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> It simply isn't possible to shut down the economy and then pay people, businesses to sit idle for an undetermined amount of time. Why not? This is a matter

> It simply isn't possible to shut down the economy and then pay people, businesses to sit idle for an undetermined amount of time. Why not? This is a matter of survival. If the economic system breaks because of one pandemic that will last less than a year maybe that economic system needs to die and be replaced by something more solid and useful for most.

zaroth 7y ago
“If the economic system breaks...” No, this is people breaking. Peoples lives and livelihoods break due to this kind of economic and social strain. And the quarantine effects everyone severely, not just 14% of people.
JoshuaDavid 7y ago
> If the economic system breaks because of one pandemic that will last less than a year maybe that economic system needs to die and be replaced by something more solid and useful for most. Out of curiosity, why do you think it's likely that something more solid and useful to most is likely to come out of an economic collapse? Economic collapses have happened before - are there any instances of a solid and useful system coming out of them (maybe the new deal after the great depression? That one is arguable though).
- ramblenode 7y ago
  French Revolution? Arguably the Russian Revolution if you accept the USSR as a step up from feudalism.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > French Revolution? Didn't even last a decade until they got themselves an emperor. > Arguably the Russian Revolution if you accept the USSR as a step up from feudalism. Considering that the USSR killed orders of magnitude more of its own people than feudalism under the Czars ever did, I'm going to vote "no" on this one.
    - vkou 7y ago
      It also brought an unprecedented amount of economic development to what was an incredibly backwards country. Not that it's a model to imitate. Although some folks in this thread sound rather ready to sacrifice millions of people, for the sake of keeping the economy limping along...
      - PedroBatista 7y ago
        > Although some folks in this thread sound rather ready to sacrifice millions of people, for the sake of keeping the economy limping along... That’s because they believe they are young and would fight off the virus with no problem. Change one of those variables and they will change their tune.
        cc81 7y ago
        I can understand that it is prudent to take a worst case scenario here but it depends on how widespread this thing already is without us knowing it. So Sweden has right now 1,639 confirmed cases with 16 deaths so far. There are some young people treated in critical care but so far it has been older people who has passed away, often with other diseases as well. Sweden currently only tests older people, people with severe symptoms, healthcare workers and similar personal and those who can work from home these days and travel is discouraged. One expert estimated that we have around 100k infected in total right now and discussed that some things like shutting down schools for younger kids will have a large effect on society but not do that much on the spread of the virus. Instead you should focus on protecting vulnerable groups, stay home if you feel any symptoms of cold etc. 100k out of 10 million population would fit roughly with Iceland who did random sampling and found 1% of their population affected. Of course he acknowledged that there is no way to know and taking extreme measures are better than taking too small but emotional/political reactions vs practical is really a discussion to be had.
      - xyzzyz 7y ago
        Immediate aftermath of October Revolution was widespread death and famine. It was so bad that the communists introduced market capitalism again, called New Economic Policy.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Perhaps it's rare due to man's tendency toward corruption. Are there reasons you see why a more robust cannot be developed? I suspect HN could easily come up with a substantial list of improvements. Limiting stock buybacks seems like a good place to start.
