take responsibility and blame for what happened (or did not happen, rather). This is the founder's blessing and curse, huh?
    - SkyMarshal 16y ago
      Under normal circumstances that's probably true, but in the middle of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, where uncertainty rules and everyone is cutting back purchases of everything until they see whether the govt will bail out the economy and how effective it will be, you can probably cut yourself some slack if your erstwhile customers are hesitant to buy from a new startup.
- rudasn 16y ago
  Despite having thoughts about quiting due to the reasons discussed in the article I actually quit due to a lack of communication, or to put it better, due to a large amount of miscommunication. I believe good communication is the key to any relationship. Where there is no communication or a lot of miscommunication (where the parties involved do not really understanding what it is being said) problems will arise. What I learned is from now on to talk through everything and never let things pass by. Is there something that bothers you? Talk. Is there something that seems a bit odd? Talk. Do you think your partner is bothered by something? Talk.
TheSOB88 16y ago
I'd like to imagine that if faced with such a situation, I'd pride myself with being a good person who actually creates something of value in the world, he's just some jerk peon who's doomed to live the rest of his life treating people like shit, yada yada. But I've never had to go through anything like that. After putting your heart into something and some guy whose job is to make you feel worthless makes you feel worthless, I don't know if I could. That kind of thing can break a man.
edw519 16y ago
"It is never as bad as it appears and it is never as good as it seems, and I truly believe that." - Bill Cowher (former Pittsburgh Steelers football coach)
- billswift 16y ago
  A similar quote I remember: "Nothing is ever as good, or as bad, as it first appears." I don't have a source for it; it may even be a misremembered version of a misquoted version of that quote.
  - MediaBehavior 16y ago
    Maybe you're thinking of Hamlet's "There's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." ?
- aheilbut 16y ago
  "It's even worse than it appears / but it's alright" - Garcia / Hunter
- dspillett 16y ago
  It always seems darkest, just before it goes pitch black.
ajhit406 16y ago
Wouldn't the logical entrepreneur maybe take a moment and say: * This is a $200,000 contract. * I can pay my own d-bag $35k / year to just yell "Smokey, This is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules." Then, if he doesn't oblige, read from this script: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/quotes?qt0464765 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/quotes?qt0464765 Seems like the finances still would work out, and you can sip a pina colada on the beach somewhere instead of crying about it.
- TheSOB88 16y ago
  Who the hell would want a person like that in their company?
  - ajhit406 16y ago
    I agree, I'm just saying it's better than giving up. Sometimes founders think they have to (and can) do everything that's all. In this particular case, a $200k contract might warrant hiring new people instead of failing... But i'm all for the do-it-all CEO...
- wanderful 16y ago
  True, although he may still feel like giving up in that moment, which is what I think the post was about. There will always be moments as an entrepeneur where one feels like giving up, but the wind of desire and ambition returns to fill the sails.
jdp23 16y ago
Great article -- both in terms of the general message and the specific story about the bully. One thing that helps a lot in a situation like that is having advisors (or board members) you can trust to talk with in situations like this. If they all also say "you don't know the Way It Works", then it's worth listening. More likely, though, they'll say something more along the lines of "Wow, that guy's an asshole. Look, you're confident about your business model, and here are some other examples of companies who don't offer bulk discounts. He's just being a roadblock. Here are some sales techniques that might help in a situation like this." At my startup back in the 1990s, we had gotten to verbal agreement on a $200K deal. The paperwork hit a snag and our CEO headed off on vacation to a place with no FAXes or FedEx, but no problem: I was a naiveish techie, but I wa also founder/CTO and had signing authority. So we agreed that I'd fly to their location onsite, sign the contract, and get going. Once I got there, surprise: a couple of new terms! And no, we couldn't get started without a contract. I said, y'know, I'm not comfortable with this. They said "but that means you'll just have to turn around and fly home." The deal was pretty key to our success and I didn't want to let it go but you have to draw lines. So I called up one of my board members, who agreed. They said "stick around for lunch, let's talk this through." After lunch they decided that the new terms didn't have to be there after all. Funny how that worked.
