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> Politics here has changed forever Unlikely. I think we'll be back to business as usual (at least on the political side) within a year of the end of the pande

> Politics here has changed forever Unlikely. I think we'll be back to business as usual (at least on the political side) within a year of the end of the pandemic. I'm also afraid that this is going to be a major setback not just for Europe but globalization in general, which will leave us all worse off in the long run.

wyclif 7y ago
On the contrary, setbacks for globalization may very well leave us better off...after all, globalization is one of the main factors why we're experiencing this deadly pandemic now, and have vast swathes of our supply chain for essential pharmaceuticals and medical equipment farmed out to evil, duplicitous regimes like the Chinese state.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  Us = the world/humanity, not the USA. China's economic growth has lifted hundreds of millions from poverty, and it would not have happened without globalization.
  - wyclif 7y ago
    Eh, I was speaking of the world. China lied about the coronavirus right from the beginning, when having two weeks of lead time worldwide could have saved thousands of lives. They arrested, silenced, and probably killed the doctors who blew the whistle on the cover-up. These are facts, not conjecture.
    - danans 7y ago
      > our supply chain for essential pharmaceuticals and medical equipment farmed out to evil, duplicitous regimes like the Chinese state. There's a legitimate discussion to be had about medical equipment supply chains, but describing China this way does a huge disservice to that discussion. > They ... probably killed the doctors who blew the whistle on the cover-up. These are facts, not conjecture. That's literally an example of conjecture.
      - wyclif 7y ago
        The doctor who blew the whistle on the virus is dead now.
        danans 7y ago
        He's dead from the virus. Nobody murdered him.
        wyclif 7y ago
        He might very well still be alive if the Chinese government hadn't lied about and covered up the existence of the virus.
        danans 7y ago
        That's not killing. It's negligent and reprehensible, just like the trivialization of the disease's seriousness by the US president was negligent and reprehensible. There will be many unnecessary deaths as a result of both leaders' inaction. That doesn't make it murder on either of their parts. In the US at least, the dismantling of the public health systems in the name of efficiency is something that occurred in several previous administrations of both parties, backed by a public who supported those cuts in order to receive greater investment returns and lower taxes.
        onepointsixC 7y ago
        And what if POTUS was listening to the WHO experts who were parroting the lies of the CCP that human transmission wasn't happening, and then that even if it was an epidemic it wasn't a pandemic? Furthermore in what way was the US public health system dismantled? The US was best suited to take on Coronavirus because of its significant number of ICU beds and the number of ventilators compared to the rest of the West. The unfortunate fact is that CDC's tests failed and that left the US flat-footed when it was otherwise better positioned to tackle the crisis than most.
    - analyst74 7y ago
      Okay, some local Wuhan officials covered up the initial reports, and they have been held accountable and fired since. Saying China covered up the virus is like saying US is poisoning its people because some Flint officials were incompetent. Remember, China is a big country, and its political system is not a simple extension of an authoritarian leader like what media tend to portray.
  - aww_dang 7y ago
    >China's economic growth has lifted hundreds of millions from poverty Starting from the point of the great leap forward, yes there has been an improvement.
  - nsporillo 7y ago
    Lifted millions out of poverty at the expense of millions of middle class American jobs. I believe globalization largely did not end up in the best interest of most Americans because the transfer of technology and manufacturing did not result in a new American ally, but rather a strategic competitor. For over a decade now we've seen a rift in the interests of the common people and the elites in the United States, which is why we've seen the resurgence of populism.
- graeme 7y ago
  > after all, globalization is one of the main factors why we're experiencing this deadly pandemic now Not so. Pandemics travelled around the world before globalization. The black death, smallpox in the americas, syphllis. This just increases the speed.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    Speed is, however, an important factor in the severity of the impact.
    - graeme 7y ago
      In a given area, yes. But with globalization we also got forewarning, and information from those in earlier areas. Under a less intertwined system, this likely would have spread heavily within each area, and that area would have little info form outside on what to do. Every place a potential Wuhan.
  - arcadeparade 7y ago
    syphilis was also caused by globalization! i hope many travel restrictions become permanent. ban cruises, make tourism difficult and expensive, cut off travel totally between the hemispheres. nature is being completely destroyed by human activity, this is an opportunity to reverse it.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      If you're worried about the environment you can just add a carbon recapture tax to gas. Banning travel between large areas is ridiculous and wouldn't happen. Especially when a policy of quarantine during outbreaks would be equally effective with a vastly smaller cost.
      - Retric 7y ago
        Quarantine completely failed to prevent what was a highly localized disease globally in 2 months. We need to accept it’s simply ineffective across international borders unless draconian measures are applied before they seem required. We might get through this with 100,000 people dying globally or 100,000,000 it’s completely unknown at this point. But, should the second happen expect some significant changes to happen for years if not decades. PS: China’s case fatality rate broke 4%, though they likely undercounted cases by ~50% if not more.
- jcfrei 7y ago
  Very one-sided take on globalization. Unless every country would completely close their borders the virus would have eventually spread everywhere anyway. While medical equipment is temporarily out of stock in some countries, globalization also guarantees that eventually each country will have access to the necessary equipment. Imagine living without global trade and expecting Afghanistan to create an industry for ventilators in a couple of months.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    You're taking the other extreme and doing what you accuse the other person of doing: a one sided take. Backpedaling on globalization doesn't necessarily have to mean going back to no globalization. It just means now being away for the drawbacks and accounting for them. No every country doesn't need to produce their own medical equipment, but enough will that consider it important to do so and have the internal demand to support it and that will create supply-chain optionality for those that don't produce their own supplies. Every country that doesn't manufacturer their own equipment and supplies will be far better off when they have several countries they can source from.

