7 ms·

“The court system is just going to get flooded with a million of these disputes between tenants and landlords,” I'm absolutely not a big fan of collectivism, b

“The court system is just going to get flooded with a million of these disputes between tenants and landlords,” I'm absolutely not a big fan of collectivism, but sometimes, individualism just doesn't work. Sometimes, you have to step in and solve problems collectively. No, it won't be fair, yes it will be one-size-fits-all, no you can't please everyone. Suck it up, buttercup. Whether you like it or not, we're in this current shit together, all of us.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
What is the collective resolution? I'm assuming it's either everyone gets free rent, or nobody does, and I'm not sure which is being implied here.
- swiley 7y ago
  I'm able to pay my rent. If me paying mine means the newly unemployed people don't have to during this thing then I would prefer the situation that's unfair toward me. We really kick the lowest people into the dirt here and the place we do it the most is housing. It makes our economy extremely unstable, not to mention it's pretty unpleasant to know that you're only a couple mistakes away from being in a similar situation and to be around a bunch of people who feel the same way. It doesn't need to be like this, the US is mostly trees and all but the most dense places have lots of room for growth. We've prevented it and now it's time to pay for our mistakes.
  - bsanr 7y ago
    Americans live in relatively huge houses, with tons of stuff that we don't need, use, or even get any sentimental value out of. I'm not saying we need to transform into Japan - it was truly nice to be able to visit wealthier family and their big houses with their "fk you" foyers and finished basements bigger than any apartment I've ever lived in - but the average American nuclear family does not need more then 2000 square feet (if that), day-to-day. Once you eliminate speculation on grandiose properties - which in turn drives up the prices of your given McMansion or SF bungalow - maybe you can figure out a way to provide everyone with decent, dignified housing that's appropriate for their family size and lifestyle. People like to say that the economy isn't zero sum, nosiree, but it's mighty suspicious how much homelessness rises in cities where apartments go for 7 figures cash, or $3k+ a month in rent.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
      This moral grandstanding is not helpful. If you want to talk to about the endemic problems of American housing I'm happy to, after this pandemic has passed. Until then, we all should be focused on solving the immediate problems and helping each other. Pointing fingers at the broken bits and complaining about them distracts everyone.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
HammockTester 7y ago
As long as you're the one happily shelling out you can reasonably promote that idea.
- vkou 7y ago
  What does this mean in this context? Are we spilling ink for the sake of the owners of these retail spaces? Do you think they are going to be any better off if these retailers just stop paying rent, and go out of business, instead? Instead of grousing, the landlords should be petitioning for their mortgage payments to be suspended for this time period.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - refurb 7y ago
    What does this mean in this context? It means it's easy to suggest a solution that costs you nothing personally.
    - vkou 7y ago
      Then your response is a non-sequitor - because your criticism can be levied against both the person endorsing that solution, and the person endorsing the status quo.
    - henrikschroder 7y ago
      Oh, we are all going to pay for this crisis, one way of the other. If burning everything to the ground because pausing the economy is somehow unimaginable, then a lot more people will be unemployed, a lot more businesses will go bankrupt, and to restart the economy a couple of months from now, a lot of tax money will have been spent in unemployment benefits, food stamps, and various stimulus packages and bailouts. That's my tax money being spent, given that I'm keeping my job and my salary. If a pause means it takes less tax money to get the economy up and running again, to get everyone back on their feet, back in jobs, back to paying rent, back to getting salaries, then that's a good thing for me as well, even though it's "unfair" and "collectivist" and "socialist". Now, I'm not saying a pause is the best solution I'm not an economist, I have no idea. I'm saying it's a solution, and you shouldn't dismiss it on reflex just because it's a collectivist solution.
donclark 7y ago
> "we're in this current shit together, all of us." So are you saying that we do not have to pay rent either?
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  ... No, that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying. Keep paying rent if you can pay rent. But I understand that it's extremely difficult for some people to accept a solution that's unfair for some individuals, even though it's the solution with the least amount of total negatives. As collective solutions tend to be.
  - donclark 7y ago
    > "Keep paying rent if you can pay rent." How in the hell is anyone going to know if retailers or people can actually afford to pay rent?
    - henrikschroder 7y ago
      You ask them. If they say no, then they can't pay rent. "OMG everyone is going to totally take advantage of this!" Not everyone, but yes, plenty of people and business will. "OMG that's unfair." Yes, I acknowledged that from the start. The whole point of my argument is that this might still be preferable to the alternative, it might still be better than sticking to what's 100% fair, because collectively we might emerge stronger from this crisis if struggling businesses are afforded leniency, while the rest of us keep paying our bills on time. But thank you for perfectly illustrating my sidenote on how this way of thinking is completely alien to many Americans.
      - donclark 7y ago
        What is this? Another one of your multi-player games?
      - bawolff 7y ago
        Ok. Im a (small) landlord. None of my tennants claim to be able to pay rent. How am I buying groceries this month?
wegs 7y ago
No, there is a one-size-fits-all solution. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3SjhsZ0ztpG5bMzA3WNbVNhU/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3Sjhs... Stop interest on all loans for 90 days. Defer principal on all loans by 90 days. In 90 days, payments start up as before (and just end 90 days later). Same thing bubbles for all contracts. Leases and rents are free for 90 days. Contracts switch from net 30 to net 120 terms. Etc. You pause the cycle of debt. It works for home mortgages, small businesses, airlines, and almost everyone else. And it avoids the need for a 2 trillion bailout / stimulus package. It allows much more targeted aid at a fraction of the cost. It ain't rocket science.
- nostromo 7y ago
  This is a recipe for bank failures and a financial crisis.
  - wegs 7y ago
    Why? Banks get payments 3 months later. They can also get 0% interest loans from the fed. Why do they fail?
    - 6510 7y ago
      As a whole nothing connects the financial system to the real world. Therefore it cant fail. If the robots take over and humanity goes extinct the financial system will continue to work just fine.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      You just said there should be no stimulus package. Why did you suddenly change your mind and say "We can shift the problem to the banks and then give the banks a stimulus package"? It feels very weird. Why does it matter whether businesses or banks receive the 0% interest loans? It's just a shell game. You didn't solve anything but yet you make your own solution sound better.
  - adt2bt 7y ago
    Aren’t they also freed from servicing their debts as well? Why does pausing the debt cycle affect them disproportionately?
cmurf 7y ago
The metric needs to be, equally miserable. The innovation needed, is a misery metric. Once most everyone is equally pissed, that's the solution - doesn't matter how bizarre or ideological is seems. But of course, the track record suggests the actual solution we get will look more like neo-feudalism.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
  That's a bit romantic don't you think? If society devolves enough to make me completely and utterly miserable, opposed to my baseline misery, then there'll probably be mushroom clouds on the horizons. Whereas some of my friends and neighbors are having panic attacks because they can't go to aruba, or screaming matches with grocery clerks, etc.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

