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It would be like if a global pandemic was traced back to the U.S. 300 yards from Fort Detrick. Any rational person would take notice of this but instead it's la

It would be like if a global pandemic was traced back to the U.S. 300 yards from Fort Detrick. Any rational person would take notice of this but instead it's labeled a conspiracy theory.

paganel 7y ago
What is more crazy is that there is no international pressure for China to at least temporarily close down that research institute. The international community should have also demanded for immediate inspections on the institute's premises as soon as this virus started going worldwide, for crying out loud, we've had wars started because of some aerial photos of some metal tubes in the Iraqi desert but instead this is treated like "super-power business as usual".
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Supermancho 7y ago
  > What is more crazy is that there is no international pressure for China to at least temporarily close down that research institute. Why is that crazy? Unless you're suspecting the Chinese of designing a fairly dull viral weapon that they first released on their own people, I'm not sure why anyone would care to go through the doors. Sweet jungle meat from a wet market is the likely source, as with many of these kinds of virii over the centuries.
  - paganel 7y ago
    > Sweet jungle meat from a wet market is the likely source There are numerous reports of the wet market source not being the actual source. I've never said that the Chinese have released this virus on purpose, I did in fact imply though that the Chinese created this virus on purpose (how it got out in the wild is anybody's guess). Having countries creating bio-weapons in 2020 should be grounds for war, no matter if they release it or not. Later edit: Now I saw that you said "dull viral weapon", what do you find so "dull" about a virus that has put the whole world economy on its knees in a matter of 4-5 weeks? Yes, it's not as gore-y as Ebola but it's an order of magnitude (at least) more effective in bringing us down as a species.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      > I've never said that the Chinese have released this virus on purpose, I did in fact imply though that the Chinese created this virus on purpose There is zero credible evidence that this virus was engineered in any way. What we do have is detailed genomic analysis done by actual virologists, comparing it with coronavirii from the vast pools in animal populations, that can trace its natural evolution [1]. This analysis and ongoing surveillance is how virologists and epidemiologists hope to predict future epidemics. 1 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
  - parshimers 7y ago
    No one (in this thread at least) is claiming it's a weapon. The point is that the research lab at the center of this pandemic has, and continues to, research and collect viruses just like SARS-CoV-2. The authorities in Wuhan also tried to cover up the outbreak before it became too severe to deny. It may be a coincidence, but it also may not.
    - tim333 7y ago
      The coverup stuff seems suspicious. Also >Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive titled: “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.” https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/?link=mktw&mod=article_inline https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coro... shortly after.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    > weapon that they first released on their own people I don't think anyone suspects that it was a weapon. A totally non-selective weapon like this would be extremely stupid. But it still could have come from that lab, and such a theory should not be discarded for the time being.
  - ralph84 7y ago
