7 ms·

The value of this new Lemur Pro is completely in how well the software works. I had IT at my job buy me a Lemur Pro (previous model) a year or two ago. If I j

The value of this new Lemur Pro is completely in how well the software works. I had IT at my job buy me a Lemur Pro (previous model) a year or two ago. If I just stayed at my desk all day it would have been better than the Macbook Pro. But software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs. It got to be such a waste of time I gave up and went back to the MBP. Main issues were: - Lots of issues with wifi not connecting, wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx.. mostly around linux not having autodetect on the myriad options on wifi - Switching between wired at the desk and wifi was problematic, difficult to get up with the laptop and go to a meeting - Lots of issues with applications needing to be restarted when switching from external to internal monitors - Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities.. e.x. video conferencing apps like zoom, webex, etc.. the fan would go 100% the whole time and the CPU would peg due to video acceleration issues. The battery could drain down 100% in a 30 minute meeting, etc.. I tried 2 different distros. It didn't really make a difference. So realistically.. hardware on this thing is probably fine, if not as fancy looking as a MBP. It has more useful ports, so less need to carry dongles. But it's a time waster in a lot of office/dev environments if the software integration hasn't improved. This is the kind of stuff that wouldn't bother me on a personal laptop where the goal was to hack on linux. But it was a deal breaker on a corporate laptop where I needed to focus on the product.