What is the collective resolution? I'm assuming it's either everyone gets free rent, or nobody does, and I'm not sure which is being implied here.

swiley 7y ago
I'm able to pay my rent. If me paying mine means the newly unemployed people don't have to during this thing then I would prefer the situation that's unfair toward me. We really kick the lowest people into the dirt here and the place we do it the most is housing. It makes our economy extremely unstable, not to mention it's pretty unpleasant to know that you're only a couple mistakes away from being in a similar situation and to be around a bunch of people who feel the same way. It doesn't need to be like this, the US is mostly trees and all but the most dense places have lots of room for growth. We've prevented it and now it's time to pay for our mistakes.
- bsanr 7y ago
  Americans live in relatively huge houses, with tons of stuff that we don't need, use, or even get any sentimental value out of. I'm not saying we need to transform into Japan - it was truly nice to be able to visit wealthier family and their big houses with their "fk you" foyers and finished basements bigger than any apartment I've ever lived in - but the average American nuclear family does not need more then 2000 square feet (if that), day-to-day. Once you eliminate speculation on grandiose properties - which in turn drives up the prices of your given McMansion or SF bungalow - maybe you can figure out a way to provide everyone with decent, dignified housing that's appropriate for their family size and lifestyle. People like to say that the economy isn't zero sum, nosiree, but it's mighty suspicious how much homelessness rises in cities where apartments go for 7 figures cash, or $3k+ a month in rent.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
    This moral grandstanding is not helpful. If you want to talk to about the endemic problems of American housing I'm happy to, after this pandemic has passed. Until then, we all should be focused on solving the immediate problems and helping each other. Pointing fingers at the broken bits and complaining about them distracts everyone.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

HammockTester 7y ago

As long as you're the one happily shelling out you can reasonably promote that idea.