    That the Wuhan Institute of Virology was doing research on engineered coronaviruses isn't in dispute. They have published several research papers describing their work over the last 10 years. It wouldn't have had to have been a deliberate release for SARS-CoV-2 to have come from there. Accidents happen, and there have been several accidental releases of the original SARS-CoV from Chinese labs. It's also not beyond the realm of possibilities that someone tasked with destroying animals that were research subjects decided to make a few extra yuan selling them to the wet market across the street instead.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      > there have been several accidental releases of the original SARS-CoV from Chinese labs. I've never heard of any accidental escapes of SARS. Do you have a source for this claim?
      - ralph84 7y ago
        https://nationalpost.com/news/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-viruses-escaping-from-labs-70s-chinese-pandemic-was-a-lab-mistake https://nationalpost.com/news/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-... > SARS has not re-emerged naturally, but there have been six escapes from virology labs: one each in Singapore and Taiwan, and four separate escapes at the same laboratory in Beijing.
        nate_meurer 7y ago
        Perfect, thank you. The links in that article don't work for me, but they do in the original essay from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists: https://thebulletin.org/2014/03/threatened-pandemics-and-laboratory-escapes-self-fulfilling-prophecies/ https://thebulletin.org/2014/03/threatened-pandemics-and-lab... Those accidents are fucking terrifying. I'm not sure whether to be more scared of that, or of wet markets and antibiotic-soaked factory swine/cattle/poultry farms. Humanity certainly isn't taking any of this seriously enough.
  - bragh 7y ago
    I think that when you look at both the properties of the virus (fairly long-tailed inhibition period, large proportion of carriers not displaying any symptoms, being infectious even after becoming healthy yourself, life-long consequences even for people who survive, aerosol spread and so on) and the results so far (the human lives + medicine systems of so far only a few countries + The Next Big Depression), it is not 'a fairly dull viral weapon'. Sure, if you think of it in terms of being a weapon, it's not an armageddon weapon, but very few madmen want those anyway.
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  Shutting down virology labs would be the stupidest, most self destructive thing we could do right now. The Wuhan Institute of Virology has probably the best equipped and most experienced coronavirus researchers in the world. Within weeks of the start of the outbreak, they had sequenced the virus' genome, published it widely and publicly, and immediately started investigating antivirals. They remain on the forefront of the fight. The virologists there are very active publishers, and by all accounts among the very best in their field. And now they're pissed off. Here's a snippet from the institute's coronavirus lead, defending them from an onslaught of insane and stupid conspiracy theories: > [Shi Zhengli] said on her social media account that she “guaranteed with her own life” that the outbreak had nothing to do with the lab but was a “nemesis for the barbaric habits and lifestyle of some people – like eating wild game including bats.” Chinese researchers and doctors have generally been among those most willing to push back against the CCP's misinformation and censorship. Of all people, why in the FUCK would we want to muzzle these guys?
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    Imagine taking someone in that position at their word.
  - neuronic 7y ago
    Of course shutting the institute is severely irrational, just like the parent comment. Spouting the nutjob conspiracy theory and complaining about how everything is labeled a conspiracy theory. Then effectively calling for war. Some insane people with real brain issues on this forum. Everything is a big conspiracy and the big shadow government tries to hunt them down in their shitty Alabama basement.
codekilla 7y ago
Also worth noting is that the term conspiracy theory is itself traceable to psyops.