eatonphil 7y ago
Have you tried running Windows 10 on it? I wonder if Windows can handle it any better.
- cartoonfoxes 7y ago
  The irony in this is highly underappreciated.
danieldk 7y ago
I am not sure if this will ever get better. E.g. Intel GPUs that were perfectly fine for quite a while, now have regular hangs with Linux 5.3 and 5.4 [1]. Since Linux 5.4 is an LTS version, various distributions have already switched to it. I had to downgrade to Linux 4.19 on one of my machines, because my GPU locked up ever 1-2 days. Nonsense like this make Linux difficult to use on a laptop that you have to carry around and get real work done. [1] https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_Frequent_Intel_GPU_Hangs_In_Recent_Kernels https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_F...
- dmix 7y ago
  That’s strange, usually if you buy hardware with Linux in mind and use stable software packages then you have little to worry about. Typically Intel GPUs were a safe bet across the board and you had to avoid some of the other ones. I’m curious to read more into what went wrong, it seems to be across a few bug reports.
  - hota_mazi 7y ago
    > Linux in mind and use stable software packages then you have little to worry about Linux, and by that I mean all distros, have always had difficulties with basic things such as wifi or hibernation for the better part of the past twenty years. It's baffling to me this is still an issue in 2020.
    - vbezhenar 7y ago
      I don't understand why Linux still does not have reliable hibernation. Sleep requires working with BIOS and other hardware components, so I could understand that without proper drivers things might be shaky. But hibernate is hardware-agnostic feature so it should be rock-solid by now.
      - bitwize 7y ago
        No, it's not really. There's ACPI, but a combination of wiggle room in the standard and vendors saying fuck you to any attempt at rigorous compliance testing means that there's no way to assure that any ACPI implementation will work with drivers the vendor didn't write. The whole state of the PC industry is "does Windows boot/run with this? It does? Ship it."
        dragosmocrii 7y ago
        Sounds kinda like most web development: if it runs on Chrome, it's good enough. (Guilty myself)
        7y ago
phs 7y ago
I tossed ubuntu+mate on my galago pro 4, works like a champ (and the interface works like every other ubuntu+mate that I have) Is the lemur notably different?
Zaskoda 7y ago
I've been running Ubuntu on a Dell XPS at work since 2016. I had problems using a docking station from the start so I removed it from the equation and haven't had any significant other issues since. Battery life is good, no significant networking problems, etc. I've very much enjoyed the experience. I just assumed that life would only be better on a System 76 machine. I was very surprised by this post.
- halbritt 7y ago
  I have similarly been running Ubuntu on an XPS15 mostly without any issues. Networking has been fine, standby, battery life, all that has been fine. Takes a little bit of research and tweaking to get it into a good state, but once one has the right kernel opts and GPU power management stuff worked out, it's a breeze. Not everyone wants to do that, but that's the cost of running Linux. From that point, I found it to be more reliable and pleasant than Windows 10 or Mac, all of which I use on a regular basis.
  - q_queue 7y ago
    I think it really depends on what you're trying to do. I'm the only person at my company running linux and I still can't really do things like seamlessly plug/unplug from an external monitor because while some apps scale correctly from HiDPI to normal resolution, the UI doesn't really. There are thankfully linux version of things like Zoom and Slack, and they work, mostly, but for instance I can't use zoom without headphones because pulseaudio is too problematic, whereas it works fine on a mac.
    - mbrameld 7y ago
      I have the same problem on a 2017 XPS 13 running Windows 10. When I unplug from the Dell D6000 docking station it's a crapshoot whether or not the apps I had running on the external monitors will scale correctly when they get moved to the internal screen. I also run into problems if I plug into the docking station after booting, it frequently doesn't recognize the external monitors (also Dell branded). In order to get everything to work correctly every time I need to shutdown before connecting to or disconnecting from the docking station, and also make sure the monitors are turned on before booting while connected to the docking station.
est31 7y ago
> wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx Which DE? Ultimately most DEs use NetworkManager but they have different GUI frontends. KDE Plasma's frontend has all options inside one menu. I never found it more difficult than Windows but that being said, I've left Windows behind about 9 years ago after years of dual booting, so my Windows experience might be outdated. > Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities I guess that's due to no native video decoding. It's getting there, very slowly. It's being worked on as we speak: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1610199 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1610199
- uranusjr 7y ago
  “Has everything in one menu” already sounds significantly more complex than Windows and macOS. These days their users don’t meed to do much more than selecting a network (or manually enter hidden SSID) and type in a password. The only other option they need is a button to turn wifi on/off.
