4 ms·

At 20 USD/hour I think you would be able to fill these jobs. But if you want to make that salary picking fruit, then we'll have to pay more for it -- or you'll

by jopsen 7y ago

At 20 USD/hour I think you would be able to fill these jobs. But if you want to make that salary picking fruit, then we'll have to pay more for it -- or you'll need to have some automation to increase productivity. I doubt we'll want to pay more, consumers would rather buy imports instead.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
Everything I have ever read indicates that white Americans don't want farm labor jobs even if you pay $20/hour.
- jazzyk 7y ago
  That's because they would never be able to afford basic things like: - college education ($30K-$75K/year, preceded by purchasing a shack for $800K in a good-school town) - health care ($25K/year for a high-deductible family plan) What's the point? Or do we consider education or healthcare luxury now?
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    America has long treated both education and healthcare as luxury items that only the rich deserve. We need to fix those things. They are negatively impacting quite a lot of people. The lack of healthcare is hardly peculiar to farm labor jobs.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      In the US school is free for 13 years. After that there are scholarships for the poor. Healthcare is expensive, but there are programs for the poor. When you move out of poor things get hard quick though because you don't get the above and so you have to come up with the prices you quote.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  What people want to do work that damaged their body, is subject to short term changes in demand due to weather and has high income instability, and leads to no future growth? $20/hour for temporary backbreaking work in exchange for not being near friends or family, having to move constantly, having to live in a rural area (not what most people want), having no upward income mobility. The people that do it, do it because they have no better option. Not because they want to.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    > The people that do it, do it because they have no better option. Not because they want to. Isn't that most people in their current job?
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Yes, but I would say as you go down in income, there’s almost zero of “wanting” to do the job and mostly “needing” to do it. Whereas an engineer might answer that they like the work they do, I doubt someone bending over all day and picking strawberries would.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I've been dirt poor for years. I'm a freelance writer by trade. I like writing. I've always wanted to be a writer. I hate being poor, of course. I've been told for years to "go get a real job." I'm medically handicapped. For that and other reasons I can't readily "just go get a real job." The fact that you hate the working conditions and pay doesn't mean you inherently hate the work. There are people who garden as a relaxing and enjoyable hobby. The assumption that all poorly paid people hate their work and all well paid people enjoy their work sounds like classist prejudice to me. I knew someone (a programmer, in fact) who made good money, got fed up with the job and they we're told by someone close to them "You can't just up and quit. A job at Home Depot wouldn't even cover your car payment." I've also seen stuff on the internet from people who are miserable, desperately want to change jobs and feel stuck because they make good money and can't readily walk away from their good income. They have family to support or college loans to pay or whatever. What you find is that even people who are overall happy will bitch about their job or whatever, if only because it's a socially acceptable bonding ritual. Bragging to the miserable people around you about how everything in your life works wonderfully well all the time is a good way to get everyone to hate you. There are real quality of life issues for low paid work, farm labor work, etc. But there are farm laborers who live in Mexico and work the fields in the US because they like living in Mexico, they have no desire to move to America and it pays ten times better than jobs in their town. Not all of these people feel exploited or victimized. Exploitation isn't a good thing in any job, but it's not somehow the inherently part of doing physical labor and inherently not part of the picture for jobs with better public perception.
jandrewrogers 7y ago
Migrant labor was $20-25/hour over a decade ago in parts of the rural US where I knew the rough market rate. You are greatly underestimating what a market clearing wage that would entice people to live out there looks like. The $100+k oil companies are required to pay to entice Americans to work in their remote oil fields is much closer to the reality.
- jopsen 7y ago
  Aren't oil companies looking for skilled labor?
Scoundreller 7y ago
The reality is, the proportion of your fresh fruit cost that is migrant labour isn't very much. If that cost only were passed on, we wouldn't see much of a difference in price. Kinda how like Walmart could double the wage of its retail employees by increasing its prices by 6%.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  And then Walmart would fail because everyone would shop at target or Another store. In a low margin business, every percent counts.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    'cept Walmart has been raising its corporate minimum wage. Then there's Costco that has always paid a wage about the prevailing for retail. No shortage of price-conscious customers at either.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Everyone was raising wages, so everyone’s prices also went up, and Walmart still likely has the best cheap:convenient ratio. Point is Walmart can’t choose to raise everyone’s wages 6%, unless everyone else does too, because the whole reason people go to Walmart is it’s the cheapest. Costco targets people with more disposable income, so not exactly a comparable market.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Historically, Walmart thrived in relatively small town, rural areas. When I was homeless in downtown San Diego, I had to take a bus elsewhere to occasionally visit the Walmart. There aren't any in the downtown area. They don't typically do well in the big city. You presume people have those options. You presume they can readily and conveniently get to them in a way that makes financial and logistical sense. In my small town, people who hate Walmart and are happy to drive an hour to a bigger city once a month to "visit the city" and do some of their shopping grudgingly shop at Walmart because it's the only source for a lot of things, even if you are happy to pay more money just to spite Walmart. People from even smaller towns around us take the bus to shop here (or drive here), mostly at the Walmart. My small town is a regional shopping hub and has shopping and eateries more like a city several times larger because of it. We still can't reasonably get away from shopping at Walmart. Don't get me wrong. I'm a Walmart fan and wouldn't have moved here if there was no Walmart. I'm just saying I've spoken with a local who hates Walmart and grudgingly does some of their shopping there anyway because they can't always find reasonable alternatives, try though they might.

