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Covid-19 in Hungary: Viktor Orbán pursues dictatorial powers

99 points by nanna 7y ago

ivrrimum 7y ago
sad ://
pezo1919 7y ago
Hungarian here. We are totally fucked. Many people want the gov to make quarantine real but it's not happening yet. The old people (they are mostly Orbán voters) are on the streets. When I look out to the window I rarely see a mask. 10-15% of the people. Elderly people and many others still claim C19 is fake. Orbán already has the whole control of the country, now with that we're going to stay here for a dozens of years. Good bye EU, good bye civilization. I'll leave to a better place as soon C19 will go away in the world - if there will be a chance for that, not sure. Hungarian health is shit. Lombardy has something like 9.3/10 in terms of peoples health, Hungary has 2.2 (higher is better). My estimation is 500k deaths (10 million population) in my country in 3-6 months - based on data from Italy and South Korea plus health data. The worse thing is our sociaty. We don't have. There are mostly poor, stupid people with no ability to even read, understand, etc. I am not kidding. I know it sounds harsh. That's fckin hungarian culture based on our sad history. It's done.
- lihaciudaniel 7y ago
  Romanian here. We are also totally fucked. [rant] Most of our youth is fucking gone in Diaspora, all we have is old people. Stuff that is happening here is worst since we got rid of communism in '89 everyone is panic buying everyone is in for themselves. Honestly a dictatorship wouldn't be so bad because we need good leaders in these darkest times, crowds are so irrational nowadays. [/rant]
  - chimen 7y ago
    Did you live in Romania before '89 to experience dictatorship? Since when dictatorship implies good leadership anyway?
  - decebalus1 7y ago
    Salut, fellow (originally) Romanian here. > Honestly a dictatorship wouldn't be so bad because we need good leaders in these darkest times Yeah, no thanks. You're either born after '89 or way before '89 to have this type of thinking.
    - lihaciudaniel 7y ago
      Seems so despite your bio: "holding the means of production" you must love opensource;)
- osrec 7y ago
  What makes you believe that 5% of your population will be unable to withstand the coronavirus? Seems a little high to me (I am not a doctor, just basing this on what UK government has published around recovery rates).
  - jasonv 7y ago
    Why do you ask a question about the second half of a paragraph, wherein the answer to your question is in the first half of said paragraph?
    - osrec 7y ago
      Is it? Nothing in the first part suggests that the older people will die at a higher rate in Hungary compared to elsewhere, should they all contract the virus.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        5% is the number usually passed around in case of a healthcare system over capacity and having to triage people, and that doesn't count people dying because of untreated things other than COVID-19.
        osrec 7y ago
        I believe it's 5% of those tested; a group which will almost certainly be composed of those more vulnerable. Thus, I don't think it's representative of the entire population.
  - grecy 7y ago
    You need to look at countries that have had COVID-19 for a longer time to see the real death rate. Countries like the UK, US, Australia, Canada, etc. are only just spiking on infections, and it takes a while before deaths spike as a result (around a week or two). See this graph to understand it [0] Italy has a 9.25% death rate [1] as of today. [0] https://miro.medium.com/max/9350/1*r-ddYhoUtP_se6x-NOEinA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/9350/1*r-ddYhoUtP_se6x-NOEinA.pn... [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
- thephyber 7y ago
  On the upside, the “Emperor has no Clothes” governments will be shown for the propagandists they are when COVID rips through the country. It will be remarkably little comfort at the time. Thankfully Trump changed his message after Wall Street and Fox News personality Tucker Carlson called out his political spin. In the end, I fear the virus will community spread everywhere unless the _entire world_ takes it seriously _at the same time_, but I don’t foresee that happening.
  - joshstrange 7y ago
    > Thankfully Trump changed his message after Wall Street and Fox News personality Tucker Carlson called out his political spin. Are we watching the same thing? I've watched almost every single press conference and Trump has not "changed his tune" rather he is than continuing to lie, write history, and downplay the virus. Just watch, when his eyes are down he is reading off prepared notes, then he looks up and starts riffing (lying and downplaying). He may be taking it semi-seriously but he is dog-whistling to his base constantly about how it's not his fault and it's not a big deal.
  - jariel 7y ago
    No, it doesn't matter because the moment Trump 'changed his tune' all of his followers erased in their minds the history of him denying reality. To them, he was always acting with foresight. You cannot discredit someone who robbed a bank and literally denies it the next day, along with millions of followers who also deny it even having seen the robbery first hand. Your assumption of 'credit' implies some kind of rationality, there isn't. It's just a big personality fight. Whatever Trump does or says is right, by virtue of the fact he said it. FYI - the same could apply to popular characters of other kinds, this not just Trump, he's just a good example. Edit: I should add, I feel this way specifically because I enjoy reading comments from various news sources as a measure of certain kinds of populism, and about 2/3 of the commenters currently on FoxNews are very pro Trump, often hailing is 'early action' etc. on the issue, completely disregarding the fact that only days ago, he was dismissing the issue as a hoax, literally indicating 'we only have a few cases, it will be zero soon' - all the while Wuhan and other places blow out of control. This should be enough to destroy any leaders' credibility. And of course, this is not a left/right/up/down thing, there are leaders of all political stripes who either do such ridiculous things or, who are credible - but still have followers who'll believe their statements over any kind of reality. I think this is more common than not: we believe personalities more than we believe facts.
