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Can we change the submitted post? I didn't see any sources quoted on that Tweet, just an animation. Side note: please stop submitting or otherwise citing "Twitt

by cletus 7y ago

Can we change the submitted post? I didn't see any sources quoted on that Tweet, just an animation. Side note: please stop submitting or otherwise citing "Twitter threads". They're terrible. But there does seem to be some basis for this eg [1] [2]. And I can believe it. I've long since held the opinion that Airbnb is a cancer on society. While Uber allows you to get value from a vehicle you may already own (at the cost of wear and tear, mind you) and there are many, particularly those in the US, who seem to hold this view that "it's my home, I can do what I want with it", the reality is that neighbours of that Airbnb bear the externalities and the cost of your listing and it's not easy for most people to up and move. Another way of putting this is that it is a tragedy of the commons as Airbnb "hosts" extract value from a community that bears the cost with little choice in the matter. This lazy (and typically selfish) twisted version of "free market" thinking quickly erodes when, for example, I propose using my house that's next to yours as a tannery or a toxic waste storage site. My only complaint about jurisdictions trying to crack down on this is that their efforts have been too slow and anaemic. NYC is plagued with what are essentially illegal hotels. There are a reason that hotels exist in the current form and place. It's for the safety of guests (eg compliance with fire codes) and the benefit of residents (ie zoning). [1]: https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/homes-for-rent-climb-as-airbnb-market-tumbles-39063281.html https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/homes-for-... [2]: https://www.balls.ie/the-rewind-news/something-interesting-happening-dublin-rental-market-428463 https://www.balls.ie/the-rewind-news/something-interesting-h...

