6 ms·

It's not about abstract "economic system". Let me put it in simple word: you'll loose your job. Your friends and family will loose their jobs. As a result, wh

by kjksf 7y ago

It's not about abstract "economic system". Let me put it in simple word: you'll loose your job. Your friends and family will loose their jobs. As a result, when your savings run out, you'll loose your appartement. And so will your friends and family. You won't be able to afford food without government assistance. And even if shutdown lasts only 30 days, it'll wreck the economy for a long time. Once a restaurant defaults and closes, it won't just re-open. Those jobs will be lost for a long time. Now, maybe you're one of the lucky ones with enough savings to ride this out and this won't affect you. But it'll affect millions of others.

danharaj 7y ago
You cannot imagine an economic system where the default state of a human being is to become destitute?
- WalterBright 7y ago
  People are going to be destitute if nobody is producing goods and services. Money is worthless if there's nothing to buy.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - danharaj 7y ago
    I think one thing that this pandemic is teaching us is that most people's jobs do jack shit to maintain the basic needs of society, and the ones with important jobs are often paid the least.
    - chii 7y ago
      > the ones with important jobs are often paid the least. that's the wrong way to think about it, and also a misunderstanding of economics. If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid, there won't be enough money for very many teachers. You'd find it hard to afford a teacher for your kids, let alone free education. A doctor, back in the middle ages, is only affordable to the nobility. These days, doctors are still quite highly paid (too high imho), and that is one reason why medical services are expensive. Imagine if you associate the "importance" of a resource with its price. Water would cost more than diamonds and gold! Water is needed for sustaining life - you die without it. Therefore, in theory, it's so important that you end up paying infinity amount of money to have it, under your system! The fact that we have water so cheap (literally 0.000001 cent per cup), is a good outcome. Everybody can afford water.
      - danharaj 7y ago
        You literally cannot imagine an alternative to capitalism.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        No need to imagine it. There are plenty of history books documenting life under those alternatives. No thanks.
      - 6510 7y ago
        CEO of what? Bullshit inc? > If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid You are thinking about it wrongly. We should pay the CEO the same as the teacher. Managing a bunch of adults can't possibly be harder than teaching children. Education is an actual investment. Bullshit inc not so much.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        The beauty of capitalism is "we" don't decide CEO pay. The owners of the company do, and it's paid out of the owners' pocket. Anyone is free to start a corporation, name a CEO, and pay him whatever they want to (from their money). They can even name themselves CEO!
        sangnoir 7y ago
        > The owners of the company do, and it's paid out of the owners' pocket. This is not true for publicly traded companies - where the board (consisting mostly executives at other companies) determines compensation on behalf of the owners
        WalterBright 7y ago
        The board members operate only at the pleasure of the shareholders, so the shareholders ultimately determine CEO pay and are the ones who are paying it. Shareholders can (and often do) sell their stock the moment they don't like what the board and CEO are doing.
fzeroracer 7y ago
All of those are the result of the horrible 'economic system' we find ourselves in. People lose their apartments when they lose their jobs because we have few safety nets. And for small businesses we're demonstrating how little it takes for something to completely destroy them. If humanity can't react appropriately to pandemics like this, then how can we expect to survive in the eventuality that something even worse comes along? And any economic system that gets crushed by this proves that it simply wasn't prepared and needs to be replaced, lest it cause even more damage to individuals.
zouhair 7y ago
Why do we need jobs to survive? That alone is an insane system. We desperately need to separate work activity and survivability. Even without this pandemic, we live in a World where there is enough shelter, food and drugs for everyone but we still have homeless people, people starving or at the least malnourished and people dying in a rich country because they have to ration fucking insulin. This economic system is not working at all. People die every die directly because of this system[0]. This pandemic just brings it to light. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence
- syshum 7y ago
  Yep, this situation is a socialist wet dream Of course socialism is a failed economic model but hey maybe this time it will work /s
  - zouhair 7y ago
    How is it a failed system? I'd say people cannot afford insulin is proof enough that Capitalism is a failed system. Just go ask Argentina[0], collapsing months after IMF was praising the "good" work Argentina was doing and how a good Capitalist country it has become[1]. This pandemic just made most people feel what the lives of billions is like all year long under Capitalism. And your dismissive comment is just shameful and disgusting. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%932002_Argentine_great_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%932002_Argentine_gr... [1]: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/03/pou.htm https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/03/pou.htm
    - syshum 7y ago
      >>How is it a failed system? ohh I dont know, the millions upon millions that have died in starvation due to socialism over the many decades that it has been tried but those where not "real socialism" right.... Pointing to one good that some people can not afford (the reason is largely due to government control not capitalism BTW) does not in any way "prove capitalism failed" it is true that sometimes with capitalism you will get breadlines, but with socialism sometimes you get bread
6510 7y ago
We don't need restaurants. If you cook your own food the empployees can find a useful job. Until they do we can sustain them just like we could sustain them while doing useless work.

by kjksf 7y ago

danharaj 7y ago

You cannot imagine an economic system where the default state of a human being is to become destitute?