by jopsen 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Everything I have ever read indicates that white Americans don't want farm labor jobs even if you pay $20/hour.

jazzyk 7y ago
That's because they would never be able to afford basic things like: - college education ($30K-$75K/year, preceded by purchasing a shack for $800K in a good-school town) - health care ($25K/year for a high-deductible family plan) What's the point? Or do we consider education or healthcare luxury now?
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  America has long treated both education and healthcare as luxury items that only the rich deserve. We need to fix those things. They are negatively impacting quite a lot of people. The lack of healthcare is hardly peculiar to farm labor jobs.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    In the US school is free for 13 years. After that there are scholarships for the poor. Healthcare is expensive, but there are programs for the poor. When you move out of poor things get hard quick though because you don't get the above and so you have to come up with the prices you quote.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
What people want to do work that damaged their body, is subject to short term changes in demand due to weather and has high income instability, and leads to no future growth? $20/hour for temporary backbreaking work in exchange for not being near friends or family, having to move constantly, having to live in a rural area (not what most people want), having no upward income mobility. The people that do it, do it because they have no better option. Not because they want to.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  > The people that do it, do it because they have no better option. Not because they want to. Isn't that most people in their current job?
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Yes, but I would say as you go down in income, there’s almost zero of “wanting” to do the job and mostly “needing” to do it. Whereas an engineer might answer that they like the work they do, I doubt someone bending over all day and picking strawberries would.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      I've been dirt poor for years. I'm a freelance writer by trade. I like writing. I've always wanted to be a writer. I hate being poor, of course. I've been told for years to "go get a real job." I'm medically handicapped. For that and other reasons I can't readily "just go get a real job." The fact that you hate the working conditions and pay doesn't mean you inherently hate the work. There are people who garden as a relaxing and enjoyable hobby. The assumption that all poorly paid people hate their work and all well paid people enjoy their work sounds like classist prejudice to me. I knew someone (a programmer, in fact) who made good money, got fed up with the job and they we're told by someone close to them "You can't just up and quit. A job at Home Depot wouldn't even cover your car payment." I've also seen stuff on the internet from people who are miserable, desperately want to change jobs and feel stuck because they make good money and can't readily walk away from their good income. They have family to support or college loans to pay or whatever. What you find is that even people who are overall happy will bitch about their job or whatever, if only because it's a socially acceptable bonding ritual. Bragging to the miserable people around you about how everything in your life works wonderfully well all the time is a good way to get everyone to hate you. There are real quality of life issues for low paid work, farm labor work, etc. But there are farm laborers who live in Mexico and work the fields in the US because they like living in Mexico, they have no desire to move to America and it pays ten times better than jobs in their town. Not all of these people feel exploited or victimized. Exploitation isn't a good thing in any job, but it's not somehow the inherently part of doing physical labor and inherently not part of the picture for jobs with better public perception.

jandrewrogers 7y ago

Migrant labor was $20-25/hour over a decade ago in parts of the rural US where I knew the rough market rate. You are greatly underestimating what a market clearing wage that would entice people to live out there looks like. The $100+k oil companies are required to pay to entice Americans to work in their remote oil fields is much closer to the reality.

jopsen 7y ago
Aren't oil companies looking for skilled labor?

Scoundreller 7y ago

The reality is, the proportion of your fresh fruit cost that is migrant labour isn't very much. If that cost only were passed on, we wouldn't see much of a difference in price. Kinda how like Walmart could double the wage of its retail employees by increasing its prices by 6%.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
And then Walmart would fail because everyone would shop at target or Another store. In a low margin business, every percent counts.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  'cept Walmart has been raising its corporate minimum wage. Then there's Costco that has always paid a wage about the prevailing for retail. No shortage of price-conscious customers at either.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Everyone was raising wages, so everyone’s prices also went up, and Walmart still likely has the best cheap:convenient ratio. Point is Walmart can’t choose to raise everyone’s wages 6%, unless everyone else does too, because the whole reason people go to Walmart is it’s the cheapest. Costco targets people with more disposable income, so not exactly a comparable market.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Historically, Walmart thrived in relatively small town, rural areas. When I was homeless in downtown San Diego, I had to take a bus elsewhere to occasionally visit the Walmart. There aren't any in the downtown area. They don't typically do well in the big city. You presume people have those options. You presume they can readily and conveniently get to them in a way that makes financial and logistical sense. In my small town, people who hate Walmart and are happy to drive an hour to a bigger city once a month to "visit the city" and do some of their shopping grudgingly shop at Walmart because it's the only source for a lot of things, even if you are happy to pay more money just to spite Walmart. People from even smaller towns around us take the bus to shop here (or drive here), mostly at the Walmart. My small town is a regional shopping hub and has shopping and eateries more like a city several times larger because of it. We still can't reasonably get away from shopping at Walmart. Don't get me wrong. I'm a Walmart fan and wouldn't have moved here if there was no Walmart. I'm just saying I've spoken with a local who hates Walmart and grudgingly does some of their shopping there anyway because they can't always find reasonable alternatives, try though they might.