  - KerrickStaley 7y ago
    That's exactly how it works on my Linux laptop (which is GNOME on Arch). I also use a Macbook Pro regularly and I don't think there's a substantive difference in ease-of-use around WiFi configuration.
    - esclerofilo 7y ago
      There is a substantive difference in WPA Enterprise configuration. When connecting with Gnome there are so many options I have to check a screenshot of the correct ones every time I configure it (which I've done 5ish times because of distro hopping+changing my password). On an iphone, all you need to do is write your username and password, then press the "trust certificate" button.
      - jcrawfordor 7y ago
        Android has this problem as well which I've always found odd. Connecting t0 802.1x networks in Windows is very straightforward, but for Android I've had to publish a guide with screenshots for people to follow.
nix0n 7y ago
I had a similar experience a few years ago with an "n series" Dell, and the solution was to only use the install disk that came with the machine, and not try to do a full OS install.
brian_herman__ 7y ago
We run linux on dell XPS13 at work unfortunately its the same. We do run debian stable though.
rossdavidh 7y ago
I'm not disputing your experience, just pointing out that I use a laptop from Lenovo (albeit a Galaga Pro), and have not had any of this. The WiFi and Zoom issues I can definitely say have not impacted me; I cannot honestly say I've tried wired networking with it very much. The battery life has also been fine. Again, not disputing your experience, just saying mine was different. It was a Galaga Pro vs. your Lemur Pro, but I would have thought the software issues would be more similar than that.
aftbit 7y ago
I am already running a Linux laptop (ThinkPad t460s) as my daily driver, so I've already conquered the Wifi setup issues, and I've never had problems switching monitors. I haven't tried Zoom but most video conferencing and e.g. YouTube seem to work fine with hardware video acceleration. I wonder if this laptop would make a good upgrade from the T460s for me.
- Teknoman117 7y ago
  What browser are you using in Linux that lets you use hardware video acceleration? I was using the patched version of Chromium for awhile...
  - mouldysammich 7y ago
    Firefox Nightly has it now on wayland.
bauerd 7y ago
Heck it's impossible to have consistent keyboard shortcuts across programs, no matter the desktop environment. I tried everything, wrote config files, remapped layouts, set Firefox config values for modifier keys, etc. Impossible. I got close with KDE, but eventually gave up.
therealmarv 7y ago
My Macbook Air recently died and in a hurry (lockdown is tomorrow) I've bought a refurbished Dell Latitude which is a little bit more powerful (last week). Surprised that Desktop Ubuntu 19.10 still does not compress RAM (but easy fixable) although Windows and Mac do that by default. It is super necessary with Chrome (Apps). Biggest downsite is that programs/sites like Slack, conferences or Youtube videos are not as smooth as on Mac although I have more horsepower now in sense of CPU. I have the big feeling that the CPU scheduler on the Mac&Windows does a way better job than Linux on desktop environments. E.g. hitting the 100% CPU area (only with Chrome somehow) I can hear the crackling sounds on conferencing calls.
cure 7y ago
About 6 weeks ago I switched from a Thinkpad to a System76 Darter Pro, and it's been pretty solid. I have none of the problems you describe. It did require Debian testing, because the Intel GPU drivers for the latest Intel CPUs are not in Debian stable yet. But it's a solid machine, and like the new Lemur Pro, it comes with Coreboot preloaded which is excellent. That whole kernel 5.4 thing with missing critical fixes for the Intel GPUs was a major screwup though, that's true. But they are all in 5.5 I believe, and have also been backported to the 5.4 kernel that's in Debian testing. Since those landed, my machine has been a pleasure to use.
michaelmrose 7y ago
Maybe they just did a poor job with that model? You have way way way more issues with your brand new designed for linux machine than I do with my 2015 thinkpad which has basically none of those issues. Granted the only video conferencing I've done is google hangouts or facebook. Needing to restart applications when switching monitors seems particularly strange. Edit: Ubuntu non lts and gnome anything after 2 have been mediocre bug factories for a while. It's not too shocking to find they still are.
Stierlitz 7y ago
> .. software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs .. Ten year old FUD!
- guggle 7y ago
  Still true though.
lukaszkups 7y ago
Had similar experience with Entroware laptop - when fan started running, it goes with full speed until I turned off the laptop completely. Tried various linux drivers but none has fixed that issue. The other issue was with the WiFi - sometimes I had to restart it like literally 10 times to make WiFi module work :| (once it was connected I had no issues until I've turned laptop off / restart it)
mark_l_watson 7y ago
When I bought my System76 laptop 18 months ago, I promised myself that I would stop my 30+ year Linux habit of playing with system configurations - a fun hobby but a time sink. I have stuck with System76's branded Ubuntu named Pop!_OS and always install their updates. So far it has been fairly trouble free except for a little time spent when updating CUDA drivers for the GPU.