- imjustsaying 7y ago
  Hungarian here. Goodbye civilization? Most people can't read? It's done? No my friend, isolation seems to be getting to your head. "When I look out the window, only 10-15% are wearing masks". That's far more than many other places.
  - dpc_pw 7y ago
    That top level comment is such a typical somewhat smart central European youngster (now maybe in their 30s, like me) that was heavily brainwashed the whole childhood how UE is soooo much superior and civilized, and the their own culture and people are so inferior because of backwards religion and backwards conservatism. For them, the unelected officials ruling UE is a pinacle of democracy, while lawfully elected politicians at home are dictators, and so on. I was raised in the same environment in Poland, was a subject of the same UE-love brainwashing most of my youth, and have/had plenty of friends with the same view.
    - mpfundstein 7y ago
      I am from Germany. Same here
      - balfirevic 7y ago
        Same what? How are local German culture and EU culture in opposition?
        thu2111 7y ago
        He's not making any argument about culture. Not even sure what EU culture would be - it's a bureaucracy?
    - saiya-jin 7y ago
      Well, for someone who left country between yours and OPs (Slovakia), which is in much better shape than Hungary now, and probably +-same as Poland (no hard numbers now), its kind of true. Mind you, EU is no saint but our countries benefit from it massively, and the drawbacks are comparably tiny. There are nice, good and working things back home. But they are hugely overshadowed by amount of things that don't work as they should - social system, healthcare, high criminality, utter pervasive corruption on all levels. We also have huge issues with big roma population that all politicians gave up on long time ago. Nobody cares about them anymore, I'd say they are a ticking bomb. On top of all that, many folks are xenophobic, if not outright racist. You can have wonderful deep kind relationship or encounters with strangers, but people can be proper selfish assholes on a level I haven't seen in the west. Politicians, always the worst scum of the given population, are a bad, corrupt joke through whole spectrum. I could go on for hours. Why... I moved, just like millions others and didn't look back (not EU). Its nice to visit, but that's about it. I can see on most folks back home how not-really-happy they are, kinda OK is the norm.
- zpeti 7y ago
  Oh god, please. Stop thinking that things are so shit for you - that you are special - specially fucked. Actually, most places in the world are having major issues. Shortages everywhere, people not keeping the quarantines. Do you read UK or Italian news? London Tube was full this morning. Stop calling your own country stupid and poor. It reflects extremely badly on yourself, you don't make yourself look clever, you make yourself look like an unloyal hysterical person.
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    “loyalty to the nation, always; loyalty to the government, when it deserves it. “
    - balfirevic 7y ago
      > "loyalty to the nation, always" No, not even that part.
      - hprotagonist 7y ago
        loyalty requires the obligation of criticism.
- tryitnow 7y ago
  You know this post is authentically Hungarian because of the pessimism.
- 101404 7y ago
  Hungary has a "very high" HDI (higher is better), a very low GINI (lower is better), and a surprisingly high GDP PPP per capita. At least that's what Wikipedia tells me. You may be a bit too pessimistic.
  - dpc_pw 7y ago
    > You may be a bit too pessimistic. They already said they're Hungarian. :D
- throwawayspain 7y ago
  Spaniard here. Death rates are around 0.6%. Depends on the population pyramid, etc. Forget the detected cases. Focus only on deaths, multiply by the 0.6% rate and you've got the number of infected up to ~17 days ago. From then, exponential growth: doubles every 2 to 4 days, except if contained. The health care system doesn't matter: the growth is exponential; it takes not long for it to crumble, however good it might be. That's happening in Italy (incl. Lombardia) and Spain. What matters how much profilactic material there is (masks, etc) and ventilators; and to prevent the exponential spreading with containment. In Germany (where I leave) I'm yet to see a single mask. At least people are taking containment more seriously than the government. We'll see what happens when we hit 1000 deaths next Sunday.
- rv-de 7y ago
  But those old orban voters are going to drop dead in masses very soon. So there is hope. Seriously.
jasonv 7y ago
My parents fled Hungary in '56 and landed in the US, on the west coast. I spent a lot of the last decade in Europe, and a lot of my free time in Hungary. Loved it, enjoyed it, thought a future me could retire there. The parallels between US right now, and Hungary right now, are alarming. It's overtly called out in the press... so it's part of the conversation, but we're full circle on what my parents (and grandparents) went through and how a redemptive arc is, or is not, available.
magduf 7y ago
People complain about dictatorships, but the absolute best form of government is actually a dictatorship, because it's efficient and looks out for the interests of the people. Of course, this means it has to be a "benevolent dictatorship". The problem with dictatorships is either your dictator isn't benevolent, or you have a great dictator but then he dies and his son takes over and he's terrible. There's lots of examples in history of excellent dictators/authoritarians: Marcus Aurelius of Rome, and Elizabeth I of England, for example. Of course, with Marcus Aurelius, there was a movie made about what happened there (Gladiator, 2000) when he crappy son took over.
- jariel 7y ago
  No, your first premise is false - even a 'benevolent dictatorship' is not 'the best thing' for the people in most situations. In certain times of crises, maybe, but otherwise, no.
  - curiousmindz 7y ago
    GP gave some good points about benevolent dictatorship. Can you elaborate on why it wouldn't be "the best thing" in general? And ideally weight that against all the other scenarios where it is.