- zouhair 7y ago
  Imagine if we had a system where you don't have to pay for any basic necessities, from shelter to food to healthcare to education. We all work in the system, some would make more than others but even those who work the least or not at all would not be left behind. So if you make more you can enjoy more "stuff" and gadgets and if you make less you are still stress free about life. Would we have $1000 phones or shopping shelves filled with hundred of fake choices? Most likely not but at least we won't have people rationing insulin or people living in the street of the richest city in the richest country. We live in a world with so much production and people spend their time worrying about surviving and getting ahead instead of relaxing and making the world a better place.
buboard 7y ago
this assumes the existence of magical economic systems with infinite reserves in other planets. The economy is people, its a dynamic system, it doesn't actually have reserves
kjksf 7y ago
It's not about abstract "economic system". Let me put it in simple word: you'll loose your job. Your friends and family will loose their jobs. As a result, when your savings run out, you'll loose your appartement. And so will your friends and family. You won't be able to afford food without government assistance. And even if shutdown lasts only 30 days, it'll wreck the economy for a long time. Once a restaurant defaults and closes, it won't just re-open. Those jobs will be lost for a long time. Now, maybe you're one of the lucky ones with enough savings to ride this out and this won't affect you. But it'll affect millions of others.
- danharaj 7y ago
  You cannot imagine an economic system where the default state of a human being is to become destitute?
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    People are going to be destitute if nobody is producing goods and services. Money is worthless if there's nothing to buy.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - danharaj 7y ago
      I think one thing that this pandemic is teaching us is that most people's jobs do jack shit to maintain the basic needs of society, and the ones with important jobs are often paid the least.
      - chii 7y ago
        > the ones with important jobs are often paid the least. that's the wrong way to think about it, and also a misunderstanding of economics. If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid, there won't be enough money for very many teachers. You'd find it hard to afford a teacher for your kids, let alone free education. A doctor, back in the middle ages, is only affordable to the nobility. These days, doctors are still quite highly paid (too high imho), and that is one reason why medical services are expensive. Imagine if you associate the "importance" of a resource with its price. Water would cost more than diamonds and gold! Water is needed for sustaining life - you die without it. Therefore, in theory, it's so important that you end up paying infinity amount of money to have it, under your system! The fact that we have water so cheap (literally 0.000001 cent per cup), is a good outcome. Everybody can afford water.
giantDinosaur 7y ago
The 'economic system' is based on fundamentally one thing: people doing stuff. If people can't do stuff, literally, like go out of their houses, then no new economic model can work. It's like, the one requirement for everything.
cortesoft 7y ago
Ok, you can pay them money, but what are they going to BUY with that money? If people aren't working to produce things, there isn't going to be anything to buy with the money we pay people. That is how you get runaway inflation.
- mac01021 7y ago
  They don't need lots of money to buy lots of stuff. They need to keep themselves fed and keep the electricity on while they're out of work. Food and electricity are two things that will still be produced throughout any "shutdown".