eatonphil 7y ago

Have you tried running Windows 10 on it? I wonder if Windows can handle it any better.

cartoonfoxes 7y ago
The irony in this is highly underappreciated.

danieldk 7y ago

I am not sure if this will ever get better. E.g. Intel GPUs that were perfectly fine for quite a while, now have regular hangs with Linux 5.3 and 5.4 [1]. Since Linux 5.4 is an LTS version, various distributions have already switched to it. I had to downgrade to Linux 4.19 on one of my machines, because my GPU locked up ever 1-2 days. Nonsense like this make Linux difficult to use on a laptop that you have to carry around and get real work done. [1] https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_Frequent_Intel_GPU_Hangs_In_Recent_Kernels https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_F...

dmix 7y ago
That’s strange, usually if you buy hardware with Linux in mind and use stable software packages then you have little to worry about. Typically Intel GPUs were a safe bet across the board and you had to avoid some of the other ones. I’m curious to read more into what went wrong, it seems to be across a few bug reports.
- hota_mazi 7y ago
  > Linux in mind and use stable software packages then you have little to worry about Linux, and by that I mean all distros, have always had difficulties with basic things such as wifi or hibernation for the better part of the past twenty years. It's baffling to me this is still an issue in 2020.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    I don't understand why Linux still does not have reliable hibernation. Sleep requires working with BIOS and other hardware components, so I could understand that without proper drivers things might be shaky. But hibernate is hardware-agnostic feature so it should be rock-solid by now.
    - bitwize 7y ago
      No, it's not really. There's ACPI, but a combination of wiggle room in the standard and vendors saying fuck you to any attempt at rigorous compliance testing means that there's no way to assure that any ACPI implementation will work with drivers the vendor didn't write. The whole state of the PC industry is "does Windows boot/run with this? It does? Ship it."
      - dragosmocrii 7y ago
        Sounds kinda like most web development: if it runs on Chrome, it's good enough. (Guilty myself)
      - 7y ago

phs 7y ago

I tossed ubuntu+mate on my galago pro 4, works like a champ (and the interface works like every other ubuntu+mate that I have) Is the lemur notably different?

Zaskoda 7y ago

I've been running Ubuntu on a Dell XPS at work since 2016. I had problems using a docking station from the start so I removed it from the equation and haven't had any significant other issues since. Battery life is good, no significant networking problems, etc. I've very much enjoyed the experience. I just assumed that life would only be better on a System 76 machine. I was very surprised by this post.

halbritt 7y ago
I have similarly been running Ubuntu on an XPS15 mostly without any issues. Networking has been fine, standby, battery life, all that has been fine. Takes a little bit of research and tweaking to get it into a good state, but once one has the right kernel opts and GPU power management stuff worked out, it's a breeze. Not everyone wants to do that, but that's the cost of running Linux. From that point, I found it to be more reliable and pleasant than Windows 10 or Mac, all of which I use on a regular basis.
- q_queue 7y ago
  I think it really depends on what you're trying to do. I'm the only person at my company running linux and I still can't really do things like seamlessly plug/unplug from an external monitor because while some apps scale correctly from HiDPI to normal resolution, the UI doesn't really. There are thankfully linux version of things like Zoom and Slack, and they work, mostly, but for instance I can't use zoom without headphones because pulseaudio is too problematic, whereas it works fine on a mac.
  - mbrameld 7y ago
    I have the same problem on a 2017 XPS 13 running Windows 10. When I unplug from the Dell D6000 docking station it's a crapshoot whether or not the apps I had running on the external monitors will scale correctly when they get moved to the internal screen. I also run into problems if I plug into the docking station after booting, it frequently doesn't recognize the external monitors (also Dell branded). In order to get everything to work correctly every time I need to shutdown before connecting to or disconnecting from the docking station, and also make sure the monitors are turned on before booting while connected to the docking station.

est31 7y ago

> wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx Which DE? Ultimately most DEs use NetworkManager but they have different GUI frontends. KDE Plasma's frontend has all options inside one menu. I never found it more difficult than Windows but that being said, I've left Windows behind about 9 years ago after years of dual booting, so my Windows experience might be outdated. > Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities I guess that's due to no native video decoding. It's getting there, very slowly. It's being worked on as we speak: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1610199 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1610199

uranusjr 7y ago
“Has everything in one menu” already sounds significantly more complex than Windows and macOS. These days their users don’t meed to do much more than selecting a network (or manually enter hidden SSID) and type in a password. The only other option they need is a button to turn wifi on/off.
- KerrickStaley 7y ago
  That's exactly how it works on my Linux laptop (which is GNOME on Arch). I also use a Macbook Pro regularly and I don't think there's a substantive difference in ease-of-use around WiFi configuration.
  - esclerofilo 7y ago
    There is a substantive difference in WPA Enterprise configuration. When connecting with Gnome there are so many options I have to check a screenshot of the correct ones every time I configure it (which I've done 5ish times because of distro hopping+changing my password). On an iphone, all you need to do is write your username and password, then press the "trust certificate" button.
    - jcrawfordor 7y ago
      Android has this problem as well which I've always found odd. Connecting t0 802.1x networks in Windows is very straightforward, but for Android I've had to publish a guide with screenshots for people to follow.

