5 ms·

If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely doesn’t work

by oefrha 7y ago

If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely doesn’t work at all.

mrdrozdov 7y ago
I don’t believe most people are jerks. They are just in disbelief that such a dire situation is possible. Yes, it’s important to ask and with a high level of seriousness. If the internet has taught me anything, it’s that people need to read something 8 or more times before fully internalizing it.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  It's the same reason people climb over fences and past signs at the Grand Canyon for a photo and end up falling: they've never experienced mortal danger and and have been so coddled by modern society that they don't even know what it looks like.
- oefrha 7y ago
  I didn’t say most people, I said “abound”. Even 5% of people ignoring “asking nicely” could deal critical damage containment efforts, and I suspect the number is more than 5%.
  - smichel17 7y ago
    The Imperial College report[1] found suppression to be effective even with much less compliance. Here are the different measures they modeled and the assumed compliance, taken from the table on page 6 of the report and edited out the info about assumed impact on transmission, for brevity. > Case isolation in the home — Assume 70% compliance — Symptomatic cases stay at home for 7 days. Household contacts remain unchanged. > Voluntary home quarantine — Assume 50% compliance — Following identification of a symptomaticcase in the household, all household members remain at home for 14 days. > Social distancing of those over 70 years of age — Assume 75% compliance > Social distancing of entire population — Assume 75% reduced contact outside household, school or workplace (the wording here is different, does not mention "compliance") > Closure of schools and universities — 100% of schools, 75% of universities I would recommend reading the report. Unlike certain summaries, the report itself is very clear about all the assumptions baked in, and so you won't get a false sense of "This is 100% how it will be". (That said, I'm not questioning their numbers since I think they're likely more accurate than any I could come up with myself). [1]: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s...
  - mrdrozdov 7y ago
    I meant that most of the people who are not self-isolating are not jerks. To convince them to participate in containment, their more responsible friends, family, and colleagues need to reach out, and more importantly we need to have consistent messaging from the government.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  as much as I agree on the importance of flatting the curve, I also share this sentiment. there are people who have been living in a precarious state for far too long and for who flatting the curve seems a hypocrit luxury invented by those who have ignored them for far too long. the list would include anyone incarcerated, undocumented workers, addicts on hard drugs now unable to get their fix[1], migrants stuck between borders or in a refugee camp, ... the list is long and incomplete. then there are those who have fallen prey to politicans telling them it's a hoax and who have made up their mind long ago (once the mind is made up it's impossible to walk them back to another reasoning), and now see it as just another attack by cancel culture on their values. then there are the politicans who use a blunt tool like closing borders and export stops: notable example any EU country (Germany, France etc) who watched Italy's numbers explode and refused to supply PPE under the justification that it's soon needed by themselves (ignoring that early containment would be a common goal). Especially in Europe the lack of a common coherent response is a disappointment - and instead every country is on its own. then there is cancel culture itself who like to throw these camps under the bus and use overly simplistic reasoning and resort to name-calling which hardens their opponents views even further. maybe this is cynical but I doubt we'll win this, instead we'll just muddle through as always and either blame each other or congratulate how well we did depending on the individual outcome. [1] methadone is only an option if you're already a registered user, and I doubt priority of doctors today is to give appointments to addicts who suddenly see themselves facing a supply problem
bitcharmer 7y ago
This. I'm terrified by the number of utter idiots violating the restrictions and putting so many vulnerable people at risk. Or those people recorded while spreading their spit all over a train cart. Where is this coming from? What is those people's end game? It can't be due to stupidity; there must be some malice in this behaviour as well, right?
- meddlepal 7y ago
  I don't think there is any malice, it's just ignorance. We're in uncharted territory here and people have no idea how to behave. Not to mention humans are social creatures and it's very much against our instincts to be shut-ins that don't interact.
  - h_r 7y ago
    What... what?! You think that | ...those people recorded while spreading their spit all over a train cart. are simply acting in ignorance because they have no idea how to behave?
    - meddlepal 7y ago
      Oh I misunderstood, yes some people vwant too see the world burn or alternatively they don't understand the gravity of the situation and the potential harm to themselves or others.
  - jkachmar 7y ago
    > We’re in uncharted territory here [...] Small point of disagreement on this one. There may not be a 1:1 correspondence between what’s happening now and any exact historical event, but I would have hoped that traditionally Western nations would have studied countries affected by SARS (et al.) and learned from their successes/failures.
- iso1631 7y ago
  Some people just want to watch the world burn
thinkingemote 7y ago
I believe that the trend to call vast numbers of people selfish and irrational is itself inaccurate and part of in group psychology. People who are not like our group are immoral. Perhaps someone is struggling with drugs or mental issues or poverty and needs to go out, perhaps there are other factors which should not be waved way as selfishness or being jerks? How can you tell? It's easier not to bother and have less empathy, ironically. We should take a page out of social scientists and ask these others how they think and feel and not simply cast them away to the immoral bin. I can detect a certain glee in people who are looking forward to harsher measures to punish the outsider. It's similar to what it was like after 9/11. Many people would do anything to save lives and punish the evil. We should take a step back before we step forward on people.
- oefrha 7y ago
  I’m pretty sure people who go to pubs and beaches aren’t people who are “struggling with drugs or mental issues or poverty and need to go out”.
  - kiliantics 7y ago
    I don't know about beaches. I can easily go to a beach and stay more than 2m away from others and I get to enjoy lots of fresh air, exercise, and time outside of my tiny apartment. Definitely a necessary therapy in these times.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    Only half-jokingly, people who go to the pub during a pandemic might have an alcohol problem.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Counterpoint - liquor stores are considered essential businesses, at least currently in NY, so why should being an alcoholic force you to go to a bar?
- ryandrake 7y ago
bamboozled 7y ago
Maybe it takes time to adjust after they were told for weeks it was a hoax? You're blaming the wrong people.
- oefrha 7y ago
  I’m not actually blaming the jerks (which is rather pointless, jerks will be jerks), I’m blaming governments for ostensibly believing jerks don’t exist and asking nicely is enough.
  - bamboozled 7y ago
    You’re basically asking for authoritarianism. Becareful doing this. There are plenty of places you can find that outside the US.
- loopz 7y ago
  Indeed: https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645515793 https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645...
rorykoehler 7y ago
It's also a cultural problem. We've taken individualism too far. It's become a religion with dogmatic followers who will double down on it even when it is absolutely the worst option for the circumstance.

