5 ms·

I don't know what you can see, but the full title shows that it's about websites and their info section shows that they only analyzed websites. "In order to an

I don't know what you can see, but the full title shows that it's about websites and their info section shows that they only analyzed websites. "In order to analyze these websites..." i get what you mean, but i think that's a bit more about reading comprehension than what they've been doing.

dperfect 7y ago
Yes, you and I both recognize that they're only talking about the VPN's own websites, but I'd bet good money that a majority of less-technical readers (not HN readers) won't understand that distinction. It feels like the author knows that, and deliberately failed to point out the fact that the tracking in question doesn't affect a person's privacy while using the VPNs. Case in point: > Remember, these trackers are made so that they can track your online behavior, and follow you wherever you go on the internet. Having even 1 of them on your website really defeats any argument for ultimate privacy and anonymity. Tell me that isn't trying to scare the reader into thinking the trackers can follow your activity while using the VPNs.
- fyrefoxboy12 7y ago
  I see what you mean. A little bit of "reasonable ignorance" but full understanding on the author's side that people don't read full sentences (or long titles). nonetheless, the research is still valuable. not very surprising that those antivirus companies with vpns have such huge numbers of trackers
- zo1 7y ago
  I'm a technical person, and the title absolutely baffles me. "Top VPNs Recording Users" <-- By itself, this sounds bad and forces me to read the article to get more info. Most people won't, and it muddies the water. Recording users implies that they are somehow recording the browsing history of people using their VPNs. This is the immediate connection a non-technical and technical person would make here. Let's be honest. "Potentially Leaking Data When Visiting Their Sites" <-- What does this even mean. I am leaking what data, and how would I be leaking it to their site? Why is this pertinent and what does it have to do with them recording users? Are they recording users history and leaking it to their own sites? So many questions, so much click-bait. The net result is that I had to waste time trying to figure out whether this article was correctly backing up what its title conveyed. I have now given them ad-views, trust the VPNPro website even less, and the web is less well off in general because some > 0 amount of people will start mistrusting VPNs and VPN-review sites.
  - teslademigod1 7y ago
    Yeah... but that last part is crucial "... when they visit their website" It's like a title saying "US government tracks travelers when they visit the US" I wouldn't right off the bat assume that the US gov't is tracking all travelers all the time. I'd assume it's only when they land in the US
    - zo1 7y ago
      I know it's the crucial part, that's why they included it in the title as an easy-out in case someone calls them out on their dishonesty. I'd rewrite your example as below in order to more clearly illustrate how I view the VPN title: US DoHS Keeping Track On World travelers movements, potentially leaking data when visiting the US. Note the main title, then the comma, and then the minor clarification. Firstly, the "main" point is at the beginning so that's the one that has the most effect and evokes an emotional response that colors the entire reading. Secondly, the last portion is separated with a comma, adds two points, doesn't clearly state how it modifies the first part of the title and is also ambiguous on its own. It vaguely confuses that tracking happens when they visit the US with the interpretation that the tracking happens all the time but only leaks when they visit the US. It also allows your interpretation that they only tracking while they visit the US. The comma should at the very least have been an "and". If we wanted a real title that wasn't click-bait, here is my stab at it: Top VPN providers record website-visitor's click/browsing behavior on their sites, potentially leaking it to metric providers with various degrees of anonymization. OR. Analysis of User-Behavior Tools On VPN Providers' Sites. <- This last one shows we can have an honest internet that isn't driven by click-bait, and could instead rely on the integrity of publications and the authors.
      - blaser-waffle 7y ago
        > US DoHS Keeping Track On World travelers movements, potentially leaking data when visiting the US. Even with you changes it still looks easy to tweak or turn into click bate. "Potentially" is a weasel-word, because even safe things could potentially go wrong. "Every time you fart you spread germs, potentially infecting everyone in the room around you with cholera or other diseases" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
GrinningFool 7y ago
> I don't know what you can see, but the > full title shows that it's about websites "Top Virtual Private Networks recording users, potentially leaking data when visiting their web sites" When the acronym is expanded, the title strongly suggests a problem with the networks, not VPN providers.
- fyrefoxboy12 7y ago
  Well, I meant the full title when you click through to the page: "Top VPNs are recording users and potentially leaking their data when they visit their website" I had to truncate it here to fit

