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Sounds like the solution is to add the app to your home screen. I don't think its reasonable for a browser to let any site I ever interact with to store data on

Sounds like the solution is to add the app to your home screen. I don't think its reasonable for a browser to let any site I ever interact with to store data on my device indefinitely

soapdog 7y ago
Even web apps that you add to your home screen are subjected to this.
- redindian75 7y ago
  "Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use."[1] From WebKit: [1] https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocking-and-more/ https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki... A Note On Web Applications Added to the Home Screen As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site.” That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications.
  - KarlKemp 7y ago
    Of not, this also contradicts the article‘s scenario of going on vacation. Only days with some browser use are counted.
  - seanwilson 7y ago
    > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. Can anyone explain this with an example? So web apps added to the home screen will have their storage wiped under some scenarios? If not, what does "have their own counter" mean? How are web applications added to the home screen not part of Safari in a way that's different from a regular URL you might visit?
    - ardy42 7y ago
      > Can anyone explain this with an example? Note this is totally based on my reading of the GP: >> As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site.” I'm understanding this to mean: you access Site A and it stores data to your local storage on day 0. Then you use Safari for Sites B, C, and D, but not A for the next 7 days. Since Safari has been used for 7 days without using Site A, Site A's data is cleared. >> Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. I'm understanding this to mean there's no distinction between Safari and Site A anymore. Since you can't use Site A for 7 days without using Site A, Site A's data is never cleared. It would make much more sense for them to just disable the counter in this case, or at least just explain it that way. It would be less confusing.
      - jsmith45 7y ago
        Home screen installed PWAs are treated as a separate web browser. So installed PWA's do have automatic deletion, but that basically only applies to third party content (like advertiser tracking cookies, or content from other sites you show inside an iframe), since the number of days used since last interaction counter will stay at zero for the main site.
    - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
      If you add the Twitter PWA to the homescreen and don’t use it for seven days, it’s storage will be reset and you’ll have to log in again. I think WebKit’s handling of local storage is the prime example of how optimizing for privacy to the exclusion of every other consideration is user-hostile
      - CodesInChaos 7y ago
        I don't read it like that. It's not about 7 days real time, it's about 7 days on which you use the app. Since you can use Safari without visiting the PWA's domain, this feature can delete the data of a PWA which runs in Safari. Since you can't use a homescreened PWA without it visiting the associated domain, the data saved by the PWA's domain will never be deleted for homescreened applications. But data associated saved by other domains can still get deleted if you use the application for 7 days without it opening that domain.
  - veeti 7y ago
    How is this any better?? I don't expect apps I install - native or PWA - to clear their data if I don't use them every 7 days. That's crazy!
    - slipheen 7y ago
      I'm not sure I understand how it is "installed" if you aren't adding it to your homescreen? Isn't that just visiting a webpage?
      - soapdog 7y ago
        the service worker is installed regardless if you add it to the home screen.
  - iameli 7y ago
    > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. [...] We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. I don't get it. Which of these statements is correct? 1. "Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Of course, that counter doesn't do anything. It just sits there, counting, for no particular reason. We just love counting things!" 2. "We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. Except, of course, if they don't use the web application for seven days. In that case, that data will be _extremely_ deleted! Really just wiped from the face of the earth."
    - kyralis 7y ago
      Neither. The counter is per days of application use, so (2) is false. Not using the app does not affect the counter. The counter is also per domain, and so while the first party domain for the PWA (which is likely to, of course, be loaded on each PWA launch) is effectively meaningless, if you visit other domains from within the PWA they will be subject to the counter independently.
      - iameli 7y ago
        Okay, that makes sense - counter is third-party domains only. Thanks!
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        So let's say I launch the zombocom app, then click a link inside the app for "zombo updates" that goes to their twitter. Then the next few times I switch to the app, I don't launch it from scratch, I just look at the twitter. Then I've gone seven days inside the zombocom app without touching their actual domain. Does everything except the twitter cookies get deleted?
        iameli 7y ago
        I believe the first-party primary domain of the app will never have its data wiped — though the article could certainly be clearer on the point. What would be cleared in that case would be any other domains — if there's also a "Visit Zombo Facebook" link in there, and you only looked at Twitter for a week, the Facebook cookies would be wiped.
  - untog 7y ago
    > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. This is a baffling word salad. So they are tracking days of use of home screen web apps... which sounds like it means that if you do not use the app for seven days the cache will be deleted... but they don't expect a web app to have its data deleted. What?
    - iameli 7y ago
      The only coherent interpretation I can think of is that accessing example.com in a home screen app doesn't reset the timer for example.com in Safari. And vice versa. But it's still really unclear whether that implies that home screen apps get their data wiped or not.
    - jsmith45 7y ago
      Home screen installed PWAs are treated as a separate web browser. For all web browsers, content is only deleted after 7 days in which you use that browser. So if you shut for phone off for a month, and then turn it on, and open safari, that whole month only counts as one day, since you did not use the safari browser during that month. The same rules apply to PWAs installed to the home screen, which are being treated as seperate browsers. Of course, the count of days of use of this "browser" without using the main site will always remain zero. But for third party cookies, or third party content from an iframe that uses local storage, those would get nuked if the home screen installed PWA is used on 7 different days without interacting with those domains.
dwnvoted2hell 7y ago
I don't understand why you wouldn't rely on some other normal local storage for an app, except to be super lazy making cross device apps with some platform. I think that's what all the screaming is about. Low budget cross compatible apps will suffer.
nikkwong 7y ago
It depends on the context.. For example, I use an invoicing web app that stores previously created invoices indefinitely in localStorage. This gives me the benefit of not having to manage login credentials and keeping everything client-side. It also gives the site's developers the benefit of not having to manage user accounts or server side state. Without being able to use localStorage as a long term store, I'll have to register for an account, have to deal with them handling my data, etc. Losing the functionality of localStorage as a long term store has disadvantages.
- drkstr 7y ago
  Maybe it is because I can't seem to hold onto a device for more than a year or two before I lose it somewhere, but the idea of having all my important invoice data on a single device sounds scary to me. I would hope that localStorage is included in in iCloud backups.