WalterBright 7y ago
People are going to be destitute if nobody is producing goods and services. Money is worthless if there's nothing to buy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- danharaj 7y ago
  I think one thing that this pandemic is teaching us is that most people's jobs do jack shit to maintain the basic needs of society, and the ones with important jobs are often paid the least.
  - chii 7y ago
    > the ones with important jobs are often paid the least. that's the wrong way to think about it, and also a misunderstanding of economics. If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid, there won't be enough money for very many teachers. You'd find it hard to afford a teacher for your kids, let alone free education. A doctor, back in the middle ages, is only affordable to the nobility. These days, doctors are still quite highly paid (too high imho), and that is one reason why medical services are expensive. Imagine if you associate the "importance" of a resource with its price. Water would cost more than diamonds and gold! Water is needed for sustaining life - you die without it. Therefore, in theory, it's so important that you end up paying infinity amount of money to have it, under your system! The fact that we have water so cheap (literally 0.000001 cent per cup), is a good outcome. Everybody can afford water.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      You literally cannot imagine an alternative to capitalism.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        No need to imagine it. There are plenty of history books documenting life under those alternatives. No thanks.
    - 6510 7y ago
      CEO of what? Bullshit inc? > If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid You are thinking about it wrongly. We should pay the CEO the same as the teacher. Managing a bunch of adults can't possibly be harder than teaching children. Education is an actual investment. Bullshit inc not so much.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        The beauty of capitalism is "we" don't decide CEO pay. The owners of the company do, and it's paid out of the owners' pocket. Anyone is free to start a corporation, name a CEO, and pay him whatever they want to (from their money). They can even name themselves CEO!
        sangnoir 7y ago
        > The owners of the company do, and it's paid out of the owners' pocket. This is not true for publicly traded companies - where the board (consisting mostly executives at other companies) determines compensation on behalf of the owners
        WalterBright 7y ago
        The board members operate only at the pleasure of the shareholders, so the shareholders ultimately determine CEO pay and are the ones who are paying it. Shareholders can (and often do) sell their stock the moment they don't like what the board and CEO are doing.

fzeroracer 7y ago

All of those are the result of the horrible 'economic system' we find ourselves in. People lose their apartments when they lose their jobs because we have few safety nets. And for small businesses we're demonstrating how little it takes for something to completely destroy them. If humanity can't react appropriately to pandemics like this, then how can we expect to survive in the eventuality that something even worse comes along? And any economic system that gets crushed by this proves that it simply wasn't prepared and needs to be replaced, lest it cause even more damage to individuals.

zouhair 7y ago

Why do we need jobs to survive? That alone is an insane system. We desperately need to separate work activity and survivability. Even without this pandemic, we live in a World where there is enough shelter, food and drugs for everyone but we still have homeless people, people starving or at the least malnourished and people dying in a rich country because they have to ration fucking insulin. This economic system is not working at all. People die every die directly because of this system[0]. This pandemic just brings it to light. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence

syshum 7y ago
Yep, this situation is a socialist wet dream Of course socialism is a failed economic model but hey maybe this time it will work /s
- zouhair 7y ago
  How is it a failed system? I'd say people cannot afford insulin is proof enough that Capitalism is a failed system. Just go ask Argentina[0], collapsing months after IMF was praising the "good" work Argentina was doing and how a good Capitalist country it has become[1]. This pandemic just made most people feel what the lives of billions is like all year long under Capitalism. And your dismissive comment is just shameful and disgusting. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%932002_Argentine_great_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%932002_Argentine_gr... [1]: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/03/pou.htm https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/03/pou.htm
  - syshum 7y ago
    >>How is it a failed system? ohh I dont know, the millions upon millions that have died in starvation due to socialism over the many decades that it has been tried but those where not "real socialism" right.... Pointing to one good that some people can not afford (the reason is largely due to government control not capitalism BTW) does not in any way "prove capitalism failed" it is true that sometimes with capitalism you will get breadlines, but with socialism sometimes you get bread

6510 7y ago

We don't need restaurants. If you cook your own food the empployees can find a useful job. Until they do we can sustain them just like we could sustain them while doing useless work.