simonsquiff 16y ago
It seems like part of the problem with procurement was not clearly illustrating that a discount had been applied after all. PM: Well I’m going to need some kind of discount. How about 30%? Me: As it says on our website, we don’t discount. PM: But I’m buying 400 seats! Me: Yes, and we already provide a nice discount for bulk orders, which is already included on the invoice and documented on the website. I.e. he was wrong to say 'we don't discount'. The answer is actually - 'yes, I've already applied your discount. Because you are buying so many seats, you get our discount of x%. If you bought another y, you'd get z%'. Sounds like it could have been communicated better.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >Me: As it says on our website, we don’t discount. Should, like you say, have been "we've given you an X% discount to reflect the size of your order, if you buy Y more then that will increase to Z%; how do you want to pay" ... or something like that, no?
- tallanvor 16y ago
  Most likely the PM feels the need to get discounts above and beyond the standard rates - he always wants to feel that he was able to get a better deal than anyone else. You'll find people like this everywhere.
  - patio11 16y ago
    It isn't necessarily a matter of personal entitlement issues. Asking for discounts is Standard Operating Procedure. Literally. It is his job to ask for discounts. That's all the procurement department is there for: achieving a pile of requests for internal customers at the lowest possible total price. Asking for a discount never causes the price to go up. It is a totally defensible business decision to always ask.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      Studious readers may note that what's good for the giant meganational corporation is also good for the individual: you don't get something if you don't ask for it. This is the root of that whole 'rejection therapy' business that was so cool a few weeks ago.
ctdonath 16y ago
After starting a family and enduring heart surgery, one learns there is no "quit".
- arkitaip 16y ago
  Ugh, another frivolous down vote. Why do people do this? Anyways, experience certainly can strengthen us and give a soothing perspective to the hardships we are enduring. IMHO this makes it all the more important that you're really into a startup because you are passionate about it and have a more solid motivation factor than just money or, even worse, desperation.
  - T-hawk 16y ago
    > Ugh, another frivolous down vote. Why do people do this? Fat fingering the downvote button? Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence...
    - nkurz 16y ago
      Malice and incompetence seem like too narrow of a spectrum. I voted it down because I found it unhelpful for the purpose of further discussion. Saying "there is no quit" strikes me as pap, and merely a meme friendly way of saying that self-doubt is never productive. As someone feeling trapped in a business and searching for meaning and purpose, I preferred that top billing on the page be elsewhere. What do you particularly like about this response that makes you think that no one would intentionally vote it down?
      - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
        Some of us try to concisely communicate. It can look like a meme or whatever. Its helpful when it provides context or perspective. Its useless when it repeats cliches. That post inparticular passes the test - its from their own experience and surely puts business and life in drastic perspective. Objecting to top billing on the page, I find it more useful to post a cogent response of my own. I understand that feeling trapped can make anyone behave oddly. I'm glad that here, folks can then work it out rationally. It was brave to step up and admit the act amid criticism.
dabent 16y ago
Did Jason Baptiste draw that graph? I thought Paul Graham did at the YC offices. (The one with the Tech Crunch of initiation)
- damoncali 16y ago
  I dont' know who drew it, but I saw it on the wall at YC during the first AngelConf.
- vegashacker 16y ago
  Yeah, I think I remember seeing it at their HQ when I interviewed. I vaguely remember Paul saying that Trevor had drawn it, but I could be wrong.
- gruseom 16y ago
  It's well known to be on the wall at YC. The OP should update his attribution.
  - savrajsingh 16y ago
    I think it was originally drawn during the Summer '08 batch, as it was already there for Winter '09.
arkitaip 16y ago
