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In my school district they still haven't figured out how to proceed. The problem is there are a lot of low income families that they know don't have internet ac

In my school district they still haven't figured out how to proceed. The problem is there are a lot of low income families that they know don't have internet access or a computer. They can give those kids a chromebook, but that isn't very helpful with no internet access. Legally (and morally) they can't move ahead with online school if a big chunk of the students are left out. On the other hand, I was talking yesterday with a family member in another state where they have been doing online school almost since the first day (including PE, art, etc.!). I asked them what they are doing for students without a computer or internet access and apparently that state doesn't have the same equality laws so its basically a case of too bad, so sad for poor kids. What I hope comes out of this is the realization that internet access is a utility on the same level as water or electricity.

tantalor 7y ago
> too bad, so sad Ah yes the classic legal maxim of "fuck you got mine".
lawn 7y ago
In the Swedish community I live in they give all children a MacBook, and they've been doing this for many years. Given that this is Sweden almost everyone already has internet access, and if you don't you can still go to the public library and get it (and borrow a computer if you want).
- SamuelAdams 7y ago
  Would public libraries still be open? States are shutting down businesses every week, and SF has a "shelter in place" policy. For some students, libraries and other sources of public wifi are not available at the present moment.
  - jaredmosley 7y ago
    We are dealing with this in south Dallas right now. Many of the kids don't have access to computers or internet at home and the libraries and other places with hotspots (coffee shops, mcdonalds, etc) that kids normally go to to for internet are all closed. The districts are planning on giving kids Chromebooks for classes but they are also figuring out how to give them personal hotspots or enable LTE on the Chromebooks. Overall, it seems most of Juniors and Seniors that couldn't afford internet before and were close to dropping out to help pay their family's bills just got their parent's approval to start working instead of going to school. It will be very interesting (and sad) to see how this affects graduation rates and preparedness for classes come fall.
Digory 7y ago
I suspect that if we're in this boat by fall, school district dollars will be spent paying for wireless hotspots or in-home connections. Until then, we'll see band-aids. I've seen one school district parking busses with wi-fi repeaters near apartment complexes, or near student houses.
- Noos 7y ago
  if we are in this by fall, it will be moot because people will run out of money to pay for their internet. Not many people can stay out of work for 4+ months.
  - asdff 7y ago
    People are going to be behind rent sooner than that.
latortuga 7y ago
I remember buying a Chromebook back in 2014 with T-Mobile connectivity. This seems like it would be a good fit.
kogus 7y ago
I don't think electricity and water are provided for free to even the lowest income families.
- gambiting 7y ago
  You guys don't have social housing? A council owned house usually has water and electricity provided for free, or very heavily subsidized.
  - kogus 7y ago
    Good point. Yes, there is government housing, where the rent and utilities are subsidized or free, based on need. I was thinking of low-income folks who live in their own homes.
  - suchire 7y ago
    We do, but generally access is scarce and so many are homeless
- irrational 7y ago
  Where I live they can be. There is a program they can apply for to receive free or heavily subsidized utilities.
bb611 7y ago
Free and Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) is a federally recognized civil right, states and districts can't opt out of it. Unfortunately it takes lawsuits to resolve these kinds of disparities, but there is no legal basis to proceed without making appropriate accommodations for students in low income families.
- mlyle 7y ago
  The Department of Education disagrees. Look, let's do what we can to cure disparities --- special education, access, etc, but we should still be providing services to as many kids as possible. My kids in a private school are getting high quality services and distance education right now; we shouldn't deny it to most kids in public education because a few might be left behind.
  - bb611 7y ago
    I don't know how you understood my comment to mean that we should be withdrawing education from students who are able to access it. Remedy in these situations typically looks like making up lost educational hours and paying for internet access for students who are unable to afford it.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      There are districts that are actually withdrawing education and providing only enrichment instead of distance learning because of this exact rationale. I thought your comment was in support of these actions. (Indeed, one sibling of your comment is in this position). Let's do what we can immediately, and then try and make it as fair as we can next.
donw 7y ago