tdhz77 7y ago
Get off my lawn!
secondbreakfast 7y ago
There are negative externalities to Uber too, such as Traffic and pollution.
- koolba 7y ago
  That’s not so clear cut. The alternative to Uber is not just staying home or riding a bike, at times it’s driving your own car and circling for 30 minutes trying to find a parking spot.
  - Retric 7y ago
    I have literally never circled for 30 minutes looking for a parking spot. In every city I have been to people people use a parking garages of one type or another. Where exactly is circling like this common?
    - dzamie 7y ago
      Where it's $4-6 for a few hours if you can find a spot, but a flat $20+ for a parking garage after the first half hour. So, Baltimore, DC, stuff like that.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - tetromino_ 7y ago
      Many NYC outer borough neighborhoods can be like that; there might not be any garages - or maybe there's only 1-2 which are always full. For example, in Queens, think of Jackson Heights, Flushing Main Street, or parts of Jamaica. I can definitely see spending 30 minutes looking for a parking spot in Jackson Heights on a busy evening if you aren't too familiar with driving in the area.
      - Retric 7y ago
        That’s quite localized in term of location and time of day. Comparing the number of cars in NYC/DC/etc garages vs on street parking people are still mostly using company provided / reimbursed the garages down town. So, while some people in some areas may spend time circling, across all trips average circling time is minimal.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Free markets are a good thing. We can see the prevention of a truly free market through onerous zoning policies that prevent new housing starts in high-demand areas. Preventing people from building, or hosting short-term housing, is all impedance on free markets and their distortionary effects are worse than a VRBO guest that forgets to move the trash can to the end of the driveway. To counter your point, it's equally possible can have a long-term terrible neighbor -- maybe they are loud, or don't maintain their property and it's lowering your property value, and there isn't much you can do about it.
- amelius 7y ago
  > Free markets are a good thing. Out of curiosity, what do you think of net neutrality?
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  > Free markets are a good thing. And yet a free market has never existed.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    And look what's happened to the housing market. Look at homeownership rates for 25-35's now vs. 40 years ago. There are some issues.
    - gedy 7y ago
      Yes, but a lot of that is delaying marriage and having children. Some part of that is economic, some part is choice/culture.
      - jachee 7y ago
        And likely the one (the economics of education and health costs, largely) driving the other.
      - dnautics 7y ago
        A lot of it is the fed lowering rates which increases the returns to existing capital and drives prices upwards. It's almost like the older generation is taking out a mortgage on the future of the younger generation.... Oh wait. No, that's exactly what it is!
bradleyjg 7y ago
> NYC is plagued with what are essentially illegal hotels. There’s a reason my building is currently half full, and it isn’t because everyone is out of town. If there’s any silver lining to this whole terrible pandemic maybe all the crooked rent-to-airbnb people will go bankrupt.
golergka 7y ago
> the reality is that neighbours of that Airbnb bear the externalities What toxic waste, exactly, do Airbnb listing dump on their neighbours? Professional Airbnb investors buy up whole properties, renovate them, run them as a hotel with regular cleaning and services provided. Their shot-term residents use the same amout of public transit, water and utilities services as long-term renters next door. The only real inconvenience is that it's driving property prices up - but that's not an externality. That's just a reality of a market where some type of customers agree to pay a higher price for something, and it's price goes up for everybody. I don't see any reason why market should be artificially tilted towards long-term renters as opposed to short-term.
- kelnos 7y ago
  The issue is that of trust; if you have a full-time neighbor (renting or owning), you generally trust that they will respect the building/neighborhood, and over time will grow to trust them as people. They're more accountable. When you have random people flowing in and out every few days, that trust is not there. For example, Airbnb guests won't go out of their way to be sure to honor quiet hours... why bother if they're just there for a few days and don't have to deal with the neighbors on an ongoing basis? I absolutely love using Airbnb and prefer it over hotels in nearly every place I visit, but I won't pretend it's somehow good for the neighborhood or neighbors.
  - golergka 7y ago
    It's hard for me to respond to this, because personally, in I don't think I've ever met a single neighbour and never had "trust" to any of them - and if there was a noise above a certain level, I just called the police to deal with it instead of going out of the apartment myself. "Trusting them as people" even sounds weird because I don't even know who those people are. I guess it's a cultural thing.
- bradleyjg 7y ago
  > Professional Airbnb investors buy up whole properties Not in NYC. Here they violate both the law and leases/condo rules to Airbnb units they bought or rented under false pretenses. Airbnb knows this and doesn’t care. It’s not about the free market, it’s just another swindle.
14 7y ago
I am unsure what to think about your free market comment. I think you should be able to do what you want in your own home as long as it is within the bylaws and zoning laws of your area. My property was bought as agricultural zoning. It means I can have pigs, chickens, cows, all sorts of things residential properties can not do. My neighbor is residential. I bought my property agricultural so I could potentially do all those things. When my neighbor bought his property if he was informed he would look at the zoning in the neighborhood and factor that into his purchase just like anyone else would. If he doesn't want a pig farm in his neighborhood he should not move next to an agricultural property because that is always a possibility. If you are zoned for a tannery why shouldn't you be able to do it they have to go somewhere?
- jbay808 7y ago
  I think the issue comes up when someone proposes a zoning bylaw that prohibits AirBnB and other short term rentals. Objections to this might hinge on the "it's my property, I should be able to do what I want" thinking.
- cletus 7y ago
  The issue is how pro-Airbnb people rationalize it with trivially debunked arguments about "free markets" and "it's my house, I can do what I want". Your case is different. Zoning allows agricultural where you are. Really no one has any cause to complain about that. As an aside, people do complain about this sort of thing. For example, people will move to where an airport is proposed to be (eg Badgerys Creek, Sydney) or where an existing airport is (eg LAX) and then complain about the potential or actual noise to get restrictions on flights (or on building it at all). I don't have any time for these shenanigans.
clairity 7y ago
> "This lazy (and typically selfish) twisted version of "free market" thinking quickly erodes when, for example, I propose using my house that's next to yours as a tannery or a toxic waste storage site." i'm down for a good "free market" critique, but this veers hyperbolically into nimbyism. everyone agrees that a tannery or toxic waste dump is inappropriate near residences. but having people stay, eat, shower, and sleep in a home is literally what houses are designed for. if you don't own the home, you don't get to choose who stays there (obviously if the renters are breaking the law, that's a problem, and you can report them to the police). i'm also super-sympathetic to the need for (affordable) housing in most cities, but banning airbnb has a relatively negligible effect on that ginormous problem.
- cletus 7y ago
  > everyone agrees that a tannery or toxic waste dump is inappropriate near residences I think you'll find that's trivially untrue. It's fair to say the vast majority of people agree or even almost everyone. But to find one counterexample? I bet I could do that. My point here is that the argument of "it's my home I can do what I want" is fundamentally flawed and all it takes is a trivial extreme case to debunk it. So when you move on to what's allowed and what isn't, what's good for the community, what isn't and so on, which is essentially what zoning is. > but having people stay, eat, shower, and sleep in a home is literally what houses are designed for So I'm supportive of people hosting other people in their homes, which, incidentally, NYC allows (as one example). Why? Because then the host is invested in that community and can police bad behaviour. When hosts aren't present, they have no such incentive. In years passed, having long and short term boarders was commonplace. Many cities in the post-WWII era however essentially dismantled boarding houses and SROs (which were once where a significant number of people lived) and in some cases outlawed multi-family residences. There are extreme examples of what can happen in an Airbnb [1] [2] [3]. There are countless stories of guests being stranded when hosts canceled at the last minute and scams such as bait-and-switch. [1]: https://10daily.com.au/shows/10-news-first/a190520wykmx/police-dismantle-drug-lab-inside-luxury-airbnb-rental-20190520 https://10daily.com.au/shows/10-news-first/a190520wykmx/poli... [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-03/airbnb-bans-party-houses-after-orinda-halloween-shooting/11667250 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-03/airbnb-bans-party-hou... [3]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7818881/Airbnb-host-jailed-raping-guest-threatened-post-bad-review-didnt-drink-him.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7818881/Airbnb-host...