by oefrha 7y ago

If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely doesn’t work at all.

mrdrozdov 7y ago

I don’t believe most people are jerks. They are just in disbelief that such a dire situation is possible. Yes, it’s important to ask and with a high level of seriousness. If the internet has taught me anything, it’s that people need to read something 8 or more times before fully internalizing it.

nkrisc 7y ago
It's the same reason people climb over fences and past signs at the Grand Canyon for a photo and end up falling: they've never experienced mortal danger and and have been so coddled by modern society that they don't even know what it looks like.
oefrha 7y ago
I didn’t say most people, I said “abound”. Even 5% of people ignoring “asking nicely” could deal critical damage containment efforts, and I suspect the number is more than 5%.
- smichel17 7y ago
  The Imperial College report[1] found suppression to be effective even with much less compliance. Here are the different measures they modeled and the assumed compliance, taken from the table on page 6 of the report and edited out the info about assumed impact on transmission, for brevity. > Case isolation in the home — Assume 70% compliance — Symptomatic cases stay at home for 7 days. Household contacts remain unchanged. > Voluntary home quarantine — Assume 50% compliance — Following identification of a symptomaticcase in the household, all household members remain at home for 14 days. > Social distancing of those over 70 years of age — Assume 75% compliance > Social distancing of entire population — Assume 75% reduced contact outside household, school or workplace (the wording here is different, does not mention "compliance") > Closure of schools and universities — 100% of schools, 75% of universities I would recommend reading the report. Unlike certain summaries, the report itself is very clear about all the assumptions baked in, and so you won't get a false sense of "This is 100% how it will be". (That said, I'm not questioning their numbers since I think they're likely more accurate than any I could come up with myself). [1]: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s...
- mrdrozdov 7y ago
  I meant that most of the people who are not self-isolating are not jerks. To convince them to participate in containment, their more responsible friends, family, and colleagues need to reach out, and more importantly we need to have consistent messaging from the government.
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
as much as I agree on the importance of flatting the curve, I also share this sentiment. there are people who have been living in a precarious state for far too long and for who flatting the curve seems a hypocrit luxury invented by those who have ignored them for far too long. the list would include anyone incarcerated, undocumented workers, addicts on hard drugs now unable to get their fix[1], migrants stuck between borders or in a refugee camp, ... the list is long and incomplete. then there are those who have fallen prey to politicans telling them it's a hoax and who have made up their mind long ago (once the mind is made up it's impossible to walk them back to another reasoning), and now see it as just another attack by cancel culture on their values. then there are the politicans who use a blunt tool like closing borders and export stops: notable example any EU country (Germany, France etc) who watched Italy's numbers explode and refused to supply PPE under the justification that it's soon needed by themselves (ignoring that early containment would be a common goal). Especially in Europe the lack of a common coherent response is a disappointment - and instead every country is on its own. then there is cancel culture itself who like to throw these camps under the bus and use overly simplistic reasoning and resort to name-calling which hardens their opponents views even further. maybe this is cynical but I doubt we'll win this, instead we'll just muddle through as always and either blame each other or congratulate how well we did depending on the individual outcome. [1] methadone is only an option if you're already a registered user, and I doubt priority of doctors today is to give appointments to addicts who suddenly see themselves facing a supply problem

