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> As quarantined millions gather virtually on conferencing platforms, the best of those, Zoom, is doing very well. Why would Zoom care about their privacy issu

> As quarantined millions gather virtually on conferencing platforms, the best of those, Zoom, is doing very well. Why would Zoom care about their privacy issues if they're doing so well off? Seems like that's a good amount of positive reinforcement that their current approach is the right one to them. Maybe they'll lose a few thousand customers because of it, but given what I'm sure was a huge increase in the past few weeks, why would it be something they're concerned about?

chaps 7y ago
Because it's the right thing to do.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Right, but they are a US corporation in California. The "right thing to do" is pretty much at the end of their priorities list.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I don't think geography really changes the incentives.
    - TallGuyShort 7y ago
      It changes the culture. In my experience, Silicon Valley companies have more of a culture of growing at all costs. And they're either fanatical about privacy or they'll sell you out to the highest, middle, and lowest bidders all at once, then give it away free through an unpatched security hole too.
      - quickthrower2 7y ago
        I think assholes that want to make money at any cost are everywhere, in every city in every country in the world. Let’s not be naive. Maybe California gives birth to a higher number of big companies that are also famous and so is more visible.
        luckylion 7y ago
        They are, but they aren't that concentrated and networked and their attitude isn't that ingrained in the culture. You'll always have assholes, but if you have few non-assholes, it's a culture issue, not an asshole-issue.
        quickthrower2 7y ago
        Maybe sf is an asshole magnet rather than an asshole breeder. Without sf they’d go somewhere else after all “if I didn’t then someone else would” is the ethical excuse of the asshole.
        rhizome 7y ago
        Let's not be naive, the VCs are in SV so the assholes flock there. 150 years ago they were named "carpetbaggers."
- nck4222 7y ago
  I agree, but Zoom is a publicly traded company. Their incentives aren't necessarily aligned with the public good. The question is "why should Zoom leadership care about the recent privacy concerns if the vast majority of their customers don't care?" Their stock is up over 6% today while the market is down 4% (volatility caveats here obviously). So far the privacy concerns don't seem to be impacting the companies short or long term prospects, so I wouldn't expect the company to do the right thing.
  - chaps 7y ago
    Surely, though, there is a way for zoom to do both at the same time. That you and one of your sibling posts gives them some benefit of the doubt (or at least the appearance of it) is... sad.
    - nck4222 7y ago
      I'm not sure where I gave the impression of being ok with what zoom is doing, but I'm not. I'm saying this is the expected course given the incentives we as a society have established for companies. Hoping zoom and other companies prioritize the public good over profits is foolish, and the solution is to align profits with the public good.
      - chaps 7y ago
        It's because your response is the intellectual equivalent of throwing your hands in the air simply because you don't think you can have any contribution towards fixing the problem, and the only course of action forward is to simply describe why things are the way they are. It's complacent, and it's sad. It's a lot like someone complaining about Trump being elected, and you respond with "Yeah, but we live in a Democracy". It's not a very helpful comment, and it doesn't get us anywhere except to keep us in the exact same place we are today.
        nck4222 7y ago
        >simply describe why things are the way they are. It's complacent, and it's sad. >It's not a very helpful comment I would think understanding the problem would be the first step to solving it. I'm not sitting here pretending I have all the answers. I saw an opportunity to shed some light on the situation so I commented. It seems weird to me that your critical of me for not contributing thoughts related directly to a solution, when you haven't contributed any thoughts about a solution either. To each their own I suppose. But consider me thoroughly uninterested in discussing this further, which, seems to be what you wanted from me anyway.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
Because the EU is on lockdown, lots of EU citizens now using Zoom, and all of those users are potential liabilities due to GDPR issues.
- seanhunter 7y ago
  The UK cabinet has been meeting on Zoom during the crisis. It was in a media shot issued by 10 downing st yesterday.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    UK cabinet is about to find out what "zoom bombing" means the hard way...
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    is GDPR still in effect in UK?
    - xiphias2 7y ago
      I think yes, EU laws are in effect until end of the year, to have time to create new regulations.
    - seanhunter 7y ago
      Yes it is, and even after the UK leaves the EU the provisions of GDPR will be part of UK law until some future government enacts law to change that.
  - jeltz 7y ago
    Sounds like even more reason for Zoom to care. The more high profile they get the more like it is for EU privacy watchdogs to go after them.
api 7y ago
The unfortunate wisdom in business is "nobody cares about privacy or security," and in my experience it's true. Outside a small number of people nobody even asks these questions. With our own product ZeroTier we get maybe 1-2 questions a year about privacy and so far only a few enterprise customers have even asked about the security of encryption and authentication. "It's encrypted" is good enough for 99.9% of the market. Encrypted with what? A cereal box cipher? Nobody cares. What do people care about? In my experience its ease of use, ease of use, ease of use, ease of use, and ease of use, in no particular order. An app that's a privacy and security dumpster fire but is very easy to set up and use will win hands down over a better engineered one that requires even one or two more steps to set up.
- seanhunter 7y ago
  My experience is diametrically opposite to that. All of our clients are large enterprises and the security and privacy features are very closely examined during procurement literally every time. We haven't had a single client conversation that is remotely like what you're describing. Might be because our clients are banks but they really care about this stuff.
  - TrickyRick 7y ago
    Completely agree with this, banks care. They don't always care in the best of ways, usually it's just about ticking a box in a spreadsheet, but at least they ask.
  - api 7y ago
    The few customers we've had that ask are large, so yes. I am speaking of the majority of individuals and small businesses.
  - thoraway1010 7y ago
    Actually - you'll be surprised at the shadow IT going on at places like this. Users will literally BEG anyone who knows how to get around these systems how to do so. It's why your banker might use their cell phone for a zoom client when everyone else is on a computer - their work computer is locked down. Govt employees often the same way. You'll notice they are doing the phone call in or phone client vs their computer. Lot's of companies, zoom included, get in through the user side not the big webex / cisco type sales process.
randomsearch 7y ago
OTOH if you’re making money from your product why trash it yourselves
bradly 7y ago
The reason Zoom is doing so well is part of its vulnerability. There is very little vendor lock-in with virtual conferencing platforms. If something new/better comes out next month, there isn't much a company will give up by switching vendors. There is little to no infrastructure to setup/maintain. This is the same reason Slack's popularity has skyrocketed. Because of the lack of history and transient nature of the content shared in them, these areas are quick to gain popularity, but also quick to be replaced when a better product emerges.
- kardos 7y ago
  > This is the same reason Slack's popularity has skyrocketed. Because of the lack of history <snip> Slack's business model [1] is storing all history and charging for access for it. Nothing transient about that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)#Business_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)#Business_mode...
  - tinalumfoil 7y ago
    Is it common to want to keep all that history? My understanding was it's best practice to delete chats after a certain period to limit the surface area of any potential legal discovery.
    - daxelrod 7y ago
      Ah, but Slack doesn't delete the history either unless you pay them: https://slack.com/help/articles/203457187-Customize-message-and-file-retention-policies https://slack.com/help/articles/203457187-Customize-message-... On the free tier it's still there, on their servers.
    - selectodude 7y ago
      For a lot of industries, deleting internal communication is illegal. For any publicly traded company in the US, all internal communication needs to be archived for five years.