wyclif 7y ago

On the contrary, setbacks for globalization may very well leave us better off...after all, globalization is one of the main factors why we're experiencing this deadly pandemic now, and have vast swathes of our supply chain for essential pharmaceuticals and medical equipment farmed out to evil, duplicitous regimes like the Chinese state.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
Us = the world/humanity, not the USA. China's economic growth has lifted hundreds of millions from poverty, and it would not have happened without globalization.
- wyclif 7y ago
  Eh, I was speaking of the world. China lied about the coronavirus right from the beginning, when having two weeks of lead time worldwide could have saved thousands of lives. They arrested, silenced, and probably killed the doctors who blew the whistle on the cover-up. These are facts, not conjecture.
  - danans 7y ago
    > our supply chain for essential pharmaceuticals and medical equipment farmed out to evil, duplicitous regimes like the Chinese state. There's a legitimate discussion to be had about medical equipment supply chains, but describing China this way does a huge disservice to that discussion. > They ... probably killed the doctors who blew the whistle on the cover-up. These are facts, not conjecture. That's literally an example of conjecture.
    - wyclif 7y ago
      The doctor who blew the whistle on the virus is dead now.
      - danans 7y ago
        He's dead from the virus. Nobody murdered him.
        wyclif 7y ago
        He might very well still be alive if the Chinese government hadn't lied about and covered up the existence of the virus.
        danans 7y ago
        That's not killing. It's negligent and reprehensible, just like the trivialization of the disease's seriousness by the US president was negligent and reprehensible. There will be many unnecessary deaths as a result of both leaders' inaction. That doesn't make it murder on either of their parts. In the US at least, the dismantling of the public health systems in the name of efficiency is something that occurred in several previous administrations of both parties, backed by a public who supported those cuts in order to receive greater investment returns and lower taxes.
        onepointsixC 7y ago
        And what if POTUS was listening to the WHO experts who were parroting the lies of the CCP that human transmission wasn't happening, and then that even if it was an epidemic it wasn't a pandemic? Furthermore in what way was the US public health system dismantled? The US was best suited to take on Coronavirus because of its significant number of ICU beds and the number of ventilators compared to the rest of the West. The unfortunate fact is that CDC's tests failed and that left the US flat-footed when it was otherwise better positioned to tackle the crisis than most.
  - analyst74 7y ago
    Okay, some local Wuhan officials covered up the initial reports, and they have been held accountable and fired since. Saying China covered up the virus is like saying US is poisoning its people because some Flint officials were incompetent. Remember, China is a big country, and its political system is not a simple extension of an authoritarian leader like what media tend to portray.
- aww_dang 7y ago
  >China's economic growth has lifted hundreds of millions from poverty Starting from the point of the great leap forward, yes there has been an improvement.
- nsporillo 7y ago
  Lifted millions out of poverty at the expense of millions of middle class American jobs. I believe globalization largely did not end up in the best interest of most Americans because the transfer of technology and manufacturing did not result in a new American ally, but rather a strategic competitor. For over a decade now we've seen a rift in the interests of the common people and the elites in the United States, which is why we've seen the resurgence of populism.
graeme 7y ago
> after all, globalization is one of the main factors why we're experiencing this deadly pandemic now Not so. Pandemics travelled around the world before globalization. The black death, smallpox in the americas, syphllis. This just increases the speed.
- jfk13 7y ago
  Speed is, however, an important factor in the severity of the impact.
  - graeme 7y ago
    In a given area, yes. But with globalization we also got forewarning, and information from those in earlier areas. Under a less intertwined system, this likely would have spread heavily within each area, and that area would have little info form outside on what to do. Every place a potential Wuhan.
- arcadeparade 7y ago
  syphilis was also caused by globalization! i hope many travel restrictions become permanent. ban cruises, make tourism difficult and expensive, cut off travel totally between the hemispheres. nature is being completely destroyed by human activity, this is an opportunity to reverse it.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    If you're worried about the environment you can just add a carbon recapture tax to gas. Banning travel between large areas is ridiculous and wouldn't happen. Especially when a policy of quarantine during outbreaks would be equally effective with a vastly smaller cost.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Quarantine completely failed to prevent what was a highly localized disease globally in 2 months. We need to accept it’s simply ineffective across international borders unless draconian measures are applied before they seem required. We might get through this with 100,000 people dying globally or 100,000,000 it’s completely unknown at this point. But, should the second happen expect some significant changes to happen for years if not decades. PS: China’s case fatality rate broke 4%, though they likely undercounted cases by ~50% if not more.
jcfrei 7y ago
Very one-sided take on globalization. Unless every country would completely close their borders the virus would have eventually spread everywhere anyway. While medical equipment is temporarily out of stock in some countries, globalization also guarantees that eventually each country will have access to the necessary equipment. Imagine living without global trade and expecting Afghanistan to create an industry for ventilators in a couple of months.
- malandrew 7y ago
  You're taking the other extreme and doing what you accuse the other person of doing: a one sided take. Backpedaling on globalization doesn't necessarily have to mean going back to no globalization. It just means now being away for the drawbacks and accounting for them. No every country doesn't need to produce their own medical equipment, but enough will that consider it important to do so and have the internal demand to support it and that will create supply-chain optionality for those that don't produce their own supplies. Every country that doesn't manufacturer their own equipment and supplies will be far better off when they have several countries they can source from.