I’m going to expose my ignorance here, but in 2020, how many low-income families are there without internet? Also, would it the solve not just be to provide loaner 4G access points to those families? The US is one of the top per-student global spenders on K-12 education, so the money is there.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  > Also, would it the solve not just be to provide loaner 4G access points to those families? It probably would, but I don't think most school districts planned for a multi-week or multi-month pandemic. So buying access points and Chromebooks, finding all the students who need them, and distributing them, probably won't happen in the short term.
- thescriptkiddie 7y ago
  In California, at least, students are eligible for subsidized ($20/month) LTE hotspots. Apparently it is provided by Sprint as part of an agreement they made when they leased spectrum that had previously been set aside for educational use. These could and should been made free for low-income families. https://foundationccc.org/What-We-Do/Student-Success/California-Connects https://foundationccc.org/What-We-Do/Student-Success/Califor...
  - RealityVoid 7y ago
    I'm not from the US, but it sounds like the state could and should leverage this to the maximum.
  - suchire 7y ago
    These are likely insufficient for video-based schoolwork or materials. That would max out any quota set for these hotspots
    - therealx 7y ago
      Theres no quota on the Sprint grandfathering. Check out the Calyx institute hotspot for an example (and a cool org)
kedean 7y ago
> On the other hand, I was talking yesterday with a family member in another state where they have been doing online school almost since the first day It's highly likely they aren't supposed to doing that. A lot of school districts around me decided to go their own way when the state didn't give specific directions after shutting every school down, mainly really rural ones interestingly enough. They are now having to back-peddle as the state steps in and exerts their authority over the districts. Similarly, in districts that simply postponed everything indefinitely (as they were supposed to), there were a number of individual teachers who tried to immediately start doing remote instruction with their kids and were quickly reprimanded by their district as soon as they were found out. The reason is of course education equality. The state wants to make sure that every student is accounted for first. My wife is acutely aware of it since she has a non-zero number of students that lack home internet access. Students who many people would like to disregard in favor of the vast majority who do. I feel like both sides are valid though...you can't simply not educate 99% of students because of the problems of the other 1%, but at the same time you need to make sure that 1% is able to get access too, because every child does matter.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  > there were a number of individual teachers who tried to immediately start doing remote instruction with their kids and were quickly reprimanded by their district as soon as they were found out. That sounds very odd.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Not if you spend enough time chatting with teachers. From what I have heard, oftentimes they find themselves blocked by administrative busybodies at every turn, as a matter of course.
    - monadic2 7y ago
      > From what I have heard, oftentimes they find themselves blocked by administrative busybodies at every turn, as a matter of course. This doesn't seem to be a case of "administrative busybodies", though, there are material consequences to only educating the students with access to internet. Under another president, we could be looking at turning internet into a public utility. Sadly, we are stuck with making do with this crisis the best we can.
ddlatham 7y ago
So the most equal solution is no school for anyone. Of course, that likely has more impact on the kids without family support than those in families that can manage some education on their own, and actually makes inequality worse than starting with best effort and working to fill in the gaps.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
hnburnsy 7y ago
Guidance from the Federal Department of Education... >To be clear: ensuring compliance with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), † Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act (Section 504), and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act should not prevent any school from offering educational programs through distance instruction. https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/frontpage/faq/rr/policyguidance/Supple%20Fact%20Sheet%203.21.20%20FINAL.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/frontpage/faq/rr/...
- jcrawfordor 7y ago
  This concern is generally less related to disabilities and more related to poverty. The constitution requires that all students have equal access to education - Brown v. Board of Education is an important decision in this vein, for example. Moving the school district to a system which some students are not able to access due to inability to afford the means of access would almost certainly be found in violation.
SubiculumCode 7y ago
Same here. The best case for community broadband I've ever heard.
dillondoyle 7y ago
The house stimulus bill has money for funding broadband for this reason (and remote work though if can't afford internet probably can't work remote...). The Republicans are attacking it as 'Obamaphone 2.0'... Which actually sounds like a much quicker way to get internet to more kids in cities. We've already spent how much money failing on rural broadband - but I think the same issues with rural cell service.
test6554 7y ago
“Too bad so sad for poor kids” C’est la vie.