    - jariel 7y ago
      The premise of 'benevolent dictatorship' is absurd to begin with because it's a living contradiction. Politics, power, and hubris are inseparable. Powers exist to benefit and protect themselves, even agencies with the 'best intent' fall into traps of self-delusion and aggrandizement. We saw 100 revolutions in the last century, most of them 'in the name of the people' - and almost all of them failed and did mostly the opposite of that even if there were a 'few wins' here and there. Literacy and some kinds of healthcare increased dramatically in Cuba ... and yet ... we still have Castro Inc.'s totalitarian fist 50 years later. The very authoritarianism of any regime which gives it the power to do something possibly good in the short term is exactly the thing that prevents it from adapting in the long term. Also, authoritarianism tends to limit the scope of influence and authority to a smaller groups, which is not good for many things that require a lot of voices. Creative fields, research, even market economies have lots of actors. If Hungary were willing to give 'temporary powers' to some person who was not Orban, for say 6 months, well then maybe they'd have something, but otherwise, this looks like a power grab Putin style.
cs702 7y ago
From the Wikipedia page on demagogues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue): -- begin quote -- Demagogues usually advocate immediate, forceful action to address a crisis while accusing moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness or disloyalty. Once elected to high executive office, demagogues typically unravel constitutional limits on executive power and attempt to convert their democracy to dictatorship. ... Methods [used by demagogues]: * Scapegoating * Fearmongering * Lying * Emotional oratory and personal charisma * Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty * Promising the impossible * Violence and physical intimidation * Personal insults and ridicule * Vulgarity and outrageous behavior * Folksy posturing * Gross oversimplification * Attacking the news media -- end quote --
- lostmsu 7y ago
  This post along with this very comment do at least: * fearmongering * Accusing of disloyalty * Personal insult * Gross oversimplification If the media law has a clause about being active only in national emergency, it might be OK (not that I'd vote for it).
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  Also quoted on this page: "Even ordinary politicians use some of these techniques from time to time" There's really nothing on here that demonstrates that you can identify or rule out a demagogue by the presence or absence of these methods in use by them. I'm sure many will try though, and many more will nod their heads in approval.
- mayankkaizen 7y ago
  You have me the exact content I needed to explain the leadership of my country.
vearwhershuh 7y ago
Compare and contrast with the highest voted comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106 "If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely doesn’t work at all." Who, whom?
tomaszs 7y ago
It is a long article without any sources
- G8WyaX 7y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-consider-bill-that-would-allow-orban-to-rule-by-decree https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-con...
  - tomaszs 7y ago
    This is a little bit more truthworthy. But still there is no sources, Just opinions. By sources i mean documents. Legislative documents. They can be interpreted in various ways based on who reads them
throwawaymanbot 7y ago
Orban is anti-western filth. Let the russians take him.
burnaway 7y ago
Also Hungarian here. The article summed up the law under debate correctly. Its a slippery slope that we've seen happening in other countries (Russia, which is a kind of a blueprint for this government in many respects, comes to mind). Carte blanche to do anything they please in the name of Protecting The People, suspending constitutional rights and silencing all dissenting voices, this time with jail sentences. Whenever the Covid situation gets better it's easy to make up a new national emergency with a different threat - immigrants, again, attack from EU, again, or something else. The 60% plus rural voters whose main news source is the captured state media (Russian style, again) won't really mind. Then we can stay in this "emergency doctrine" forever. No wonder why wannabe/actual dictators love crisis... Author makes a good point at the end - it can go another way as well. Let's imagine, what if the country starts to crumble? As pezo1919 pointed out, health/healthcare is in deep trouble. What if tens of thousands die and everyone turns against Orbán? These changes will come very handy as well, won't they? I'm trying to finish this comment real fast before they pass this law and a black car takes me away for spreading f
Maultasche 7y ago
I spent about six weeks traveling in Hungary in the summer of 2000, enjoying the great food and wine and practicing my rudimentary Hungarian skills. At the time the country seemed to be a place with crappy past and a bright future. I even was in Budapest during the celebrations of the 1000 year anniversary of the founding of the Kingdom of Hungary (which was really just the anniversary of the Christianization of the country and the Pope tossing a crown to King Istvan). The fireworks were great and the I stood in the square in front of the Parliament building and watched a then much younger Viktor Orban giving a speech. At the time, I was under the impression that Orban was viewed as a vibrant leader committed to democracy and modernization. Oh, how times have changed. He's now a wannabee dictator, stomping on democracy and free speech, and taking the country on a reverse course back to the darker years of Hungary's past. What the hell happened to you, Viktor? Did you grow to like power too much? You were so promising, but turned out to be so disappointing. Another Mugabe. Now I feel sad when I think of Hungary and the nice people I met there. I also marvel at the inability of the people to learn from their past. Hungarians always seemed very well-informed and knowledgeable of their history.

