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The source clarifies that this only applies to websites run within the Safari browser.[1] PWAs added to the home screen aren't affected. > As mentioned, the se

by wubin 7y ago

The source clarifies that this only applies to websites run within the Safari browser.[1] PWAs added to the home screen aren't affected. > As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on "after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site." That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications. [1] https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocking-and-more/#:~:text=A%20Note%20On%20Web%20Applications%20Added%20to%20the%20Home%20Screen https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki...

osrec 7y ago
That's a relief. We've built our business on our PWA, which also has an offline mode. It would be annoying if we had to adjust it for (yet another) Safari quirk.
- kstrauser 7y ago
  Except that by "Safari quirk" you mean "the way that all common browsers are heading". Safari is the first here. Firefox is certain to be right behind them. Google, probably not, but I bet Edge does the same thing before too long.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    I hope not. Apple has had substandard support for modern web technologies in Safari for a long time, to the point where it is often referred to in the industry as the new IE. We've had enough of browsers breaking things that used to work in the name of false progress. Time for the grown-ups to take a careful look and see this for what it is.
    - philistine 7y ago
      Here’s my take on what it is: the most battery-efficient browser. I’ll take 30 more minutes on my laptop before some nebulous modern web standard.
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        How does something like allowing data to be stored by a web app that isn't even being used for more than a week cause your laptop to lose 30 minutes of battery life?
        kevsim 7y ago
        It doesn't as the two have no connections whatsoever. The point was that Safari is the most battery efficient browser overall on MacOS, so they're willing to put up with sub-standard support for web standards if their battery lasts longer.
        Silhouette 7y ago
        I'm sure it will be a great comfort of them to not be able to use their computer for useful things for a bit longer before they have to plug it in. :-)
      - ss3000 7y ago
        Would you also take gradually losing access to other modern web standards apps rely on as time goes on until the only realistic option we have for building, deploying, and consuming apps are the walled gardens controlled by 2 corporations who have arbitrary rules on who can and can't participate, freely stifling innovation/competition as their interests dictate, and taking a more and more outrageous cut of all economic activity on the platform? That's where this is going. > "first they came for localStorage and I did nothing"
    - kstrauser 7y ago
      As an end user, I love it. I regret that it's making some things harder for legitimate developers, but love that it's making it harder for the assholes who keep trying to ruin the web.
  - joeblau 7y ago
    Google is planning on implementing part of this in 2022[1]. Not sure what they are going to do about the browser storage though. [1] - https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/14/21064698/google-third-party-cookies-chrome-two-years-privacy-safari-firefox https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/14/21064698/google-third-par...
    - brlewis 7y ago
      That article mentions third party cookies. Nothing about nerfing localStorage.
gridlockd 7y ago
> "Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer." What exactly does that mean? So you use the app for seven (perhaps non-consecutive) days, and now all third parties that haven't been, uh, interacted with, get their data wiped - but not the the first party, because that has been interacted with, by virtue of the PWA being launched in the first place? I guess that solves the problem?
pcdoodle 7y ago
Thank you for the clarification.
untog 7y ago
I don't think that's actually what it clarifies. Or at the very least it's very confusing. > have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. This makes it sound very much like homescreen apps will have their data wiped after 7 days of non-use. > We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. And this does not. It's a very confusing word salad.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  Yes, it's confusing. It's not 7 days of non-use, it's seven days of application use without visiting the site. Safari is one application, the homescreen app is a separate application. Presumably, all the alt browsers or WebView apps are separate applications as well. Since you can't use a homescreen app without visiting the site, the 7 days of not visiting the site can't happen.
  - untog 7y ago
    Ah OK that makes sense. They should really copy and paste what you just said into their post!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - emmelaich 7y ago
    But .. if you don't use Safari for seven days, what happens?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - eyelidlessness 7y ago