vkou 7y ago
What does this mean in this context? Are we spilling ink for the sake of the owners of these retail spaces? Do you think they are going to be any better off if these retailers just stop paying rent, and go out of business, instead? Instead of grousing, the landlords should be petitioning for their mortgage payments to be suspended for this time period.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 7y ago
  What does this mean in this context? It means it's easy to suggest a solution that costs you nothing personally.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Then your response is a non-sequitor - because your criticism can be levied against both the person endorsing that solution, and the person endorsing the status quo.
  - henrikschroder 7y ago
    Oh, we are all going to pay for this crisis, one way of the other. If burning everything to the ground because pausing the economy is somehow unimaginable, then a lot more people will be unemployed, a lot more businesses will go bankrupt, and to restart the economy a couple of months from now, a lot of tax money will have been spent in unemployment benefits, food stamps, and various stimulus packages and bailouts. That's my tax money being spent, given that I'm keeping my job and my salary. If a pause means it takes less tax money to get the economy up and running again, to get everyone back on their feet, back in jobs, back to paying rent, back to getting salaries, then that's a good thing for me as well, even though it's "unfair" and "collectivist" and "socialist". Now, I'm not saying a pause is the best solution I'm not an economist, I have no idea. I'm saying it's a solution, and you shouldn't dismiss it on reflex just because it's a collectivist solution.

donclark 7y ago

> "we're in this current shit together, all of us." So are you saying that we do not have to pay rent either?

henrikschroder 7y ago
... No, that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying. Keep paying rent if you can pay rent. But I understand that it's extremely difficult for some people to accept a solution that's unfair for some individuals, even though it's the solution with the least amount of total negatives. As collective solutions tend to be.
- donclark 7y ago
  > "Keep paying rent if you can pay rent." How in the hell is anyone going to know if retailers or people can actually afford to pay rent?
  - henrikschroder 7y ago
    You ask them. If they say no, then they can't pay rent. "OMG everyone is going to totally take advantage of this!" Not everyone, but yes, plenty of people and business will. "OMG that's unfair." Yes, I acknowledged that from the start. The whole point of my argument is that this might still be preferable to the alternative, it might still be better than sticking to what's 100% fair, because collectively we might emerge stronger from this crisis if struggling businesses are afforded leniency, while the rest of us keep paying our bills on time. But thank you for perfectly illustrating my sidenote on how this way of thinking is completely alien to many Americans.
    - donclark 7y ago
      What is this? Another one of your multi-player games?
    - bawolff 7y ago
      Ok. Im a (small) landlord. None of my tennants claim to be able to pay rent. How am I buying groceries this month?

wegs 7y ago

No, there is a one-size-fits-all solution. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3SjhsZ0ztpG5bMzA3WNbVNhU/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3Sjhs... Stop interest on all loans for 90 days. Defer principal on all loans by 90 days. In 90 days, payments start up as before (and just end 90 days later). Same thing bubbles for all contracts. Leases and rents are free for 90 days. Contracts switch from net 30 to net 120 terms. Etc. You pause the cycle of debt. It works for home mortgages, small businesses, airlines, and almost everyone else. And it avoids the need for a 2 trillion bailout / stimulus package. It allows much more targeted aid at a fraction of the cost. It ain't rocket science.

nostromo 7y ago
This is a recipe for bank failures and a financial crisis.
- wegs 7y ago
  Why? Banks get payments 3 months later. They can also get 0% interest loans from the fed. Why do they fail?
  - 6510 7y ago
    As a whole nothing connects the financial system to the real world. Therefore it cant fail. If the robots take over and humanity goes extinct the financial system will continue to work just fine.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    You just said there should be no stimulus package. Why did you suddenly change your mind and say "We can shift the problem to the banks and then give the banks a stimulus package"? It feels very weird. Why does it matter whether businesses or banks receive the 0% interest loans? It's just a shell game. You didn't solve anything but yet you make your own solution sound better.
- adt2bt 7y ago
  Aren’t they also freed from servicing their debts as well? Why does pausing the debt cycle affect them disproportionately?

cmurf 7y ago

The metric needs to be, equally miserable. The innovation needed, is a misery metric. Once most everyone is equally pissed, that's the solution - doesn't matter how bizarre or ideological is seems. But of course, the track record suggests the actual solution we get will look more like neo-feudalism.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
That's a bit romantic don't you think? If society devolves enough to make me completely and utterly miserable, opposed to my baseline misery, then there'll probably be mushroom clouds on the horizons. Whereas some of my friends and neighbors are having panic attacks because they can't go to aruba, or screaming matches with grocery clerks, etc.