zaroth 7y ago

“If the economic system breaks...” No, this is people breaking. Peoples lives and livelihoods break due to this kind of economic and social strain. And the quarantine effects everyone severely, not just 14% of people.

JoshuaDavid 7y ago

> If the economic system breaks because of one pandemic that will last less than a year maybe that economic system needs to die and be replaced by something more solid and useful for most. Out of curiosity, why do you think it's likely that something more solid and useful to most is likely to come out of an economic collapse? Economic collapses have happened before - are there any instances of a solid and useful system coming out of them (maybe the new deal after the great depression? That one is arguable though).

ramblenode 7y ago
French Revolution? Arguably the Russian Revolution if you accept the USSR as a step up from feudalism.
- pdonis 7y ago
  > French Revolution? Didn't even last a decade until they got themselves an emperor. > Arguably the Russian Revolution if you accept the USSR as a step up from feudalism. Considering that the USSR killed orders of magnitude more of its own people than feudalism under the Czars ever did, I'm going to vote "no" on this one.
  - vkou 7y ago
    It also brought an unprecedented amount of economic development to what was an incredibly backwards country. Not that it's a model to imitate. Although some folks in this thread sound rather ready to sacrifice millions of people, for the sake of keeping the economy limping along...
    - PedroBatista 7y ago
      > Although some folks in this thread sound rather ready to sacrifice millions of people, for the sake of keeping the economy limping along... That’s because they believe they are young and would fight off the virus with no problem. Change one of those variables and they will change their tune.
      - cc81 7y ago
        I can understand that it is prudent to take a worst case scenario here but it depends on how widespread this thing already is without us knowing it. So Sweden has right now 1,639 confirmed cases with 16 deaths so far. There are some young people treated in critical care but so far it has been older people who has passed away, often with other diseases as well. Sweden currently only tests older people, people with severe symptoms, healthcare workers and similar personal and those who can work from home these days and travel is discouraged. One expert estimated that we have around 100k infected in total right now and discussed that some things like shutting down schools for younger kids will have a large effect on society but not do that much on the spread of the virus. Instead you should focus on protecting vulnerable groups, stay home if you feel any symptoms of cold etc. 100k out of 10 million population would fit roughly with Iceland who did random sampling and found 1% of their population affected. Of course he acknowledged that there is no way to know and taking extreme measures are better than taking too small but emotional/political reactions vs practical is really a discussion to be had.
    - xyzzyz 7y ago
      Immediate aftermath of October Revolution was widespread death and famine. It was so bad that the communists introduced market capitalism again, called New Economic Policy.
mistermann 7y ago
Perhaps it's rare due to man's tendency toward corruption. Are there reasons you see why a more robust cannot be developed? I suspect HN could easily come up with a substantial list of improvements. Limiting stock buybacks seems like a good place to start.
zouhair 7y ago
Imagine if we had a system where you don't have to pay for any basic necessities, from shelter to food to healthcare to education. We all work in the system, some would make more than others but even those who work the least or not at all would not be left behind. So if you make more you can enjoy more "stuff" and gadgets and if you make less you are still stress free about life. Would we have $1000 phones or shopping shelves filled with hundred of fake choices? Most likely not but at least we won't have people rationing insulin or people living in the street of the richest city in the richest country. We live in a world with so much production and people spend their time worrying about surviving and getting ahead instead of relaxing and making the world a better place.

buboard 7y ago

this assumes the existence of magical economic systems with infinite reserves in other planets. The economy is people, its a dynamic system, it doesn't actually have reserves

kjksf 7y ago

It's not about abstract "economic system". Let me put it in simple word: you'll loose your job. Your friends and family will loose their jobs. As a result, when your savings run out, you'll loose your appartement. And so will your friends and family. You won't be able to afford food without government assistance. And even if shutdown lasts only 30 days, it'll wreck the economy for a long time. Once a restaurant defaults and closes, it won't just re-open. Those jobs will be lost for a long time. Now, maybe you're one of the lucky ones with enough savings to ride this out and this won't affect you. But it'll affect millions of others.

danharaj 7y ago
You cannot imagine an economic system where the default state of a human being is to become destitute?
- WalterBright 7y ago
  People are going to be destitute if nobody is producing goods and services. Money is worthless if there's nothing to buy.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - danharaj 7y ago
    I think one thing that this pandemic is teaching us is that most people's jobs do jack shit to maintain the basic needs of society, and the ones with important jobs are often paid the least.
    - chii 7y ago
      > the ones with important jobs are often paid the least. that's the wrong way to think about it, and also a misunderstanding of economics. If a teacher is paid the way a CEO is paid, there won't be enough money for very many teachers. You'd find it hard to afford a teacher for your kids, let alone free education. A doctor, back in the middle ages, is only affordable to the nobility. These days, doctors are still quite highly paid (too high imho), and that is one reason why medical services are expensive. Imagine if you associate the "importance" of a resource with its price. Water would cost more than diamonds and gold! Water is needed for sustaining life - you die without it. Therefore, in theory, it's so important that you end up paying infinity amount of money to have it, under your system! The fact that we have water so cheap (literally 0.000001 cent per cup), is a good outcome. Everybody can afford water.

giantDinosaur 7y ago

The 'economic system' is based on fundamentally one thing: people doing stuff. If people can't do stuff, literally, like go out of their houses, then no new economic model can work. It's like, the one requirement for everything.

cortesoft 7y ago

Ok, you can pay them money, but what are they going to BUY with that money? If people aren't working to produce things, there isn't going to be anything to buy with the money we pay people. That is how you get runaway inflation.

mac01021 7y ago
They don't need lots of money to buy lots of stuff. They need to keep themselves fed and keep the electricity on while they're out of work. Food and electricity are two things that will still be produced throughout any "shutdown".