      From their description, nothing. Seven days of use without visiting triggers deletion. Failing to satisfy either of those conditions (either by disuse of Safari, or by visiting the site within seven days) doesn't.
btown 7y ago
If there is, as they say, a dedicated counter on those home screen applications, what is the threshold? Will home page PWA apps not used often (say, for infrequent uses like travel) have first party data deleted after the icon isn’t clicked for some time? This is highly unclear and confusing.
- eyelidlessness 7y ago
  The deletion occurs if you use the app for seven days and don't visit the site. Pinned sites cannot meet those criteria and will not trigger deletion.
  - f0rfun 7y ago
    How about pinned sites that have not been accessed for > 7 days? I neither use the app nor visited the site for e.g. 2 weeks.. what will happen to e data for e pinned site? Apple is being vague here.
    - eyelidlessness 7y ago
      One of the criteria for deletion is accessing the app for 7 days. If you don't access the app for 7 days, it doesn't meet the criteria and won't trigger deletion. It's poorly worded, but it's not vague.
iameli 7y ago
"Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer." But said timer... does nothing? Why does it exist?
- gridlockd 7y ago
  I suppose it would still affect any sites you visit from within the PWA, for example through an iframe. Also, it's simpler to have a timer that effectively does nothing than having extra logic to suppress it.
- eyelidlessness 7y ago
  Presumably because WebView is available to other applications besides Safari and pinned sites, and they want to offer the same privacy guarantees to users for WebViews in apps as for Safari. Adding an exception for pinned apps is unnecessary because it's impossible to meet the criteria for deletion.
pier25 7y ago
Ok but OTOH Apple is not helping PWAs by hiding the "Add to home screen" in submenus and not having an official API to show a banner like Chrome has on Android. Edit: Also what about desktop?
- enos_feedler 7y ago
  Not having a way for web apps to communicate a call to action dramatically reduces engagement with this feature, no doubt. The only way I can see this from Apple's side is they see it as a feature for Safari users, not from the platform side for the web. From Apple's standpoint, when you put yourself on the user's homescreen, that is a deep connection between that app and the user. Apple spends billions in each finding new ways to enhance and enrich that connection. IMO, their _belief_ is that building a native app to take advantage of all these rich and engaging ways is the best way to build deep connections with your (developer's) users. Being an icon on the user's home screen is where deep connection begins, not ends. You might add a today widget, you might want to send notifications, you might want to add AR experiences. You might want a Tablet experience and allow hand off between these devices. Apple is invested in becoming a deep level of importance in a user's life. They want to share as large of surface area with 3rd party developers as they can. It would be irresponsible to promote an API that made developers have to start from scratch when they decide they want to go deeper.
modeless 7y ago
As the article has been updated to say, "installing" a PWA to the home screen is an optional step that many people prefer not to do in favor of bookmarks or the address bar or the new tab page or whatever. But it's no surprise that Apple would want to impose an "install" step on the web to prevent it from looking more attractive than the App Store.
- madeofpalk 7y ago
  > But it's no surprise that Apple would want to impose an "install" step on the web The FUD here is getting out of control. "PWAs", that Google pioneered, are all about having an ‘install step’ to put the "web apps" on your home screen. https://web.dev/customize-install/ https://web.dev/customize-install/
  - modeless 7y ago
    No, they are about safely adding capabilities to the web that native apps have. Home screen icons are only one of those capabilities, and not the most important.
    - enos_feedler 7y ago
      PWA is in fact a corporate born, bred and sponsored definition created to push and promote an _arbitrary_ set of Chrome features. It was an attempt to build momentum towards a vision for the web where browsers can run "open" apps. Unfortunately visions don't die, and thus the term lives on. Sigh.
- enos_feedler 7y ago
  It is no surprise because the whole point of keeping storage around is because you intend to come back. Pinning a website to a homescreen is clear intent. Having a tab or a bookmark does not make that clear. I have tabs and bookmarks open that I haven't visited in years. Thankfully Safari now kills tabs that haven't been touched within X time frame. "impose" is the wrong word. I think you mean they are "trying to understand you and do the best thing"
the_gipsy 7y ago
Good luck getting your app added to the home screen. It only works through safari, so chrome or firefox users are ruled out, and it's hidden under some "bookmark" or "share" menu that is too difficult to discover.
- pfundstein 7y ago
  Safari is the only browser on iOS because Firefox and Chrome are forced to use the Safari engine due to "security reasons".
  - 43920 7y ago
    The issue is that if you're using the Firefox or Chrome apps (which are the same rendering engine underneath), they aren't allowed to implement the "add to home screen" action in their UI.