tantalor 7y ago

> too bad, so sad Ah yes the classic legal maxim of "fuck you got mine".

lawn 7y ago

In the Swedish community I live in they give all children a MacBook, and they've been doing this for many years. Given that this is Sweden almost everyone already has internet access, and if you don't you can still go to the public library and get it (and borrow a computer if you want).

SamuelAdams 7y ago
Would public libraries still be open? States are shutting down businesses every week, and SF has a "shelter in place" policy. For some students, libraries and other sources of public wifi are not available at the present moment.
- jaredmosley 7y ago
  We are dealing with this in south Dallas right now. Many of the kids don't have access to computers or internet at home and the libraries and other places with hotspots (coffee shops, mcdonalds, etc) that kids normally go to to for internet are all closed. The districts are planning on giving kids Chromebooks for classes but they are also figuring out how to give them personal hotspots or enable LTE on the Chromebooks. Overall, it seems most of Juniors and Seniors that couldn't afford internet before and were close to dropping out to help pay their family's bills just got their parent's approval to start working instead of going to school. It will be very interesting (and sad) to see how this affects graduation rates and preparedness for classes come fall.

Digory 7y ago

I suspect that if we're in this boat by fall, school district dollars will be spent paying for wireless hotspots or in-home connections. Until then, we'll see band-aids. I've seen one school district parking busses with wi-fi repeaters near apartment complexes, or near student houses.

Noos 7y ago
if we are in this by fall, it will be moot because people will run out of money to pay for their internet. Not many people can stay out of work for 4+ months.
- asdff 7y ago
  People are going to be behind rent sooner than that.

latortuga 7y ago

I remember buying a Chromebook back in 2014 with T-Mobile connectivity. This seems like it would be a good fit.

kogus 7y ago

I don't think electricity and water are provided for free to even the lowest income families.

gambiting 7y ago
You guys don't have social housing? A council owned house usually has water and electricity provided for free, or very heavily subsidized.
- kogus 7y ago
  Good point. Yes, there is government housing, where the rent and utilities are subsidized or free, based on need. I was thinking of low-income folks who live in their own homes.
- suchire 7y ago
  We do, but generally access is scarce and so many are homeless
irrational 7y ago
Where I live they can be. There is a program they can apply for to receive free or heavily subsidized utilities.

bb611 7y ago

Free and Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) is a federally recognized civil right, states and districts can't opt out of it. Unfortunately it takes lawsuits to resolve these kinds of disparities, but there is no legal basis to proceed without making appropriate accommodations for students in low income families.

mlyle 7y ago
The Department of Education disagrees. Look, let's do what we can to cure disparities --- special education, access, etc, but we should still be providing services to as many kids as possible. My kids in a private school are getting high quality services and distance education right now; we shouldn't deny it to most kids in public education because a few might be left behind.
- bb611 7y ago
  I don't know how you understood my comment to mean that we should be withdrawing education from students who are able to access it. Remedy in these situations typically looks like making up lost educational hours and paying for internet access for students who are unable to afford it.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    There are districts that are actually withdrawing education and providing only enrichment instead of distance learning because of this exact rationale. I thought your comment was in support of these actions. (Indeed, one sibling of your comment is in this position). Let's do what we can immediately, and then try and make it as fair as we can next.

donw 7y ago

I’m going to expose my ignorance here, but in 2020, how many low-income families are there without internet? Also, would it the solve not just be to provide loaner 4G access points to those families? The US is one of the top per-student global spenders on K-12 education, so the money is there.