99 points by nanna 7y ago

sad ://

pezo1919 7y ago

Hungarian here. We are totally fucked. Many people want the gov to make quarantine real but it's not happening yet. The old people (they are mostly Orbán voters) are on the streets. When I look out to the window I rarely see a mask. 10-15% of the people. Elderly people and many others still claim C19 is fake. Orbán already has the whole control of the country, now with that we're going to stay here for a dozens of years. Good bye EU, good bye civilization. I'll leave to a better place as soon C19 will go away in the world - if there will be a chance for that, not sure. Hungarian health is shit. Lombardy has something like 9.3/10 in terms of peoples health, Hungary has 2.2 (higher is better). My estimation is 500k deaths (10 million population) in my country in 3-6 months - based on data from Italy and South Korea plus health data. The worse thing is our sociaty. We don't have. There are mostly poor, stupid people with no ability to even read, understand, etc. I am not kidding. I know it sounds harsh. That's fckin hungarian culture based on our sad history. It's done.

lihaciudaniel 7y ago
Romanian here. We are also totally fucked. [rant] Most of our youth is fucking gone in Diaspora, all we have is old people. Stuff that is happening here is worst since we got rid of communism in '89 everyone is panic buying everyone is in for themselves. Honestly a dictatorship wouldn't be so bad because we need good leaders in these darkest times, crowds are so irrational nowadays. [/rant]
- chimen 7y ago
  Did you live in Romania before '89 to experience dictatorship? Since when dictatorship implies good leadership anyway?
- decebalus1 7y ago
  Salut, fellow (originally) Romanian here. > Honestly a dictatorship wouldn't be so bad because we need good leaders in these darkest times Yeah, no thanks. You're either born after '89 or way before '89 to have this type of thinking.
  - lihaciudaniel 7y ago
    Seems so despite your bio: "holding the means of production" you must love opensource;)
osrec 7y ago
What makes you believe that 5% of your population will be unable to withstand the coronavirus? Seems a little high to me (I am not a doctor, just basing this on what UK government has published around recovery rates).
- jasonv 7y ago
  Why do you ask a question about the second half of a paragraph, wherein the answer to your question is in the first half of said paragraph?
  - osrec 7y ago
    Is it? Nothing in the first part suggests that the older people will die at a higher rate in Hungary compared to elsewhere, should they all contract the virus.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      5% is the number usually passed around in case of a healthcare system over capacity and having to triage people, and that doesn't count people dying because of untreated things other than COVID-19.
      - osrec 7y ago
        I believe it's 5% of those tested; a group which will almost certainly be composed of those more vulnerable. Thus, I don't think it's representative of the entire population.
- grecy 7y ago
  You need to look at countries that have had COVID-19 for a longer time to see the real death rate. Countries like the UK, US, Australia, Canada, etc. are only just spiking on infections, and it takes a while before deaths spike as a result (around a week or two). See this graph to understand it [0] Italy has a 9.25% death rate [1] as of today. [0] https://miro.medium.com/max/9350/1*r-ddYhoUtP_se6x-NOEinA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/9350/1*r-ddYhoUtP_se6x-NOEinA.pn... [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
thephyber 7y ago
On the upside, the “Emperor has no Clothes” governments will be shown for the propagandists they are when COVID rips through the country. It will be remarkably little comfort at the time. Thankfully Trump changed his message after Wall Street and Fox News personality Tucker Carlson called out his political spin. In the end, I fear the virus will community spread everywhere unless the _entire world_ takes it seriously _at the same time_, but I don’t foresee that happening.
- joshstrange 7y ago
  > Thankfully Trump changed his message after Wall Street and Fox News personality Tucker Carlson called out his political spin. Are we watching the same thing? I've watched almost every single press conference and Trump has not "changed his tune" rather he is than continuing to lie, write history, and downplay the virus. Just watch, when his eyes are down he is reading off prepared notes, then he looks up and starts riffing (lying and downplaying). He may be taking it semi-seriously but he is dog-whistling to his base constantly about how it's not his fault and it's not a big deal.
- jariel 7y ago