It would be like if a global pandemic was traced back to the U.S. 300 yards from Fort Detrick. Any rational person would take notice of this but instead it's labeled a conspiracy theory.

paganel 7y ago

What is more crazy is that there is no international pressure for China to at least temporarily close down that research institute. The international community should have also demanded for immediate inspections on the institute's premises as soon as this virus started going worldwide, for crying out loud, we've had wars started because of some aerial photos of some metal tubes in the Iraqi desert but instead this is treated like "super-power business as usual".

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Supermancho 7y ago
> What is more crazy is that there is no international pressure for China to at least temporarily close down that research institute. Why is that crazy? Unless you're suspecting the Chinese of designing a fairly dull viral weapon that they first released on their own people, I'm not sure why anyone would care to go through the doors. Sweet jungle meat from a wet market is the likely source, as with many of these kinds of virii over the centuries.
- paganel 7y ago
  > Sweet jungle meat from a wet market is the likely source There are numerous reports of the wet market source not being the actual source. I've never said that the Chinese have released this virus on purpose, I did in fact imply though that the Chinese created this virus on purpose (how it got out in the wild is anybody's guess). Having countries creating bio-weapons in 2020 should be grounds for war, no matter if they release it or not. Later edit: Now I saw that you said "dull viral weapon", what do you find so "dull" about a virus that has put the whole world economy on its knees in a matter of 4-5 weeks? Yes, it's not as gore-y as Ebola but it's an order of magnitude (at least) more effective in bringing us down as a species.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    > I've never said that the Chinese have released this virus on purpose, I did in fact imply though that the Chinese created this virus on purpose There is zero credible evidence that this virus was engineered in any way. What we do have is detailed genomic analysis done by actual virologists, comparing it with coronavirii from the vast pools in animal populations, that can trace its natural evolution [1]. This analysis and ongoing surveillance is how virologists and epidemiologists hope to predict future epidemics. 1 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
- parshimers 7y ago
  No one (in this thread at least) is claiming it's a weapon. The point is that the research lab at the center of this pandemic has, and continues to, research and collect viruses just like SARS-CoV-2. The authorities in Wuhan also tried to cover up the outbreak before it became too severe to deny. It may be a coincidence, but it also may not.
  - tim333 7y ago
    The coverup stuff seems suspicious. Also >Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive titled: “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.” https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/?link=mktw&mod=article_inline https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coro... shortly after.
- m0zg 7y ago
  > weapon that they first released on their own people I don't think anyone suspects that it was a weapon. A totally non-selective weapon like this would be extremely stupid. But it still could have come from that lab, and such a theory should not be discarded for the time being.
- ralph84 7y ago
  That the Wuhan Institute of Virology was doing research on engineered coronaviruses isn't in dispute. They have published several research papers describing their work over the last 10 years. It wouldn't have had to have been a deliberate release for SARS-CoV-2 to have come from there. Accidents happen, and there have been several accidental releases of the original SARS-CoV from Chinese labs. It's also not beyond the realm of possibilities that someone tasked with destroying animals that were research subjects decided to make a few extra yuan selling them to the wet market across the street instead.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    > there have been several accidental releases of the original SARS-CoV from Chinese labs. I've never heard of any accidental escapes of SARS. Do you have a source for this claim?
    - ralph84 7y ago
      https://nationalpost.com/news/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-viruses-escaping-from-labs-70s-chinese-pandemic-was-a-lab-mistake https://nationalpost.com/news/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-... > SARS has not re-emerged naturally, but there have been six escapes from virology labs: one each in Singapore and Taiwan, and four separate escapes at the same laboratory in Beijing.
      - nate_meurer 7y ago
        Perfect, thank you. The links in that article don't work for me, but they do in the original essay from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists: https://thebulletin.org/2014/03/threatened-pandemics-and-laboratory-escapes-self-fulfilling-prophecies/ https://thebulletin.org/2014/03/threatened-pandemics-and-lab... Those accidents are fucking terrifying. I'm not sure whether to be more scared of that, or of wet markets and antibiotic-soaked factory swine/cattle/poultry farms. Humanity certainly isn't taking any of this seriously enough.
- bragh 7y ago
  I think that when you look at both the properties of the virus (fairly long-tailed inhibition period, large proportion of carriers not displaying any symptoms, being infectious even after becoming healthy yourself, life-long consequences even for people who survive, aerosol spread and so on) and the results so far (the human lives + medicine systems of so far only a few countries + The Next Big Depression), it is not 'a fairly dull viral weapon'. Sure, if you think of it in terms of being a weapon, it's not an armageddon weapon, but very few madmen want those anyway.
nate_meurer 7y ago
Shutting down virology labs would be the stupidest, most self destructive thing we could do right now. The Wuhan Institute of Virology has probably the best equipped and most experienced coronavirus researchers in the world. Within weeks of the start of the outbreak, they had sequenced the virus' genome, published it widely and publicly, and immediately started investigating antivirals. They remain on the forefront of the fight. The virologists there are very active publishers, and by all accounts among the very best in their field. And now they're pissed off. Here's a snippet from the institute's coronavirus lead, defending them from an onslaught of insane and stupid conspiracy theories: > [Shi Zhengli] said on her social media account that she “guaranteed with her own life” that the outbreak had nothing to do with the lab but was a “nemesis for the barbaric habits and lifestyle of some people – like eating wild game including bats.” Chinese researchers and doctors have generally been among those most willing to push back against the CCP's misinformation and censorship. Of all people, why in the FUCK would we want to muzzle these guys?
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  Imagine taking someone in that position at their word.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Of course shutting the institute is severely irrational, just like the parent comment. Spouting the nutjob conspiracy theory and complaining about how everything is labeled a conspiracy theory. Then effectively calling for war. Some insane people with real brain issues on this forum. Everything is a big conspiracy and the big shadow government tries to hunt them down in their shitty Alabama basement.

codekilla 7y ago

Also worth noting is that the term conspiracy theory is itself traceable to psyops.