jimbokun 7y ago
> Also, would it the solve not just be to provide loaner 4G access points to those families? It probably would, but I don't think most school districts planned for a multi-week or multi-month pandemic. So buying access points and Chromebooks, finding all the students who need them, and distributing them, probably won't happen in the short term.
thescriptkiddie 7y ago
In California, at least, students are eligible for subsidized ($20/month) LTE hotspots. Apparently it is provided by Sprint as part of an agreement they made when they leased spectrum that had previously been set aside for educational use. These could and should been made free for low-income families. https://foundationccc.org/What-We-Do/Student-Success/California-Connects https://foundationccc.org/What-We-Do/Student-Success/Califor...
- RealityVoid 7y ago
  I'm not from the US, but it sounds like the state could and should leverage this to the maximum.
- suchire 7y ago
  These are likely insufficient for video-based schoolwork or materials. That would max out any quota set for these hotspots
  - therealx 7y ago
    Theres no quota on the Sprint grandfathering. Check out the Calyx institute hotspot for an example (and a cool org)

kedean 7y ago

> On the other hand, I was talking yesterday with a family member in another state where they have been doing online school almost since the first day It's highly likely they aren't supposed to doing that. A lot of school districts around me decided to go their own way when the state didn't give specific directions after shutting every school down, mainly really rural ones interestingly enough. They are now having to back-peddle as the state steps in and exerts their authority over the districts. Similarly, in districts that simply postponed everything indefinitely (as they were supposed to), there were a number of individual teachers who tried to immediately start doing remote instruction with their kids and were quickly reprimanded by their district as soon as they were found out. The reason is of course education equality. The state wants to make sure that every student is accounted for first. My wife is acutely aware of it since she has a non-zero number of students that lack home internet access. Students who many people would like to disregard in favor of the vast majority who do. I feel like both sides are valid though...you can't simply not educate 99% of students because of the problems of the other 1%, but at the same time you need to make sure that 1% is able to get access too, because every child does matter.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
> there were a number of individual teachers who tried to immediately start doing remote instruction with their kids and were quickly reprimanded by their district as soon as they were found out. That sounds very odd.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Not if you spend enough time chatting with teachers. From what I have heard, oftentimes they find themselves blocked by administrative busybodies at every turn, as a matter of course.
  - monadic2 7y ago
    > From what I have heard, oftentimes they find themselves blocked by administrative busybodies at every turn, as a matter of course. This doesn't seem to be a case of "administrative busybodies", though, there are material consequences to only educating the students with access to internet. Under another president, we could be looking at turning internet into a public utility. Sadly, we are stuck with making do with this crisis the best we can.

ddlatham 7y ago

So the most equal solution is no school for anyone. Of course, that likely has more impact on the kids without family support than those in families that can manage some education on their own, and actually makes inequality worse than starting with best effort and working to fill in the gaps.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

hnburnsy 7y ago

Guidance from the Federal Department of Education... >To be clear: ensuring compliance with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), † Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act (Section 504), and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act should not prevent any school from offering educational programs through distance instruction. https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/frontpage/faq/rr/policyguidance/Supple%20Fact%20Sheet%203.21.20%20FINAL.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/frontpage/faq/rr/...

jcrawfordor 7y ago
This concern is generally less related to disabilities and more related to poverty. The constitution requires that all students have equal access to education - Brown v. Board of Education is an important decision in this vein, for example. Moving the school district to a system which some students are not able to access due to inability to afford the means of access would almost certainly be found in violation.

SubiculumCode 7y ago

Same here. The best case for community broadband I've ever heard.

dillondoyle 7y ago

The house stimulus bill has money for funding broadband for this reason (and remote work though if can't afford internet probably can't work remote...). The Republicans are attacking it as 'Obamaphone 2.0'... Which actually sounds like a much quicker way to get internet to more kids in cities. We've already spent how much money failing on rural broadband - but I think the same issues with rural cell service.

test6554 7y ago

“Too bad so sad for poor kids” C’est la vie.