  No, it doesn't matter because the moment Trump 'changed his tune' all of his followers erased in their minds the history of him denying reality. To them, he was always acting with foresight. You cannot discredit someone who robbed a bank and literally denies it the next day, along with millions of followers who also deny it even having seen the robbery first hand. Your assumption of 'credit' implies some kind of rationality, there isn't. It's just a big personality fight. Whatever Trump does or says is right, by virtue of the fact he said it. FYI - the same could apply to popular characters of other kinds, this not just Trump, he's just a good example. Edit: I should add, I feel this way specifically because I enjoy reading comments from various news sources as a measure of certain kinds of populism, and about 2/3 of the commenters currently on FoxNews are very pro Trump, often hailing is 'early action' etc. on the issue, completely disregarding the fact that only days ago, he was dismissing the issue as a hoax, literally indicating 'we only have a few cases, it will be zero soon' - all the while Wuhan and other places blow out of control. This should be enough to destroy any leaders' credibility. And of course, this is not a left/right/up/down thing, there are leaders of all political stripes who either do such ridiculous things or, who are credible - but still have followers who'll believe their statements over any kind of reality. I think this is more common than not: we believe personalities more than we believe facts.
imjustsaying 7y ago
Hungarian here. Goodbye civilization? Most people can't read? It's done? No my friend, isolation seems to be getting to your head. "When I look out the window, only 10-15% are wearing masks". That's far more than many other places.
- dpc_pw 7y ago
  That top level comment is such a typical somewhat smart central European youngster (now maybe in their 30s, like me) that was heavily brainwashed the whole childhood how UE is soooo much superior and civilized, and the their own culture and people are so inferior because of backwards religion and backwards conservatism. For them, the unelected officials ruling UE is a pinacle of democracy, while lawfully elected politicians at home are dictators, and so on. I was raised in the same environment in Poland, was a subject of the same UE-love brainwashing most of my youth, and have/had plenty of friends with the same view.
  - mpfundstein 7y ago
    I am from Germany. Same here
    - balfirevic 7y ago
      Same what? How are local German culture and EU culture in opposition?
      - thu2111 7y ago
        He's not making any argument about culture. Not even sure what EU culture would be - it's a bureaucracy?
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Well, for someone who left country between yours and OPs (Slovakia), which is in much better shape than Hungary now, and probably +-same as Poland (no hard numbers now), its kind of true. Mind you, EU is no saint but our countries benefit from it massively, and the drawbacks are comparably tiny. There are nice, good and working things back home. But they are hugely overshadowed by amount of things that don't work as they should - social system, healthcare, high criminality, utter pervasive corruption on all levels. We also have huge issues with big roma population that all politicians gave up on long time ago. Nobody cares about them anymore, I'd say they are a ticking bomb. On top of all that, many folks are xenophobic, if not outright racist. You can have wonderful deep kind relationship or encounters with strangers, but people can be proper selfish assholes on a level I haven't seen in the west. Politicians, always the worst scum of the given population, are a bad, corrupt joke through whole spectrum. I could go on for hours. Why... I moved, just like millions others and didn't look back (not EU). Its nice to visit, but that's about it. I can see on most folks back home how not-really-happy they are, kinda OK is the norm.
zpeti 7y ago
Oh god, please. Stop thinking that things are so shit for you - that you are special - specially fucked. Actually, most places in the world are having major issues. Shortages everywhere, people not keeping the quarantines. Do you read UK or Italian news? London Tube was full this morning. Stop calling your own country stupid and poor. It reflects extremely badly on yourself, you don't make yourself look clever, you make yourself look like an unloyal hysterical person.
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  “loyalty to the nation, always; loyalty to the government, when it deserves it. “
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    > "loyalty to the nation, always" No, not even that part.
    - hprotagonist 7y ago
      loyalty requires the obligation of criticism.
tryitnow 7y ago
You know this post is authentically Hungarian because of the pessimism.
101404 7y ago
Hungary has a "very high" HDI (higher is better), a very low GINI (lower is better), and a surprisingly high GDP PPP per capita. At least that's what Wikipedia tells me. You may be a bit too pessimistic.
- dpc_pw 7y ago
  > You may be a bit too pessimistic. They already said they're Hungarian. :D
throwawayspain 7y ago
Spaniard here. Death rates are around 0.6%. Depends on the population pyramid, etc. Forget the detected cases. Focus only on deaths, multiply by the 0.6% rate and you've got the number of infected up to ~17 days ago. From then, exponential growth: doubles every 2 to 4 days, except if contained. The health care system doesn't matter: the growth is exponential; it takes not long for it to crumble, however good it might be. That's happening in Italy (incl. Lombardia) and Spain. What matters how much profilactic material there is (masks, etc) and ventilators; and to prevent the exponential spreading with containment. In Germany (where I leave) I'm yet to see a single mask. At least people are taking containment more seriously than the government. We'll see what happens when we hit 1000 deaths next Sunday.
rv-de 7y ago
But those old orban voters are going to drop dead in masses very soon. So there is hope. Seriously.