by cletus 7y ago

tdhz77 7y ago

Get off my lawn!

secondbreakfast 7y ago

There are negative externalities to Uber too, such as Traffic and pollution.

koolba 7y ago
That’s not so clear cut. The alternative to Uber is not just staying home or riding a bike, at times it’s driving your own car and circling for 30 minutes trying to find a parking spot.
- Retric 7y ago
  I have literally never circled for 30 minutes looking for a parking spot. In every city I have been to people people use a parking garages of one type or another. Where exactly is circling like this common?
  - dzamie 7y ago
    Where it's $4-6 for a few hours if you can find a spot, but a flat $20+ for a parking garage after the first half hour. So, Baltimore, DC, stuff like that.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - tetromino_ 7y ago
    Many NYC outer borough neighborhoods can be like that; there might not be any garages - or maybe there's only 1-2 which are always full. For example, in Queens, think of Jackson Heights, Flushing Main Street, or parts of Jamaica. I can definitely see spending 30 minutes looking for a parking spot in Jackson Heights on a busy evening if you aren't too familiar with driving in the area.
    - Retric 7y ago
      That’s quite localized in term of location and time of day. Comparing the number of cars in NYC/DC/etc garages vs on street parking people are still mostly using company provided / reimbursed the garages down town. So, while some people in some areas may spend time circling, across all trips average circling time is minimal.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Free markets are a good thing. We can see the prevention of a truly free market through onerous zoning policies that prevent new housing starts in high-demand areas. Preventing people from building, or hosting short-term housing, is all impedance on free markets and their distortionary effects are worse than a VRBO guest that forgets to move the trash can to the end of the driveway. To counter your point, it's equally possible can have a long-term terrible neighbor -- maybe they are loud, or don't maintain their property and it's lowering your property value, and there isn't much you can do about it.

amelius 7y ago
> Free markets are a good thing. Out of curiosity, what do you think of net neutrality?
heavyset_go 7y ago
> Free markets are a good thing. And yet a free market has never existed.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  And look what's happened to the housing market. Look at homeownership rates for 25-35's now vs. 40 years ago. There are some issues.
  - gedy 7y ago
    Yes, but a lot of that is delaying marriage and having children. Some part of that is economic, some part is choice/culture.
    - jachee 7y ago
      And likely the one (the economics of education and health costs, largely) driving the other.
    - dnautics 7y ago
      A lot of it is the fed lowering rates which increases the returns to existing capital and drives prices upwards. It's almost like the older generation is taking out a mortgage on the future of the younger generation.... Oh wait. No, that's exactly what it is!

bradleyjg 7y ago

> NYC is plagued with what are essentially illegal hotels. There’s a reason my building is currently half full, and it isn’t because everyone is out of town. If there’s any silver lining to this whole terrible pandemic maybe all the crooked rent-to-airbnb people will go bankrupt.

golergka 7y ago

> the reality is that neighbours of that Airbnb bear the externalities What toxic waste, exactly, do Airbnb listing dump on their neighbours? Professional Airbnb investors buy up whole properties, renovate them, run them as a hotel with regular cleaning and services provided. Their shot-term residents use the same amout of public transit, water and utilities services as long-term renters next door. The only real inconvenience is that it's driving property prices up - but that's not an externality. That's just a reality of a market where some type of customers agree to pay a higher price for something, and it's price goes up for everybody. I don't see any reason why market should be artificially tilted towards long-term renters as opposed to short-term.

