5 ms·

Seems to me that firms like two sigma and jane street form some sense of "mystique" about them with regards to how elite their developers are. But once you get

Seems to me that firms like two sigma and jane street form some sense of "mystique" about them with regards to how elite their developers are. But once you get inside, most people are writing run of the mill software. Google has the same tactic, even paying below market rates to people willing to work their for the brand. Jane Street does pay very well, but still, most of their hiring is based off of prestigious colleges, less off of people who have written brilliant software. Not that they arent smart. I've just seen enough marketing, and met too many people working at these firms to give them much credit from an "elite software" perspective.

ironSkillet 7y ago
With so much money on the line, hedge funds and other trading firms focus a lot of effort on marketing and building up a perception that they truly are something special (at least those that take outside client money). Internally, things could be rather mundane, and even downright awful (from a technology perspective). Not commenting on Jane Street in particular, just the industry in general. Source: I've worked at a hedge fund and I've seen how the sausage is truly made. Many friends have told me similar stories about other firms.
- codingslave 7y ago
  Yeah worked in the industry as well, there's a story an older buddy used to tell when he worked at PIMCO in the 90s. Bit different than a quant fund but still applies. They hired a few Harvard Economics PhDs, who when looking at their macro economics material for institutional investors, claimed it was all wrong/didn't make sense. Bill Gross, the fund manager, told them it was to "get the money in the door from the fucking clients, we make gut bets on the market". Then fired the guy
  - fnord123 7y ago
    >Harvard Economics PhDs tbf, academia is its own racket.
    - codingslave 7y ago
      Yeah absolutely, the value of the Harvard PhD in this story is the name and nothing else.
- tianyicui 7y ago
  FWIW, Jane Street is not a hedge fund nor take outside client money. (Edit: I work at Jane Street.)
  - moneywoes 7y ago
    How would you best describe them
    - darawk 7y ago
      It's a prop trading firm. It's pretty important to distinguish between hedge funds that take public money (which are generally probably low quality, as the OP described) and prop trading firms that only or primarily trade their own money (Two Sigma, Renaissance, Jane Street, Jump trading, etc.). The latter deserve their mystique, because you only trade your own money if you are actually beating the market.
      - HereBePandas 7y ago
        Two Sigma and Renaissance (albeit not Medallion) primarily invest outside capital.
        darawk 7y ago
        Renaissance does take outside capital, but their primary business is Medallion. The outside capital is just a way to make a bit more by trading on their reputation. Two Sigma does generate a bit more revenue from outside capital than Renaissance, but it is my understanding that the heart of their business is still prop trading. But I don't know that for certain.
      - amelius 7y ago
        Can you comment on relevance for society? Do these companies generate a net positive, or do they only extract value? I.e. should I look for a job there only because of the money, or also because I can make a difference somehow in the bigger societal picture?
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  Is the sausage made in VBA?
  - downerending 7y ago
    In some shops, yes.
- hermitdev 7y ago
  Also having worked for a hedge fund, they're generally going to do their best to get you at the lowest salary possible. The overall benefits might be good, but they're going to do their best to low ball on the salary, "you'll make it up at bonus time!" Bullshit, You have to negotiate with hedge funds and be willing to walk away from a shit offer. I started at one a year out of college. Made 3x what I did as an intern. I was happy, at first. You can budget around a salary for rent, utilities, etc. You can't budget hoping for a bonus to make ends meet. Took me about 3 years to realize I was being paid half of my coworkers doing the same to lesser jobs as mine. Took me resigning with an offer in hand for twice what I was making before they upped their offer. I stayed for another 3 years before I got so fed up with the bullshit I actually left for a lower paying job (also less stress).
  - zarkov99 7y ago
    There is another, more sinister reason for low base: typically if you have a non compete and are forced into a one year garden leave, they can get way with paying you just the low base.
- fnord123 7y ago
  >Internally, things could be rather mundane Elite developers often make things mundane. No fires. No explosions. etc.
downerending 7y ago
Not JS, but I've worked for a couple of competitors and can confirm. There were a few truly brilliant individuals, but most of the staff was unexceptional, and the general level of the tech varied between standard corporate and outright appalling. It turns out that if you have enough money, you can simply keep throwing programmers into the firefight until something sort of works. They're truly too rich to fail. But, not an enjoyable ride if you actually love quality tech. (But, money! So much money!!)
UweSchmidt 7y ago
This kind of elite mystique was also summoned in many posts in the "Who's hiring" thread a few days ago. It's important not to be too discouraged by all of this when looking for a job. Yes, there are really good programmers, but how many can there be, realistically?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Chyzwar 7y ago
5 years ago, I had an interview with Jane Street. At that time I was interested in functional programming but not in OCaml. I think I had a fair chance but I bombed a technical interview. I do not have a "prestigious college" background and at that time I only had like a year of PHP experience. The interview format was also quite good. I am not sure if the software they are writing is "elite" but OCaml is raising the bar a bit higher.
throwaway720348 7y ago
The people who work at jane street are generally super talented, but they also mostly work on generic not-especially-interesting software problems. Source: Former jane street employee, also worked at two FAANGs before that, so I think I have some basis for comparison
chadash 7y ago
> "Google has the same tactic, even paying below market rates to people willing to work their for the brand." I've never heard anyone say that google pays below market. Perhaps there are those who pay more, but it's definitely above "the market"
- johntiger1 7y ago
  Below market rate compared to other Big Ns. But Google is willing to play ball if you can get other offers/get a good recruiter
nailer 7y ago
I've worked for Google and been rejected by Jane St and come off with a much better impression of Jane St. Google has some bright stars, but Jane St has a higher portion of them.