jasonv 7y ago

My parents fled Hungary in '56 and landed in the US, on the west coast. I spent a lot of the last decade in Europe, and a lot of my free time in Hungary. Loved it, enjoyed it, thought a future me could retire there. The parallels between US right now, and Hungary right now, are alarming. It's overtly called out in the press... so it's part of the conversation, but we're full circle on what my parents (and grandparents) went through and how a redemptive arc is, or is not, available.

magduf 7y ago

People complain about dictatorships, but the absolute best form of government is actually a dictatorship, because it's efficient and looks out for the interests of the people. Of course, this means it has to be a "benevolent dictatorship". The problem with dictatorships is either your dictator isn't benevolent, or you have a great dictator but then he dies and his son takes over and he's terrible. There's lots of examples in history of excellent dictators/authoritarians: Marcus Aurelius of Rome, and Elizabeth I of England, for example. Of course, with Marcus Aurelius, there was a movie made about what happened there (Gladiator, 2000) when he crappy son took over.

jariel 7y ago
No, your first premise is false - even a 'benevolent dictatorship' is not 'the best thing' for the people in most situations. In certain times of crises, maybe, but otherwise, no.
- curiousmindz 7y ago
  GP gave some good points about benevolent dictatorship. Can you elaborate on why it wouldn't be "the best thing" in general? And ideally weight that against all the other scenarios where it is.
  - jariel 7y ago
    The premise of 'benevolent dictatorship' is absurd to begin with because it's a living contradiction. Politics, power, and hubris are inseparable. Powers exist to benefit and protect themselves, even agencies with the 'best intent' fall into traps of self-delusion and aggrandizement. We saw 100 revolutions in the last century, most of them 'in the name of the people' - and almost all of them failed and did mostly the opposite of that even if there were a 'few wins' here and there. Literacy and some kinds of healthcare increased dramatically in Cuba ... and yet ... we still have Castro Inc.'s totalitarian fist 50 years later. The very authoritarianism of any regime which gives it the power to do something possibly good in the short term is exactly the thing that prevents it from adapting in the long term. Also, authoritarianism tends to limit the scope of influence and authority to a smaller groups, which is not good for many things that require a lot of voices. Creative fields, research, even market economies have lots of actors. If Hungary were willing to give 'temporary powers' to some person who was not Orban, for say 6 months, well then maybe they'd have something, but otherwise, this looks like a power grab Putin style.