bitcharmer 7y ago

This. I'm terrified by the number of utter idiots violating the restrictions and putting so many vulnerable people at risk. Or those people recorded while spreading their spit all over a train cart. Where is this coming from? What is those people's end game? It can't be due to stupidity; there must be some malice in this behaviour as well, right?

meddlepal 7y ago
I don't think there is any malice, it's just ignorance. We're in uncharted territory here and people have no idea how to behave. Not to mention humans are social creatures and it's very much against our instincts to be shut-ins that don't interact.
- h_r 7y ago
  What... what?! You think that | ...those people recorded while spreading their spit all over a train cart. are simply acting in ignorance because they have no idea how to behave?
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    Oh I misunderstood, yes some people vwant too see the world burn or alternatively they don't understand the gravity of the situation and the potential harm to themselves or others.
- jkachmar 7y ago
  > We’re in uncharted territory here [...] Small point of disagreement on this one. There may not be a 1:1 correspondence between what’s happening now and any exact historical event, but I would have hoped that traditionally Western nations would have studied countries affected by SARS (et al.) and learned from their successes/failures.
iso1631 7y ago
Some people just want to watch the world burn

thinkingemote 7y ago

I believe that the trend to call vast numbers of people selfish and irrational is itself inaccurate and part of in group psychology. People who are not like our group are immoral. Perhaps someone is struggling with drugs or mental issues or poverty and needs to go out, perhaps there are other factors which should not be waved way as selfishness or being jerks? How can you tell? It's easier not to bother and have less empathy, ironically. We should take a page out of social scientists and ask these others how they think and feel and not simply cast them away to the immoral bin. I can detect a certain glee in people who are looking forward to harsher measures to punish the outsider. It's similar to what it was like after 9/11. Many people would do anything to save lives and punish the evil. We should take a step back before we step forward on people.

oefrha 7y ago
I’m pretty sure people who go to pubs and beaches aren’t people who are “struggling with drugs or mental issues or poverty and need to go out”.
- kiliantics 7y ago
  I don't know about beaches. I can easily go to a beach and stay more than 2m away from others and I get to enjoy lots of fresh air, exercise, and time outside of my tiny apartment. Definitely a necessary therapy in these times.
- adrianN 7y ago
  Only half-jokingly, people who go to the pub during a pandemic might have an alcohol problem.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Counterpoint - liquor stores are considered essential businesses, at least currently in NY, so why should being an alcoholic force you to go to a bar?
ryandrake 7y ago

bamboozled 7y ago

Maybe it takes time to adjust after they were told for weeks it was a hoax? You're blaming the wrong people.

oefrha 7y ago
I’m not actually blaming the jerks (which is rather pointless, jerks will be jerks), I’m blaming governments for ostensibly believing jerks don’t exist and asking nicely is enough.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  You’re basically asking for authoritarianism. Becareful doing this. There are plenty of places you can find that outside the US.
loopz 7y ago
Indeed: https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645515793 https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645...

rorykoehler 7y ago

It's also a cultural problem. We've taken individualism too far. It's become a religion with dogmatic followers who will double down on it even when it is absolutely the worst option for the circumstance.