chaps 7y ago

Because it's the right thing to do.

luckylion 7y ago
Right, but they are a US corporation in California. The "right thing to do" is pretty much at the end of their priorities list.
- duxup 7y ago
  I don't think geography really changes the incentives.
  - TallGuyShort 7y ago
    It changes the culture. In my experience, Silicon Valley companies have more of a culture of growing at all costs. And they're either fanatical about privacy or they'll sell you out to the highest, middle, and lowest bidders all at once, then give it away free through an unpatched security hole too.
    - quickthrower2 7y ago
      I think assholes that want to make money at any cost are everywhere, in every city in every country in the world. Let’s not be naive. Maybe California gives birth to a higher number of big companies that are also famous and so is more visible.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        They are, but they aren't that concentrated and networked and their attitude isn't that ingrained in the culture. You'll always have assholes, but if you have few non-assholes, it's a culture issue, not an asshole-issue.
        quickthrower2 7y ago
        Maybe sf is an asshole magnet rather than an asshole breeder. Without sf they’d go somewhere else after all “if I didn’t then someone else would” is the ethical excuse of the asshole.
      - rhizome 7y ago
        Let's not be naive, the VCs are in SV so the assholes flock there. 150 years ago they were named "carpetbaggers."
nck4222 7y ago
I agree, but Zoom is a publicly traded company. Their incentives aren't necessarily aligned with the public good. The question is "why should Zoom leadership care about the recent privacy concerns if the vast majority of their customers don't care?" Their stock is up over 6% today while the market is down 4% (volatility caveats here obviously). So far the privacy concerns don't seem to be impacting the companies short or long term prospects, so I wouldn't expect the company to do the right thing.
- chaps 7y ago
  Surely, though, there is a way for zoom to do both at the same time. That you and one of your sibling posts gives them some benefit of the doubt (or at least the appearance of it) is... sad.
  - nck4222 7y ago
    I'm not sure where I gave the impression of being ok with what zoom is doing, but I'm not. I'm saying this is the expected course given the incentives we as a society have established for companies. Hoping zoom and other companies prioritize the public good over profits is foolish, and the solution is to align profits with the public good.
    - chaps 7y ago
      It's because your response is the intellectual equivalent of throwing your hands in the air simply because you don't think you can have any contribution towards fixing the problem, and the only course of action forward is to simply describe why things are the way they are. It's complacent, and it's sad. It's a lot like someone complaining about Trump being elected, and you respond with "Yeah, but we live in a Democracy". It's not a very helpful comment, and it doesn't get us anywhere except to keep us in the exact same place we are today.
      - nck4222 7y ago
        >simply describe why things are the way they are. It's complacent, and it's sad. >It's not a very helpful comment I would think understanding the problem would be the first step to solving it. I'm not sitting here pretending I have all the answers. I saw an opportunity to shed some light on the situation so I commented. It seems weird to me that your critical of me for not contributing thoughts related directly to a solution, when you haven't contributed any thoughts about a solution either. To each their own I suppose. But consider me thoroughly uninterested in discussing this further, which, seems to be what you wanted from me anyway.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