Running a startup rarely makes sense. You are pushing on and on despite all warning signals telling you not to. You barely have money left. Most of your friends have been reduced to ghosts and memories, You can't recall the last time you saw some of your family and you are constantly working. Working instead of eating, working late into the nights and beyond, working when you're supposed to be taking time of and resting. It's so easy to get tunnel vision and descending down the rabbit hole if you are not careful. Easy to forget to check if you're doing the right things properly. Easy to ignore or rationalize having blown every single deadline and budget you made. When you compare startups with usual 9-5 salary work, it's actually amazing how much risk founders take and how incredibly hard they work. And people wonder why startup founders - the very few that actually make it - get so much more money than the employees.
- chadgeidel 16y ago
  I don't know if people wonder why startup founders get more money than employees. I think they wonder why the current CEO does. Maybe it's just me, but if you have started and are running a successful company you "deserve" every cent you can keep.
Maro 16y ago
In the context of enterprise sales/consulting, this is all pretty standard stuff. One helpful investor told us early on that everybody always wants a discount, and you have to give out discounts, so you just bake that into your price. Anything else is wishful thinking and will harm your startup.
dtran 16y ago
Startups are definitely emotionally draining, and while I would like to believe in my resiliency, if I didn't have two awesome co-founders there in the trenches with me, I'm not sure I'd still be fighting the good fight (Thanks Ricky and Mark!). I can't seem to find all of the details about Smart Bear, but it sounds like it was a bootstrapped, solo founder operation (not sure how quickly he hired those 4 people). That amazes the hell out of me. Solo founders in general seem like magical Django ponies with how they're able to juggle and prioritize product, customers, etc. But the hardest part of being a solo founder must be not having the emotional support of a team working till all hours of the morning with you. I know Ray of Ginzametrics has said that his family is a huge help almost to the point where his wife is almost like a cofounder. Any solo founders out there, I'm interested to hear how you recharge/support yourself emotinally.
worldtize 16y ago
Just remember the facts when wanting to give up.....regardless of each individual, life gives us all up and to where we go is uncertain, if anywhere. So, why give up? Its pointless, the thought of stopping what you pursue is an emotional complication with the mind. You look up at the sky and realize you ain't shit! So, just keeping trying to be the shit down here. Practice meditation and thinking positive. People are starving and homeless, never the less upset about a million dollar project moving to slow. Eliminate as much emotion as possible and filter out pure positive energy and your wildest dreams will come true. I wrote a business plan 4 years ago with intentions of getting funded by Michael Dell. My biggest fear was getting that book in his hand. Well, I had 2 hours with him in Round Rock Texas and I personally know why apple and hp have diluted his market. I didn't get funding that day, but I realized when I do get funding how far I will advance beyond anyone's projection. Persistence is key to success, even selling shit to an asshole, keep at it and you'll be fine. Always advance your thoughts beyond and then find a way to make them happen. First comes the idea, then comes the passion, then comes a road that will change many times until it leads to your destination. I'm not technical and I battle everyday trying to find a co-founder to even listen about my visions and my outlook to all that dismiss my approach....fuck um, they'll be throwing up when they tell there children that I approached them before GTV and WORLDTIZE was a reality for the World. Good luck to all and best wishes for success, and please remember, when you advance into a financial position above many, help the World, money in the bank is money in the bank, its does nothing for anyone! - GTV...WORLDTIZE.COM....if your technical and looking for a fresh vision....email me anytime...preferable within a couple days so we can enter the summer funding round with Y. We have a short time to fall in love with each-others thoughts! gstacks00@aol.com (zero zero)
Loic 16y ago
Thank you, no, really really thank you. Just got a call this morning for a negotiation round with a big pharma corporation. I would have not read this article yesterday, I would have been falling flat. So, I gave a bit, but definitely not as much as I would have if I had not read this article. Again, thank you!

