5 ms·

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansi

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because it has access to cheap, infinite lines of credit. Our health suffers for it. So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life.

lol768 7y ago
> So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life. What about housing? A mortgage is going to be the only way for a lot of people to ever afford their own home.
- losteric 7y ago
  Well, to question your premise - Why is universal home ownership desirable or necessary?
  - Sileni 7y ago
    It's either (near) universal or communal. Anything in between gives elites so much power over the less advantaged that you see a stratification of society similar to, well, what we're seeing now. Here's a quarantine project for you: build a model that lets you push around the %age of renters vs land owners. Virtually any model that contains a significant number of renters will eventually have one land owner and many renters, unless you see significant economic disasters in the model.
  - to11mtm 7y ago
    At least in the current system, a home is the best hope that for many people if they wish to have an 'asset' that is concrete and tangible. The practicality of it (i.e. basic human need for shelter) also makes it one of the best 'assets' to pass to your children. Remember: unless the house was seriously overvalued, as long as you held onto/maintained your house through the 2008 housing crash, it's still worth more than it was pre crash.
  - tobylane 7y ago
    Because tenants rights are poor? The difference in safety felt between owning and renting is related to perception of tenants rights. I think they (the difference and the rights) vary accordingly worldwide.
    - losteric 7y ago
      What are the shortfalls of tenant rights in your area? and how would you answer the previous question in a world with "ideal" tenant rights?
      - lol768 7y ago
        > How could tenant rights be improved, and how would you answer that question in a world with "ideal" tenant rights? It's difficult isn't it? You need to somehow reconcile the fact that it's not the tenant's home with their desire to treat it like it is. I've had to fight to get basic repairs and redecoration work done. In some of these cases I've still had a battle despite funding them myself! I think something you could probably address is the lack of security with tenancies. In the UK, after the initial fixed period of an AST, it's very easy for either party to terminate the lease. I'd prefer for this to be tipped in favour of the tenant, so that they can be flexible and leave if necessary - but they're not also in danger of homelessness at very short notice.
  - nradov 7y ago
    Because I want to be able to install shelves in the garage or put a new oven in the kitchen without having to negotiate with a landlord.
    - losteric 7y ago
      How many people does your situation apply to? Personally, I prefer having a landlord take care of appliances over the freedom to make my own changes.
      - dx87 7y ago
        Probably a lot. I've never seen an apartment that lets you make any changes beyond putting in your own furniture. No painting walls, no hanging pictures, changing carpets, etc. You're stuck with whatever bargain bin ammenities the landlord picked, unless you feel like packing up and moving. Plus, your rent will probably go up at a similar rate to inflation, whereas a mortgage payment will stay the same as long as you didn't sign up for an adjustable rate mortgage.
      - nradov 7y ago
        Every long-term homeowner I know has done at least that much. Many have done larger home improvement and remodeling projects.
        losteric 7y ago
        Yes, I'd assume home owners modify their house... but that doesn't really answer the question.
        nradov 7y ago
        The US home ownership rate is 64%. So to answer your original question, that situation applies to nearly 64% of people.
- eyegor 7y ago
  Or education? Especially in the US, it's unreasonable to pay for most universities without loans.
gwright 7y ago
Drawing conclusions from this temporary pause in economic activity seems premature.
Sileni 7y ago
>Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. Public transport has never been effective in most of the US. Hell, I'd have to cross an interstate on foot in order to reach work. How many weeks do you estimate it'd take me to get killed? Should I be taking that risk because some politician decided my life was less valuable than their golfing buddy getting to work 5 minutes quicker?
- paulryanrogers 7y ago
  > A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. It doesn't have to stay this way. Smaller cities and towns can invest in public transportation. Activities which must be in person could be decentralized to more local sites.
  - grej 7y ago
    It seems likely there will be a lot less interest in public transit investment after the pandemic. Not more.
    - zachkatz 7y ago
      I think you're probably right. It'll be cycling's time to shine.
  - coryrc 7y ago
    Seattle/King County metro diesel buses gets 50 passenger-miles per gallon of diesel. Better than average, but not enough for preventing climate change. They're also still running nearly all buses empty these past weeks, so that's 0 mpg.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      Buses don't have to run on diesel
twblalock 7y ago
I draw the opposite conclusion -- public transit makes pandemics worse and everyone who owns a car is very happy they have one.