kelnos 7y ago
The issue is that of trust; if you have a full-time neighbor (renting or owning), you generally trust that they will respect the building/neighborhood, and over time will grow to trust them as people. They're more accountable. When you have random people flowing in and out every few days, that trust is not there. For example, Airbnb guests won't go out of their way to be sure to honor quiet hours... why bother if they're just there for a few days and don't have to deal with the neighbors on an ongoing basis? I absolutely love using Airbnb and prefer it over hotels in nearly every place I visit, but I won't pretend it's somehow good for the neighborhood or neighbors.
- golergka 7y ago
  It's hard for me to respond to this, because personally, in I don't think I've ever met a single neighbour and never had "trust" to any of them - and if there was a noise above a certain level, I just called the police to deal with it instead of going out of the apartment myself. "Trusting them as people" even sounds weird because I don't even know who those people are. I guess it's a cultural thing.
bradleyjg 7y ago
> Professional Airbnb investors buy up whole properties Not in NYC. Here they violate both the law and leases/condo rules to Airbnb units they bought or rented under false pretenses. Airbnb knows this and doesn’t care. It’s not about the free market, it’s just another swindle.

14 7y ago

I am unsure what to think about your free market comment. I think you should be able to do what you want in your own home as long as it is within the bylaws and zoning laws of your area. My property was bought as agricultural zoning. It means I can have pigs, chickens, cows, all sorts of things residential properties can not do. My neighbor is residential. I bought my property agricultural so I could potentially do all those things. When my neighbor bought his property if he was informed he would look at the zoning in the neighborhood and factor that into his purchase just like anyone else would. If he doesn't want a pig farm in his neighborhood he should not move next to an agricultural property because that is always a possibility. If you are zoned for a tannery why shouldn't you be able to do it they have to go somewhere?

jbay808 7y ago
I think the issue comes up when someone proposes a zoning bylaw that prohibits AirBnB and other short term rentals. Objections to this might hinge on the "it's my property, I should be able to do what I want" thinking.
cletus 7y ago
The issue is how pro-Airbnb people rationalize it with trivially debunked arguments about "free markets" and "it's my house, I can do what I want". Your case is different. Zoning allows agricultural where you are. Really no one has any cause to complain about that. As an aside, people do complain about this sort of thing. For example, people will move to where an airport is proposed to be (eg Badgerys Creek, Sydney) or where an existing airport is (eg LAX) and then complain about the potential or actual noise to get restrictions on flights (or on building it at all). I don't have any time for these shenanigans.

clairity 7y ago

> "This lazy (and typically selfish) twisted version of "free market" thinking quickly erodes when, for example, I propose using my house that's next to yours as a tannery or a toxic waste storage site." i'm down for a good "free market" critique, but this veers hyperbolically into nimbyism. everyone agrees that a tannery or toxic waste dump is inappropriate near residences. but having people stay, eat, shower, and sleep in a home is literally what houses are designed for. if you don't own the home, you don't get to choose who stays there (obviously if the renters are breaking the law, that's a problem, and you can report them to the police). i'm also super-sympathetic to the need for (affordable) housing in most cities, but banning airbnb has a relatively negligible effect on that ginormous problem.

cletus 7y ago
> everyone agrees that a tannery or toxic waste dump is inappropriate near residences I think you'll find that's trivially untrue. It's fair to say the vast majority of people agree or even almost everyone. But to find one counterexample? I bet I could do that. My point here is that the argument of "it's my home I can do what I want" is fundamentally flawed and all it takes is a trivial extreme case to debunk it. So when you move on to what's allowed and what isn't, what's good for the community, what isn't and so on, which is essentially what zoning is. > but having people stay, eat, shower, and sleep in a home is literally what houses are designed for So I'm supportive of people hosting other people in their homes, which, incidentally, NYC allows (as one example). Why? Because then the host is invested in that community and can police bad behaviour. When hosts aren't present, they have no such incentive. In years passed, having long and short term boarders was commonplace. Many cities in the post-WWII era however essentially dismantled boarding houses and SROs (which were once where a significant number of people lived) and in some cases outlawed multi-family residences. There are extreme examples of what can happen in an Airbnb [1] [2] [3]. There are countless stories of guests being stranded when hosts canceled at the last minute and scams such as bait-and-switch. [1]: https://10daily.com.au/shows/10-news-first/a190520wykmx/police-dismantle-drug-lab-inside-luxury-airbnb-rental-20190520 https://10daily.com.au/shows/10-news-first/a190520wykmx/poli... [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-03/airbnb-bans-party-houses-after-orinda-halloween-shooting/11667250 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-03/airbnb-bans-party-hou... [3]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7818881/Airbnb-host-jailed-raping-guest-threatened-post-bad-review-didnt-drink-him.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7818881/Airbnb-host...