by wubin 7y ago

osrec 7y ago

That's a relief. We've built our business on our PWA, which also has an offline mode. It would be annoying if we had to adjust it for (yet another) Safari quirk.

kstrauser 7y ago
Except that by "Safari quirk" you mean "the way that all common browsers are heading". Safari is the first here. Firefox is certain to be right behind them. Google, probably not, but I bet Edge does the same thing before too long.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  I hope not. Apple has had substandard support for modern web technologies in Safari for a long time, to the point where it is often referred to in the industry as the new IE. We've had enough of browsers breaking things that used to work in the name of false progress. Time for the grown-ups to take a careful look and see this for what it is.
  - philistine 7y ago
    Here’s my take on what it is: the most battery-efficient browser. I’ll take 30 more minutes on my laptop before some nebulous modern web standard.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      How does something like allowing data to be stored by a web app that isn't even being used for more than a week cause your laptop to lose 30 minutes of battery life?
      - kevsim 7y ago
        It doesn't as the two have no connections whatsoever. The point was that Safari is the most battery efficient browser overall on MacOS, so they're willing to put up with sub-standard support for web standards if their battery lasts longer.
        Silhouette 7y ago
        I'm sure it will be a great comfort of them to not be able to use their computer for useful things for a bit longer before they have to plug it in. :-)
    - ss3000 7y ago
      Would you also take gradually losing access to other modern web standards apps rely on as time goes on until the only realistic option we have for building, deploying, and consuming apps are the walled gardens controlled by 2 corporations who have arbitrary rules on who can and can't participate, freely stifling innovation/competition as their interests dictate, and taking a more and more outrageous cut of all economic activity on the platform? That's where this is going. > "first they came for localStorage and I did nothing"
  - kstrauser 7y ago
    As an end user, I love it. I regret that it's making some things harder for legitimate developers, but love that it's making it harder for the assholes who keep trying to ruin the web.
- joeblau 7y ago
  Google is planning on implementing part of this in 2022[1]. Not sure what they are going to do about the browser storage though. [1] - https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/14/21064698/google-third-party-cookies-chrome-two-years-privacy-safari-firefox https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/14/21064698/google-third-par...
  - brlewis 7y ago
    That article mentions third party cookies. Nothing about nerfing localStorage.

gridlockd 7y ago

> "Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer." What exactly does that mean? So you use the app for seven (perhaps non-consecutive) days, and now all third parties that haven't been, uh, interacted with, get their data wiped - but not the the first party, because that has been interacted with, by virtue of the PWA being launched in the first place? I guess that solves the problem?

pcdoodle 7y ago

Thank you for the clarification.

untog 7y ago

I don't think that's actually what it clarifies. Or at the very least it's very confusing. > have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. This makes it sound very much like homescreen apps will have their data wiped after 7 days of non-use. > We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. And this does not. It's a very confusing word salad.

gridlockd 7y ago
Yes, it's confusing. It's not 7 days of non-use, it's seven days of application use without visiting the site. Safari is one application, the homescreen app is a separate application. Presumably, all the alt browsers or WebView apps are separate applications as well. Since you can't use a homescreen app without visiting the site, the 7 days of not visiting the site can't happen.
- untog 7y ago
  Ah OK that makes sense. They should really copy and paste what you just said into their post!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- emmelaich 7y ago
  But .. if you don't use Safari for seven days, what happens?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - eyelidlessness 7y ago
    From their description, nothing. Seven days of use without visiting triggers deletion. Failing to satisfy either of those conditions (either by disuse of Safari, or by visiting the site within seven days) doesn't.

btown 7y ago

If there is, as they say, a dedicated counter on those home screen applications, what is the threshold? Will home page PWA apps not used often (say, for infrequent uses like travel) have first party data deleted after the icon isn’t clicked for some time? This is highly unclear and confusing.