nix0n 7y ago

I had a similar experience a few years ago with an "n series" Dell, and the solution was to only use the install disk that came with the machine, and not try to do a full OS install.

brian_herman__ 7y ago

We run linux on dell XPS13 at work unfortunately its the same. We do run debian stable though.

rossdavidh 7y ago

I'm not disputing your experience, just pointing out that I use a laptop from Lenovo (albeit a Galaga Pro), and have not had any of this. The WiFi and Zoom issues I can definitely say have not impacted me; I cannot honestly say I've tried wired networking with it very much. The battery life has also been fine. Again, not disputing your experience, just saying mine was different. It was a Galaga Pro vs. your Lemur Pro, but I would have thought the software issues would be more similar than that.

aftbit 7y ago

I am already running a Linux laptop (ThinkPad t460s) as my daily driver, so I've already conquered the Wifi setup issues, and I've never had problems switching monitors. I haven't tried Zoom but most video conferencing and e.g. YouTube seem to work fine with hardware video acceleration. I wonder if this laptop would make a good upgrade from the T460s for me.

Teknoman117 7y ago
What browser are you using in Linux that lets you use hardware video acceleration? I was using the patched version of Chromium for awhile...
- mouldysammich 7y ago
  Firefox Nightly has it now on wayland.

bauerd 7y ago

Heck it's impossible to have consistent keyboard shortcuts across programs, no matter the desktop environment. I tried everything, wrote config files, remapped layouts, set Firefox config values for modifier keys, etc. Impossible. I got close with KDE, but eventually gave up.

therealmarv 7y ago

My Macbook Air recently died and in a hurry (lockdown is tomorrow) I've bought a refurbished Dell Latitude which is a little bit more powerful (last week). Surprised that Desktop Ubuntu 19.10 still does not compress RAM (but easy fixable) although Windows and Mac do that by default. It is super necessary with Chrome (Apps). Biggest downsite is that programs/sites like Slack, conferences or Youtube videos are not as smooth as on Mac although I have more horsepower now in sense of CPU. I have the big feeling that the CPU scheduler on the Mac&Windows does a way better job than Linux on desktop environments. E.g. hitting the 100% CPU area (only with Chrome somehow) I can hear the crackling sounds on conferencing calls.

cure 7y ago

About 6 weeks ago I switched from a Thinkpad to a System76 Darter Pro, and it's been pretty solid. I have none of the problems you describe. It did require Debian testing, because the Intel GPU drivers for the latest Intel CPUs are not in Debian stable yet. But it's a solid machine, and like the new Lemur Pro, it comes with Coreboot preloaded which is excellent. That whole kernel 5.4 thing with missing critical fixes for the Intel GPUs was a major screwup though, that's true. But they are all in 5.5 I believe, and have also been backported to the 5.4 kernel that's in Debian testing. Since those landed, my machine has been a pleasure to use.

michaelmrose 7y ago

Maybe they just did a poor job with that model? You have way way way more issues with your brand new designed for linux machine than I do with my 2015 thinkpad which has basically none of those issues. Granted the only video conferencing I've done is google hangouts or facebook. Needing to restart applications when switching monitors seems particularly strange. Edit: Ubuntu non lts and gnome anything after 2 have been mediocre bug factories for a while. It's not too shocking to find they still are.

Stierlitz 7y ago

> .. software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs .. Ten year old FUD!

guggle 7y ago
Still true though.

lukaszkups 7y ago

Had similar experience with Entroware laptop - when fan started running, it goes with full speed until I turned off the laptop completely. Tried various linux drivers but none has fixed that issue. The other issue was with the WiFi - sometimes I had to restart it like literally 10 times to make WiFi module work :| (once it was connected I had no issues until I've turned laptop off / restart it)

mark_l_watson 7y ago

When I bought my System76 laptop 18 months ago, I promised myself that I would stop my 30+ year Linux habit of playing with system configurations - a fun hobby but a time sink. I have stuck with System76's branded Ubuntu named Pop!_OS and always install their updates. So far it has been fairly trouble free except for a little time spent when updating CUDA drivers for the GPU.