dperfect 7y ago

Yes, you and I both recognize that they're only talking about the VPN's own websites, but I'd bet good money that a majority of less-technical readers (not HN readers) won't understand that distinction. It feels like the author knows that, and deliberately failed to point out the fact that the tracking in question doesn't affect a person's privacy while using the VPNs. Case in point: > Remember, these trackers are made so that they can track your online behavior, and follow you wherever you go on the internet. Having even 1 of them on your website really defeats any argument for ultimate privacy and anonymity. Tell me that isn't trying to scare the reader into thinking the trackers can follow your activity while using the VPNs.

fyrefoxboy12 7y ago
I see what you mean. A little bit of "reasonable ignorance" but full understanding on the author's side that people don't read full sentences (or long titles). nonetheless, the research is still valuable. not very surprising that those antivirus companies with vpns have such huge numbers of trackers
zo1 7y ago
I'm a technical person, and the title absolutely baffles me. "Top VPNs Recording Users" <-- By itself, this sounds bad and forces me to read the article to get more info. Most people won't, and it muddies the water. Recording users implies that they are somehow recording the browsing history of people using their VPNs. This is the immediate connection a non-technical and technical person would make here. Let's be honest. "Potentially Leaking Data When Visiting Their Sites" <-- What does this even mean. I am leaking what data, and how would I be leaking it to their site? Why is this pertinent and what does it have to do with them recording users? Are they recording users history and leaking it to their own sites? So many questions, so much click-bait. The net result is that I had to waste time trying to figure out whether this article was correctly backing up what its title conveyed. I have now given them ad-views, trust the VPNPro website even less, and the web is less well off in general because some > 0 amount of people will start mistrusting VPNs and VPN-review sites.
- teslademigod1 7y ago
  Yeah... but that last part is crucial "... when they visit their website" It's like a title saying "US government tracks travelers when they visit the US" I wouldn't right off the bat assume that the US gov't is tracking all travelers all the time. I'd assume it's only when they land in the US
  - zo1 7y ago
    I know it's the crucial part, that's why they included it in the title as an easy-out in case someone calls them out on their dishonesty. I'd rewrite your example as below in order to more clearly illustrate how I view the VPN title: US DoHS Keeping Track On World travelers movements, potentially leaking data when visiting the US. Note the main title, then the comma, and then the minor clarification. Firstly, the "main" point is at the beginning so that's the one that has the most effect and evokes an emotional response that colors the entire reading. Secondly, the last portion is separated with a comma, adds two points, doesn't clearly state how it modifies the first part of the title and is also ambiguous on its own. It vaguely confuses that tracking happens when they visit the US with the interpretation that the tracking happens all the time but only leaks when they visit the US. It also allows your interpretation that they only tracking while they visit the US. The comma should at the very least have been an "and". If we wanted a real title that wasn't click-bait, here is my stab at it: Top VPN providers record website-visitor's click/browsing behavior on their sites, potentially leaking it to metric providers with various degrees of anonymization. OR. Analysis of User-Behavior Tools On VPN Providers' Sites. <- This last one shows we can have an honest internet that isn't driven by click-bait, and could instead rely on the integrity of publications and the authors.
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      > US DoHS Keeping Track On World travelers movements, potentially leaking data when visiting the US. Even with you changes it still looks easy to tweak or turn into click bate. "Potentially" is a weasel-word, because even safe things could potentially go wrong. "Every time you fart you spread germs, potentially infecting everyone in the room around you with cholera or other diseases" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

GrinningFool 7y ago

> I don't know what you can see, but the > full title shows that it's about websites "Top Virtual Private Networks recording users, potentially leaking data when visiting their web sites" When the acronym is expanded, the title strongly suggests a problem with the networks, not VPN providers.

fyrefoxboy12 7y ago
Well, I meant the full title when you click through to the page: "Top VPNs are recording users and potentially leaking their data when they visit their website" I had to truncate it here to fit