lol768 7y ago

> So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life. What about housing? A mortgage is going to be the only way for a lot of people to ever afford their own home.

losteric 7y ago
Well, to question your premise - Why is universal home ownership desirable or necessary?
- Sileni 7y ago
  It's either (near) universal or communal. Anything in between gives elites so much power over the less advantaged that you see a stratification of society similar to, well, what we're seeing now. Here's a quarantine project for you: build a model that lets you push around the %age of renters vs land owners. Virtually any model that contains a significant number of renters will eventually have one land owner and many renters, unless you see significant economic disasters in the model.
- to11mtm 7y ago
  At least in the current system, a home is the best hope that for many people if they wish to have an 'asset' that is concrete and tangible. The practicality of it (i.e. basic human need for shelter) also makes it one of the best 'assets' to pass to your children. Remember: unless the house was seriously overvalued, as long as you held onto/maintained your house through the 2008 housing crash, it's still worth more than it was pre crash.
- tobylane 7y ago
  Because tenants rights are poor? The difference in safety felt between owning and renting is related to perception of tenants rights. I think they (the difference and the rights) vary accordingly worldwide.
  - losteric 7y ago
    What are the shortfalls of tenant rights in your area? and how would you answer the previous question in a world with "ideal" tenant rights?
    - lol768 7y ago
      > How could tenant rights be improved, and how would you answer that question in a world with "ideal" tenant rights? It's difficult isn't it? You need to somehow reconcile the fact that it's not the tenant's home with their desire to treat it like it is. I've had to fight to get basic repairs and redecoration work done. In some of these cases I've still had a battle despite funding them myself! I think something you could probably address is the lack of security with tenancies. In the UK, after the initial fixed period of an AST, it's very easy for either party to terminate the lease. I'd prefer for this to be tipped in favour of the tenant, so that they can be flexible and leave if necessary - but they're not also in danger of homelessness at very short notice.
- nradov 7y ago
  Because I want to be able to install shelves in the garage or put a new oven in the kitchen without having to negotiate with a landlord.
  - losteric 7y ago
    How many people does your situation apply to? Personally, I prefer having a landlord take care of appliances over the freedom to make my own changes.
    - dx87 7y ago
      Probably a lot. I've never seen an apartment that lets you make any changes beyond putting in your own furniture. No painting walls, no hanging pictures, changing carpets, etc. You're stuck with whatever bargain bin ammenities the landlord picked, unless you feel like packing up and moving. Plus, your rent will probably go up at a similar rate to inflation, whereas a mortgage payment will stay the same as long as you didn't sign up for an adjustable rate mortgage.
    - nradov 7y ago
      Every long-term homeowner I know has done at least that much. Many have done larger home improvement and remodeling projects.
      - losteric 7y ago
        Yes, I'd assume home owners modify their house... but that doesn't really answer the question.
        nradov 7y ago
        The US home ownership rate is 64%. So to answer your original question, that situation applies to nearly 64% of people.
eyegor 7y ago
Or education? Especially in the US, it's unreasonable to pay for most universities without loans.

gwright 7y ago

Drawing conclusions from this temporary pause in economic activity seems premature.

Sileni 7y ago

>Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. Public transport has never been effective in most of the US. Hell, I'd have to cross an interstate on foot in order to reach work. How many weeks do you estimate it'd take me to get killed? Should I be taking that risk because some politician decided my life was less valuable than their golfing buddy getting to work 5 minutes quicker?

paulryanrogers 7y ago
> A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. It doesn't have to stay this way. Smaller cities and towns can invest in public transportation. Activities which must be in person could be decentralized to more local sites.
- grej 7y ago
  It seems likely there will be a lot less interest in public transit investment after the pandemic. Not more.
  - zachkatz 7y ago
    I think you're probably right. It'll be cycling's time to shine.
- coryrc 7y ago
  Seattle/King County metro diesel buses gets 50 passenger-miles per gallon of diesel. Better than average, but not enough for preventing climate change. They're also still running nearly all buses empty these past weeks, so that's 0 mpg.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    Buses don't have to run on diesel

twblalock 7y ago

I draw the opposite conclusion -- public transit makes pandemics worse and everyone who owns a car is very happy they have one.