ironSkillet 7y ago

With so much money on the line, hedge funds and other trading firms focus a lot of effort on marketing and building up a perception that they truly are something special (at least those that take outside client money). Internally, things could be rather mundane, and even downright awful (from a technology perspective). Not commenting on Jane Street in particular, just the industry in general. Source: I've worked at a hedge fund and I've seen how the sausage is truly made. Many friends have told me similar stories about other firms.

codingslave 7y ago
Yeah worked in the industry as well, there's a story an older buddy used to tell when he worked at PIMCO in the 90s. Bit different than a quant fund but still applies. They hired a few Harvard Economics PhDs, who when looking at their macro economics material for institutional investors, claimed it was all wrong/didn't make sense. Bill Gross, the fund manager, told them it was to "get the money in the door from the fucking clients, we make gut bets on the market". Then fired the guy
- fnord123 7y ago
  >Harvard Economics PhDs tbf, academia is its own racket.
  - codingslave 7y ago
    Yeah absolutely, the value of the Harvard PhD in this story is the name and nothing else.
tianyicui 7y ago
FWIW, Jane Street is not a hedge fund nor take outside client money. (Edit: I work at Jane Street.)
- moneywoes 7y ago
  How would you best describe them
  - darawk 7y ago
    It's a prop trading firm. It's pretty important to distinguish between hedge funds that take public money (which are generally probably low quality, as the OP described) and prop trading firms that only or primarily trade their own money (Two Sigma, Renaissance, Jane Street, Jump trading, etc.). The latter deserve their mystique, because you only trade your own money if you are actually beating the market.
    - HereBePandas 7y ago
      Two Sigma and Renaissance (albeit not Medallion) primarily invest outside capital.
      - darawk 7y ago
        Renaissance does take outside capital, but their primary business is Medallion. The outside capital is just a way to make a bit more by trading on their reputation. Two Sigma does generate a bit more revenue from outside capital than Renaissance, but it is my understanding that the heart of their business is still prop trading. But I don't know that for certain.
    - amelius 7y ago
      Can you comment on relevance for society? Do these companies generate a net positive, or do they only extract value? I.e. should I look for a job there only because of the money, or also because I can make a difference somehow in the bigger societal picture?
quickthrower2 7y ago
Is the sausage made in VBA?
- downerending 7y ago
  In some shops, yes.
hermitdev 7y ago
Also having worked for a hedge fund, they're generally going to do their best to get you at the lowest salary possible. The overall benefits might be good, but they're going to do their best to low ball on the salary, "you'll make it up at bonus time!" Bullshit, You have to negotiate with hedge funds and be willing to walk away from a shit offer. I started at one a year out of college. Made 3x what I did as an intern. I was happy, at first. You can budget around a salary for rent, utilities, etc. You can't budget hoping for a bonus to make ends meet. Took me about 3 years to realize I was being paid half of my coworkers doing the same to lesser jobs as mine. Took me resigning with an offer in hand for twice what I was making before they upped their offer. I stayed for another 3 years before I got so fed up with the bullshit I actually left for a lower paying job (also less stress).
- zarkov99 7y ago
  There is another, more sinister reason for low base: typically if you have a non compete and are forced into a one year garden leave, they can get way with paying you just the low base.
fnord123 7y ago
>Internally, things could be rather mundane Elite developers often make things mundane. No fires. No explosions. etc.

downerending 7y ago

Not JS, but I've worked for a couple of competitors and can confirm. There were a few truly brilliant individuals, but most of the staff was unexceptional, and the general level of the tech varied between standard corporate and outright appalling. It turns out that if you have enough money, you can simply keep throwing programmers into the firefight until something sort of works. They're truly too rich to fail. But, not an enjoyable ride if you actually love quality tech. (But, money! So much money!!)

UweSchmidt 7y ago

This kind of elite mystique was also summoned in many posts in the "Who's hiring" thread a few days ago. It's important not to be too discouraged by all of this when looking for a job. Yes, there are really good programmers, but how many can there be, realistically?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Chyzwar 7y ago

5 years ago, I had an interview with Jane Street. At that time I was interested in functional programming but not in OCaml. I think I had a fair chance but I bombed a technical interview. I do not have a "prestigious college" background and at that time I only had like a year of PHP experience. The interview format was also quite good. I am not sure if the software they are writing is "elite" but OCaml is raising the bar a bit higher.

throwaway720348 7y ago

The people who work at jane street are generally super talented, but they also mostly work on generic not-especially-interesting software problems. Source: Former jane street employee, also worked at two FAANGs before that, so I think I have some basis for comparison

chadash 7y ago

> "Google has the same tactic, even paying below market rates to people willing to work their for the brand." I've never heard anyone say that google pays below market. Perhaps there are those who pay more, but it's definitely above "the market"

johntiger1 7y ago
Below market rate compared to other Big Ns. But Google is willing to play ball if you can get other offers/get a good recruiter

nailer 7y ago

I've worked for Google and been rejected by Jane St and come off with a much better impression of Jane St. Google has some bright stars, but Jane St has a higher portion of them.