Sounds like the solution is to add the app to your home screen. I don't think its reasonable for a browser to let any site I ever interact with to store data on my device indefinitely

soapdog 7y ago

Even web apps that you add to your home screen are subjected to this.

redindian75 7y ago
"Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use."[1] From WebKit: [1] https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocking-and-more/ https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki... A Note On Web Applications Added to the Home Screen As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site.” That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications.
- KarlKemp 7y ago
  Of not, this also contradicts the article‘s scenario of going on vacation. Only days with some browser use are counted.
- seanwilson 7y ago
  > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. Can anyone explain this with an example? So web apps added to the home screen will have their storage wiped under some scenarios? If not, what does "have their own counter" mean? How are web applications added to the home screen not part of Safari in a way that's different from a regular URL you might visit?
  - ardy42 7y ago
    > Can anyone explain this with an example? Note this is totally based on my reading of the GP: >> As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site.” I'm understanding this to mean: you access Site A and it stores data to your local storage on day 0. Then you use Safari for Sites B, C, and D, but not A for the next 7 days. Since Safari has been used for 7 days without using Site A, Site A's data is cleared. >> Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. I'm understanding this to mean there's no distinction between Safari and Site A anymore. Since you can't use Site A for 7 days without using Site A, Site A's data is never cleared. It would make much more sense for them to just disable the counter in this case, or at least just explain it that way. It would be less confusing.
    - jsmith45 7y ago
      Home screen installed PWAs are treated as a separate web browser. So installed PWA's do have automatic deletion, but that basically only applies to third party content (like advertiser tracking cookies, or content from other sites you show inside an iframe), since the number of days used since last interaction counter will stay at zero for the main site.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
    If you add the Twitter PWA to the homescreen and don’t use it for seven days, it’s storage will be reset and you’ll have to log in again. I think WebKit’s handling of local storage is the prime example of how optimizing for privacy to the exclusion of every other consideration is user-hostile
    - CodesInChaos 7y ago
      I don't read it like that. It's not about 7 days real time, it's about 7 days on which you use the app. Since you can use Safari without visiting the PWA's domain, this feature can delete the data of a PWA which runs in Safari. Since you can't use a homescreened PWA without it visiting the associated domain, the data saved by the PWA's domain will never be deleted for homescreened applications. But data associated saved by other domains can still get deleted if you use the application for 7 days without it opening that domain.
- veeti 7y ago
  How is this any better?? I don't expect apps I install - native or PWA - to clear their data if I don't use them every 7 days. That's crazy!
  - slipheen 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand how it is "installed" if you aren't adding it to your homescreen? Isn't that just visiting a webpage?
    - soapdog 7y ago
      the service worker is installed regardless if you add it to the home screen.
- iameli 7y ago
  > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. [...] We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. I don't get it. Which of these statements is correct? 1. "Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Of course, that counter doesn't do anything. It just sits there, counting, for no particular reason. We just love counting things!" 2. "We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. Except, of course, if they don't use the web application for seven days. In that case, that data will be _extremely_ deleted! Really just wiped from the face of the earth."
  - kyralis 7y ago
    Neither. The counter is per days of application use, so (2) is false. Not using the app does not affect the counter. The counter is also per domain, and so while the first party domain for the PWA (which is likely to, of course, be loaded on each PWA launch) is effectively meaningless, if you visit other domains from within the PWA they will be subject to the counter independently.
    - iameli 7y ago
      Okay, that makes sense - counter is third-party domains only. Thanks!
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      So let's say I launch the zombocom app, then click a link inside the app for "zombo updates" that goes to their twitter. Then the next few times I switch to the app, I don't launch it from scratch, I just look at the twitter. Then I've gone seven days inside the zombocom app without touching their actual domain. Does everything except the twitter cookies get deleted?
      - iameli 7y ago
        I believe the first-party primary domain of the app will never have its data wiped — though the article could certainly be clearer on the point. What would be cleared in that case would be any other domains — if there's also a "Visit Zombo Facebook" link in there, and you only looked at Twitter for a week, the Facebook cookies would be wiped.
- untog 7y ago
  > Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. This is a baffling word salad. So they are tracking days of use of home screen web apps... which sounds like it means that if you do not use the app for seven days the cache will be deleted... but they don't expect a web app to have its data deleted. What?
  - iameli 7y ago
    The only coherent interpretation I can think of is that accessing example.com in a home screen app doesn't reset the timer for example.com in Safari. And vice versa. But it's still really unclear whether that implies that home screen apps get their data wiped or not.
  - jsmith45 7y ago
    Home screen installed PWAs are treated as a separate web browser. For all web browsers, content is only deleted after 7 days in which you use that browser. So if you shut for phone off for a month, and then turn it on, and open safari, that whole month only counts as one day, since you did not use the safari browser during that month. The same rules apply to PWAs installed to the home screen, which are being treated as seperate browsers. Of course, the count of days of use of this "browser" without using the main site will always remain zero. But for third party cookies, or third party content from an iframe that uses local storage, those would get nuked if the home screen installed PWA is used on 7 different days without interacting with those domains.

dwnvoted2hell 7y ago

I don't understand why you wouldn't rely on some other normal local storage for an app, except to be super lazy making cross device apps with some platform. I think that's what all the screaming is about. Low budget cross compatible apps will suffer.

nikkwong 7y ago

It depends on the context.. For example, I use an invoicing web app that stores previously created invoices indefinitely in localStorage. This gives me the benefit of not having to manage login credentials and keeping everything client-side. It also gives the site's developers the benefit of not having to manage user accounts or server side state. Without being able to use localStorage as a long term store, I'll have to register for an account, have to deal with them handling my data, etc. Losing the functionality of localStorage as a long term store has disadvantages.

drkstr 7y ago
Maybe it is because I can't seem to hold onto a device for more than a year or two before I lose it somewhere, but the idea of having all my important invoice data on a single device sounds scary to me. I would hope that localStorage is included in in iCloud backups.