cs702 7y ago

From the Wikipedia page on demagogues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue): -- begin quote -- Demagogues usually advocate immediate, forceful action to address a crisis while accusing moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness or disloyalty. Once elected to high executive office, demagogues typically unravel constitutional limits on executive power and attempt to convert their democracy to dictatorship. ... Methods [used by demagogues]: * Scapegoating * Fearmongering * Lying * Emotional oratory and personal charisma * Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty * Promising the impossible * Violence and physical intimidation * Personal insults and ridicule * Vulgarity and outrageous behavior * Folksy posturing * Gross oversimplification * Attacking the news media -- end quote --

lostmsu 7y ago
This post along with this very comment do at least: * fearmongering * Accusing of disloyalty * Personal insult * Gross oversimplification If the media law has a clause about being active only in national emergency, it might be OK (not that I'd vote for it).
Nuzzerino 7y ago
Also quoted on this page: "Even ordinary politicians use some of these techniques from time to time" There's really nothing on here that demonstrates that you can identify or rule out a demagogue by the presence or absence of these methods in use by them. I'm sure many will try though, and many more will nod their heads in approval.
mayankkaizen 7y ago
You have me the exact content I needed to explain the leadership of my country.

vearwhershuh 7y ago

Compare and contrast with the highest voted comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106 "If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely doesn’t work at all." Who, whom?

tomaszs 7y ago

It is a long article without any sources

G8WyaX 7y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-consider-bill-that-would-allow-orban-to-rule-by-decree https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-con...
- tomaszs 7y ago
  This is a little bit more truthworthy. But still there is no sources, Just opinions. By sources i mean documents. Legislative documents. They can be interpreted in various ways based on who reads them

throwawaymanbot 7y ago

Orban is anti-western filth. Let the russians take him.

burnaway 7y ago

Also Hungarian here. The article summed up the law under debate correctly. Its a slippery slope that we've seen happening in other countries (Russia, which is a kind of a blueprint for this government in many respects, comes to mind). Carte blanche to do anything they please in the name of Protecting The People, suspending constitutional rights and silencing all dissenting voices, this time with jail sentences. Whenever the Covid situation gets better it's easy to make up a new national emergency with a different threat - immigrants, again, attack from EU, again, or something else. The 60% plus rural voters whose main news source is the captured state media (Russian style, again) won't really mind. Then we can stay in this "emergency doctrine" forever. No wonder why wannabe/actual dictators love crisis... Author makes a good point at the end - it can go another way as well. Let's imagine, what if the country starts to crumble? As pezo1919 pointed out, health/healthcare is in deep trouble. What if tens of thousands die and everyone turns against Orbán? These changes will come very handy as well, won't they? I'm trying to finish this comment real fast before they pass this law and a black car takes me away for spreading f

Maultasche 7y ago

I spent about six weeks traveling in Hungary in the summer of 2000, enjoying the great food and wine and practicing my rudimentary Hungarian skills. At the time the country seemed to be a place with crappy past and a bright future. I even was in Budapest during the celebrations of the 1000 year anniversary of the founding of the Kingdom of Hungary (which was really just the anniversary of the Christianization of the country and the Pope tossing a crown to King Istvan). The fireworks were great and the I stood in the square in front of the Parliament building and watched a then much younger Viktor Orban giving a speech. At the time, I was under the impression that Orban was viewed as a vibrant leader committed to democracy and modernization. Oh, how times have changed. He's now a wannabee dictator, stomping on democracy and free speech, and taking the country on a reverse course back to the darker years of Hungary's past. What the hell happened to you, Viktor? Did you grow to like power too much? You were so promising, but turned out to be so disappointing. Another Mugabe. Now I feel sad when I think of Hungary and the nice people I met there. I also marvel at the inability of the people to learn from their past. Hungarians always seemed very well-informed and knowledgeable of their history.