262 points by AliCollins 16y ago

AliCollins 16y ago

Has anyone reading this quit a startup because of a similar experience? Or do you want to quit your current startup??!

wazoox 16y ago
One of my co-founders quit during the past recession, when our sales dipped to zero in no time -- we actually had zero sales for 9 months straight. I think he simply couldn't accept the failure, even while it obviously wasn't anything wrong from ourselves. He started resenting any minor annoyance as an act of sabotage. If I came late to the office (I've always, always came late for the past 20 years; I hardly pass the door before 11AM if not for a serious reason), if the sales guy failed to close a sale (well, good luck with that...), he lived that as a personal offence and a deliberate attempt to annihilate his own efforts. What the article didn't mention is that this emotional burden can alter relationships and literally make the atmosphere poisonous. It's quite incredible, but an 8 persons group can be filled with petty politics, resent and conspirational talks. As a result we had a near complete reset (the team went from 8 to 2, then back to 8 in 6 to 9 months).
- PakG1 16y ago
  >> even while it obviously wasn't anything wrong from ourselves Don't take this as belittling your efforts or your results, because I'm not trying to, I'm simply stating what is probably a fact of life. When you have 0 sales for 9 months straight, eventually somebody has to take responsibility. Preferably, that should be everyone pitching in to make one last charge up the hill, but it doesn't change the fact that someone needs to and eventually will take responsibility and blame for what happened (or did not happen, rather). This is the founder's blessing and curse, huh?
  - SkyMarshal 16y ago
    Under normal circumstances that's probably true, but in the middle of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, where uncertainty rules and everyone is cutting back purchases of everything until they see whether the govt will bail out the economy and how effective it will be, you can probably cut yourself some slack if your erstwhile customers are hesitant to buy from a new startup.
rudasn 16y ago
Despite having thoughts about quiting due to the reasons discussed in the article I actually quit due to a lack of communication, or to put it better, due to a large amount of miscommunication. I believe good communication is the key to any relationship. Where there is no communication or a lot of miscommunication (where the parties involved do not really understanding what it is being said) problems will arise. What I learned is from now on to talk through everything and never let things pass by. Is there something that bothers you? Talk. Is there something that seems a bit odd? Talk. Do you think your partner is bothered by something? Talk.

TheSOB88 16y ago

I'd like to imagine that if faced with such a situation, I'd pride myself with being a good person who actually creates something of value in the world, he's just some jerk peon who's doomed to live the rest of his life treating people like shit, yada yada. But I've never had to go through anything like that. After putting your heart into something and some guy whose job is to make you feel worthless makes you feel worthless, I don't know if I could. That kind of thing can break a man.

edw519 16y ago

"It is never as bad as it appears and it is never as good as it seems, and I truly believe that." - Bill Cowher (former Pittsburgh Steelers football coach)

billswift 16y ago
A similar quote I remember: "Nothing is ever as good, or as bad, as it first appears." I don't have a source for it; it may even be a misremembered version of a misquoted version of that quote.
- MediaBehavior 16y ago
  Maybe you're thinking of Hamlet's "There's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." ?
aheilbut 16y ago
"It's even worse than it appears / but it's alright" - Garcia / Hunter
dspillett 16y ago
It always seems darkest, just before it goes pitch black.

ajhit406 16y ago

Wouldn't the logical entrepreneur maybe take a moment and say: * This is a $200,000 contract. * I can pay my own d-bag $35k / year to just yell "Smokey, This is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules." Then, if he doesn't oblige, read from this script: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/quotes?qt0464765 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/quotes?qt0464765 Seems like the finances still would work out, and you can sip a pina colada on the beach somewhere instead of crying about it.

TheSOB88 16y ago
Who the hell would want a person like that in their company?
- ajhit406 16y ago
  I agree, I'm just saying it's better than giving up. Sometimes founders think they have to (and can) do everything that's all. In this particular case, a $200k contract might warrant hiring new people instead of failing... But i'm all for the do-it-all CEO...
wanderful 16y ago
True, although he may still feel like giving up in that moment, which is what I think the post was about. There will always be moments as an entrepeneur where one feels like giving up, but the wind of desire and ambition returns to fill the sails.