Because the EU is on lockdown, lots of EU citizens now using Zoom, and all of those users are potential liabilities due to GDPR issues.

seanhunter 7y ago
The UK cabinet has been meeting on Zoom during the crisis. It was in a media shot issued by 10 downing st yesterday.
- panpanna 7y ago
  UK cabinet is about to find out what "zoom bombing" means the hard way...
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  is GDPR still in effect in UK?
  - xiphias2 7y ago
    I think yes, EU laws are in effect until end of the year, to have time to create new regulations.
  - seanhunter 7y ago
    Yes it is, and even after the UK leaves the EU the provisions of GDPR will be part of UK law until some future government enacts law to change that.
- jeltz 7y ago
  Sounds like even more reason for Zoom to care. The more high profile they get the more like it is for EU privacy watchdogs to go after them.

api 7y ago

The unfortunate wisdom in business is "nobody cares about privacy or security," and in my experience it's true. Outside a small number of people nobody even asks these questions. With our own product ZeroTier we get maybe 1-2 questions a year about privacy and so far only a few enterprise customers have even asked about the security of encryption and authentication. "It's encrypted" is good enough for 99.9% of the market. Encrypted with what? A cereal box cipher? Nobody cares. What do people care about? In my experience its ease of use, ease of use, ease of use, ease of use, and ease of use, in no particular order. An app that's a privacy and security dumpster fire but is very easy to set up and use will win hands down over a better engineered one that requires even one or two more steps to set up.

seanhunter 7y ago
My experience is diametrically opposite to that. All of our clients are large enterprises and the security and privacy features are very closely examined during procurement literally every time. We haven't had a single client conversation that is remotely like what you're describing. Might be because our clients are banks but they really care about this stuff.
- TrickyRick 7y ago
  Completely agree with this, banks care. They don't always care in the best of ways, usually it's just about ticking a box in a spreadsheet, but at least they ask.
- api 7y ago
  The few customers we've had that ask are large, so yes. I am speaking of the majority of individuals and small businesses.
- thoraway1010 7y ago
  Actually - you'll be surprised at the shadow IT going on at places like this. Users will literally BEG anyone who knows how to get around these systems how to do so. It's why your banker might use their cell phone for a zoom client when everyone else is on a computer - their work computer is locked down. Govt employees often the same way. You'll notice they are doing the phone call in or phone client vs their computer. Lot's of companies, zoom included, get in through the user side not the big webex / cisco type sales process.

randomsearch 7y ago

OTOH if you’re making money from your product why trash it yourselves

bradly 7y ago

The reason Zoom is doing so well is part of its vulnerability. There is very little vendor lock-in with virtual conferencing platforms. If something new/better comes out next month, there isn't much a company will give up by switching vendors. There is little to no infrastructure to setup/maintain. This is the same reason Slack's popularity has skyrocketed. Because of the lack of history and transient nature of the content shared in them, these areas are quick to gain popularity, but also quick to be replaced when a better product emerges.

kardos 7y ago
> This is the same reason Slack's popularity has skyrocketed. Because of the lack of history <snip> Slack's business model [1] is storing all history and charging for access for it. Nothing transient about that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)#Business_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)#Business_mode...
- tinalumfoil 7y ago
  Is it common to want to keep all that history? My understanding was it's best practice to delete chats after a certain period to limit the surface area of any potential legal discovery.
  - daxelrod 7y ago
    Ah, but Slack doesn't delete the history either unless you pay them: https://slack.com/help/articles/203457187-Customize-message-and-file-retention-policies https://slack.com/help/articles/203457187-Customize-message-... On the free tier it's still there, on their servers.
  - selectodude 7y ago
    For a lot of industries, deleting internal communication is illegal. For any publicly traded company in the US, all internal communication needs to be archived for five years.