eyelidlessness 7y ago
The deletion occurs if you use the app for seven days and don't visit the site. Pinned sites cannot meet those criteria and will not trigger deletion.
- f0rfun 7y ago
  How about pinned sites that have not been accessed for > 7 days? I neither use the app nor visited the site for e.g. 2 weeks.. what will happen to e data for e pinned site? Apple is being vague here.
  - eyelidlessness 7y ago
    One of the criteria for deletion is accessing the app for 7 days. If you don't access the app for 7 days, it doesn't meet the criteria and won't trigger deletion. It's poorly worded, but it's not vague.

iameli 7y ago

"Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer." But said timer... does nothing? Why does it exist?

gridlockd 7y ago
I suppose it would still affect any sites you visit from within the PWA, for example through an iframe. Also, it's simpler to have a timer that effectively does nothing than having extra logic to suppress it.
eyelidlessness 7y ago
Presumably because WebView is available to other applications besides Safari and pinned sites, and they want to offer the same privacy guarantees to users for WebViews in apps as for Safari. Adding an exception for pinned apps is unnecessary because it's impossible to meet the criteria for deletion.

pier25 7y ago

Ok but OTOH Apple is not helping PWAs by hiding the "Add to home screen" in submenus and not having an official API to show a banner like Chrome has on Android. Edit: Also what about desktop?

enos_feedler 7y ago
Not having a way for web apps to communicate a call to action dramatically reduces engagement with this feature, no doubt. The only way I can see this from Apple's side is they see it as a feature for Safari users, not from the platform side for the web. From Apple's standpoint, when you put yourself on the user's homescreen, that is a deep connection between that app and the user. Apple spends billions in each finding new ways to enhance and enrich that connection. IMO, their _belief_ is that building a native app to take advantage of all these rich and engaging ways is the best way to build deep connections with your (developer's) users. Being an icon on the user's home screen is where deep connection begins, not ends. You might add a today widget, you might want to send notifications, you might want to add AR experiences. You might want a Tablet experience and allow hand off between these devices. Apple is invested in becoming a deep level of importance in a user's life. They want to share as large of surface area with 3rd party developers as they can. It would be irresponsible to promote an API that made developers have to start from scratch when they decide they want to go deeper.

modeless 7y ago

As the article has been updated to say, "installing" a PWA to the home screen is an optional step that many people prefer not to do in favor of bookmarks or the address bar or the new tab page or whatever. But it's no surprise that Apple would want to impose an "install" step on the web to prevent it from looking more attractive than the App Store.

madeofpalk 7y ago
> But it's no surprise that Apple would want to impose an "install" step on the web The FUD here is getting out of control. "PWAs", that Google pioneered, are all about having an ‘install step’ to put the "web apps" on your home screen. https://web.dev/customize-install/ https://web.dev/customize-install/
- modeless 7y ago
  No, they are about safely adding capabilities to the web that native apps have. Home screen icons are only one of those capabilities, and not the most important.
  - enos_feedler 7y ago
    PWA is in fact a corporate born, bred and sponsored definition created to push and promote an _arbitrary_ set of Chrome features. It was an attempt to build momentum towards a vision for the web where browsers can run "open" apps. Unfortunately visions don't die, and thus the term lives on. Sigh.
enos_feedler 7y ago
It is no surprise because the whole point of keeping storage around is because you intend to come back. Pinning a website to a homescreen is clear intent. Having a tab or a bookmark does not make that clear. I have tabs and bookmarks open that I haven't visited in years. Thankfully Safari now kills tabs that haven't been touched within X time frame. "impose" is the wrong word. I think you mean they are "trying to understand you and do the best thing"

the_gipsy 7y ago

Good luck getting your app added to the home screen. It only works through safari, so chrome or firefox users are ruled out, and it's hidden under some "bookmark" or "share" menu that is too difficult to discover.

pfundstein 7y ago
Safari is the only browser on iOS because Firefox and Chrome are forced to use the Safari engine due to "security reasons".
- 43920 7y ago
  The issue is that if you're using the Firefox or Chrome apps (which are the same rendering engine underneath), they aren't allowed to implement the "add to home screen" action in their UI.