jdp23 16y ago

Great article -- both in terms of the general message and the specific story about the bully. One thing that helps a lot in a situation like that is having advisors (or board members) you can trust to talk with in situations like this. If they all also say "you don't know the Way It Works", then it's worth listening. More likely, though, they'll say something more along the lines of "Wow, that guy's an asshole. Look, you're confident about your business model, and here are some other examples of companies who don't offer bulk discounts. He's just being a roadblock. Here are some sales techniques that might help in a situation like this." At my startup back in the 1990s, we had gotten to verbal agreement on a $200K deal. The paperwork hit a snag and our CEO headed off on vacation to a place with no FAXes or FedEx, but no problem: I was a naiveish techie, but I wa also founder/CTO and had signing authority. So we agreed that I'd fly to their location onsite, sign the contract, and get going. Once I got there, surprise: a couple of new terms! And no, we couldn't get started without a contract. I said, y'know, I'm not comfortable with this. They said "but that means you'll just have to turn around and fly home." The deal was pretty key to our success and I didn't want to let it go but you have to draw lines. So I called up one of my board members, who agreed. They said "stick around for lunch, let's talk this through." After lunch they decided that the new terms didn't have to be there after all. Funny how that worked.

simonsquiff 16y ago

It seems like part of the problem with procurement was not clearly illustrating that a discount had been applied after all. PM: Well I’m going to need some kind of discount. How about 30%? Me: As it says on our website, we don’t discount. PM: But I’m buying 400 seats! Me: Yes, and we already provide a nice discount for bulk orders, which is already included on the invoice and documented on the website. I.e. he was wrong to say 'we don't discount'. The answer is actually - 'yes, I've already applied your discount. Because you are buying so many seats, you get our discount of x%. If you bought another y, you'd get z%'. Sounds like it could have been communicated better.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>Me: As it says on our website, we don’t discount. Should, like you say, have been "we've given you an X% discount to reflect the size of your order, if you buy Y more then that will increase to Z%; how do you want to pay" ... or something like that, no?
tallanvor 16y ago
Most likely the PM feels the need to get discounts above and beyond the standard rates - he always wants to feel that he was able to get a better deal than anyone else. You'll find people like this everywhere.
- patio11 16y ago
  It isn't necessarily a matter of personal entitlement issues. Asking for discounts is Standard Operating Procedure. Literally. It is his job to ask for discounts. That's all the procurement department is there for: achieving a pile of requests for internal customers at the lowest possible total price. Asking for a discount never causes the price to go up. It is a totally defensible business decision to always ask.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Studious readers may note that what's good for the giant meganational corporation is also good for the individual: you don't get something if you don't ask for it. This is the root of that whole 'rejection therapy' business that was so cool a few weeks ago.

ctdonath 16y ago

After starting a family and enduring heart surgery, one learns there is no "quit".

arkitaip 16y ago
Ugh, another frivolous down vote. Why do people do this? Anyways, experience certainly can strengthen us and give a soothing perspective to the hardships we are enduring. IMHO this makes it all the more important that you're really into a startup because you are passionate about it and have a more solid motivation factor than just money or, even worse, desperation.
- T-hawk 16y ago
  > Ugh, another frivolous down vote. Why do people do this? Fat fingering the downvote button? Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence...
  - nkurz 16y ago
    Malice and incompetence seem like too narrow of a spectrum. I voted it down because I found it unhelpful for the purpose of further discussion. Saying "there is no quit" strikes me as pap, and merely a meme friendly way of saying that self-doubt is never productive. As someone feeling trapped in a business and searching for meaning and purpose, I preferred that top billing on the page be elsewhere. What do you particularly like about this response that makes you think that no one would intentionally vote it down?
    - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
      Some of us try to concisely communicate. It can look like a meme or whatever. Its helpful when it provides context or perspective. Its useless when it repeats cliches. That post inparticular passes the test - its from their own experience and surely puts business and life in drastic perspective. Objecting to top billing on the page, I find it more useful to post a cogent response of my own. I understand that feeling trapped can make anyone behave oddly. I'm glad that here, folks can then work it out rationally. It was brave to step up and admit the act amid criticism.

dabent 16y ago

Did Jason Baptiste draw that graph? I thought Paul Graham did at the YC offices. (The one with the Tech Crunch of initiation)

damoncali 16y ago
I dont' know who drew it, but I saw it on the wall at YC during the first AngelConf.
vegashacker 16y ago
Yeah, I think I remember seeing it at their HQ when I interviewed. I vaguely remember Paul saying that Trevor had drawn it, but I could be wrong.
gruseom 16y ago
It's well known to be on the wall at YC. The OP should update his attribution.
- savrajsingh 16y ago
  I think it was originally drawn during the Summer '08 batch, as it was already there for Winter '09.

arkitaip 16y ago

Running a startup rarely makes sense. You are pushing on and on despite all warning signals telling you not to. You barely have money left. Most of your friends have been reduced to ghosts and memories, You can't recall the last time you saw some of your family and you are constantly working. Working instead of eating, working late into the nights and beyond, working when you're supposed to be taking time of and resting. It's so easy to get tunnel vision and descending down the rabbit hole if you are not careful. Easy to forget to check if you're doing the right things properly. Easy to ignore or rationalize having blown every single deadline and budget you made. When you compare startups with usual 9-5 salary work, it's actually amazing how much risk founders take and how incredibly hard they work. And people wonder why startup founders - the very few that actually make it - get so much more money than the employees.

chadgeidel 16y ago
I don't know if people wonder why startup founders get more money than employees. I think they wonder why the current CEO does. Maybe it's just me, but if you have started and are running a successful company you "deserve" every cent you can keep.

Maro 16y ago

In the context of enterprise sales/consulting, this is all pretty standard stuff. One helpful investor told us early on that everybody always wants a discount, and you have to give out discounts, so you just bake that into your price. Anything else is wishful thinking and will harm your startup.

dtran 16y ago

Startups are definitely emotionally draining, and while I would like to believe in my resiliency, if I didn't have two awesome co-founders there in the trenches with me, I'm not sure I'd still be fighting the good fight (Thanks Ricky and Mark!). I can't seem to find all of the details about Smart Bear, but it sounds like it was a bootstrapped, solo founder operation (not sure how quickly he hired those 4 people). That amazes the hell out of me. Solo founders in general seem like magical Django ponies with how they're able to juggle and prioritize product, customers, etc. But the hardest part of being a solo founder must be not having the emotional support of a team working till all hours of the morning with you. I know Ray of Ginzametrics has said that his family is a huge help almost to the point where his wife is almost like a cofounder. Any solo founders out there, I'm interested to hear how you recharge/support yourself emotinally.

worldtize 16y ago

Just remember the facts when wanting to give up.....regardless of each individual, life gives us all up and to where we go is uncertain, if anywhere. So, why give up? Its pointless, the thought of stopping what you pursue is an emotional complication with the mind. You look up at the sky and realize you ain't shit! So, just keeping trying to be the shit down here. Practice meditation and thinking positive. People are starving and homeless, never the less upset about a million dollar project moving to slow. Eliminate as much emotion as possible and filter out pure positive energy and your wildest dreams will come true. I wrote a business plan 4 years ago with intentions of getting funded by Michael Dell. My biggest fear was getting that book in his hand. Well, I had 2 hours with him in Round Rock Texas and I personally know why apple and hp have diluted his market. I didn't get funding that day, but I realized when I do get funding how far I will advance beyond anyone's projection. Persistence is key to success, even selling shit to an asshole, keep at it and you'll be fine. Always advance your thoughts beyond and then find a way to make them happen. First comes the idea, then comes the passion, then comes a road that will change many times until it leads to your destination. I'm not technical and I battle everyday trying to find a co-founder to even listen about my visions and my outlook to all that dismiss my approach....fuck um, they'll be throwing up when they tell there children that I approached them before GTV and WORLDTIZE was a reality for the World. Good luck to all and best wishes for success, and please remember, when you advance into a financial position above many, help the World, money in the bank is money in the bank, its does nothing for anyone! - GTV...WORLDTIZE.COM....if your technical and looking for a fresh vision....email me anytime...preferable within a couple days so we can enter the summer funding round with Y. We have a short time to fall in love with each-others thoughts! gstacks00@aol.com (zero zero)

Loic 16y ago

Thank you, no, really really thank you. Just got a call this morning for a negotiation round with a big pharma corporation. I would have not read this article yesterday, I would have been falling flat. So, I gave a bit, but definitely not as much as I would have if I had not read this article. Again, thank you!