4 ms·

Cruise ships aren't bad options either. I hear they're a bit underutilized

by vanniv 7y ago

daenz 7y ago
I like the spirit of the idea (keeping them away from others), but other than that, it's not a wise idea: >Keeping all the passengers on board instead of letting them disembark on land is a strategy that can backfire, however, according to experts, because the ventilation systems and close quarters of cruise ships make them ideal places for illness to jump from one person to the next. >“They’re not designed as quarantine facilities, to put it mildly,” said Don Milton, an epidemiologist with the University of Maryland. >Milton, who studies the spread of virus particles in the air, said recirculating air on a cruise ship’s ventilation system, along with people living in close quarters and in communal settings, make the vessels vulnerable to the spread of infection. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/07/coronavirus-quarantine-cruise-ship-could-backfire-experts-say/4991376002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/07/cor...
- ch4s3 7y ago
  I think the parent meant using them as mobile quarantine/treatment centers for confirmed cases.
  - daenz 7y ago
    The point about the recirculating air means that whoever is caring for the sick is also going to get sick.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      So turn off the air and open the balcony doors.
    - petertodd 7y ago
      It's likely possible to install HEPA filters in the ventilation systems, which could effectively prevent cross-contamination(1). While they do restrict airflow more than normal filters, you can fix that problem by simply making them larger. Not so easy to do in your house, but with engineering support on an emergency basis it might not be so hard, especially if you can close part of the ship so your total airflow needs are less. Eg maybe use every other cabin or something. 1) It's a common myth that HEPA filters don't filter viruses because they're too small. In fact, they work basically just as well on small particles as large ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA
- schoen 7y ago
  I wonder why the air aboard cruise ships has to recirculate so much—it seems like cruise ships are usually about 1/2 surrounded by breathable air at normal atmospheric pressure. Is it about heating and cooling, like, passengers would feel very uncomfortable if the air in their cabins had a lot of fresh sea air mixed into it? Do they do something to filter out the salt from the air intake?
  - petertodd 7y ago
    Because fresh air needs to be heated or cooled, and that's expensive when you're running everything off diesel. Heat exchangers do help, but they're not perfect, so every bit of outside ventilation costs money. This is why fume hoods which exhaust to the outside can be surprisingly expensive to run in cold/hot climates.
    - stevenwoo 7y ago
      I thought cruise ships run off bunker fuel same as container ships.
      - petertodd 7y ago
        Ah, yeah, you are correct. Still going to be a lot more expensive than shore power thought.
- hamandcheese 7y ago
  Virus spread shouldn’t be a huge issue if you only put confirmed cases on the ship.
  - daenz 7y ago
    Who treats them on the ship? It certainly wouldn't be healthy medical professionals.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      We'll fairly rapidly have a group of infected-but-functional and (a bit later) recovered medical professionals.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  There's no concern for the spread of infection if you designate a facility (no matter if it's a sports hall or a cruise ship) for holding and treating only known patients of a single disease. Yes, they're not suitable for quarantine of possibly infected people - but it seems that we're past that stage, with massive community spread, we're not going to quarantine anyone, we're just going to ask possibly infected people to please try and stay at home if it's not too inconvenient; I mean, most countries don't even bother testing the possibly infected contacts anymore.
  - thephyber 7y ago
    That’s what I thought initially, but I remember reading that once pneumonia sets in, those infected with COVID-19 are likely to suffer from secondary infections. Not having an inventory of colds and flus to compound on COVID-19 would be a plus.
- vanniv 7y ago
  Those issues assumed a full ship, like the Diamond Princess situation. But, if all of the "passengers" were patients, and you only used balcony rooms (to have extra airflow available), and only used half of even those, would that mitigate the issue? Are there other options to temporarily retrofit the ventilation system? How much worse is a cruise ship ventilation system from an old hotel's HVAC? Which is harder to retrofit?
beamatronic 7y ago
They’ve never solved the sanitation problem. But perhaps small changes could be made to future ship designs, to allow them to be re-purposed
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  > to allow them to be re-purposed Or, maybe just to make sure they are not super powerful disease spreaders on normal times. I imagine they are hard to regulate, but a country can make some seal of approval, and maybe even punish people seeking treatment for transmissible diseases after they come from one without the seal. (Even tough that second one is very heavy handed and hopefully unnecessary.)

Cruise ships aren't bad options either. I hear they're a bit underutilized

by vanniv 7y ago

Cruise ships aren't bad options either. I hear they're a bit underutilized

I like the spirit of the idea (keeping them away from others), but other than that, it's not a wise idea: >Keeping all the passengers on board instead of letting them disembark on land is a strategy that can backfire, however, according to experts, because the ventilation systems and close quarters of cruise ships make them ideal places for illness to jump from one person to the next. >“They’re not designed as quarantine facilities, to put it mildly,” said Don Milton, an epidemiologist with the University of Maryland. >Milton, who studies the spread of virus particles in the air, said recirculating air on a cruise ship’s ventilation system, along with people living in close quarters and in communal settings, make the vessels vulnerable to the spread of infection. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/07/coronavirus-quarantine-cruise-ship-could-backfire-experts-say/4991376002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/07/cor...

ch4s3 7y ago
I think the parent meant using them as mobile quarantine/treatment centers for confirmed cases.
- daenz 7y ago
  The point about the recirculating air means that whoever is caring for the sick is also going to get sick.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    So turn off the air and open the balcony doors.
  - petertodd 7y ago
    It's likely possible to install HEPA filters in the ventilation systems, which could effectively prevent cross-contamination(1). While they do restrict airflow more than normal filters, you can fix that problem by simply making them larger. Not so easy to do in your house, but with engineering support on an emergency basis it might not be so hard, especially if you can close part of the ship so your total airflow needs are less. Eg maybe use every other cabin or something. 1) It's a common myth that HEPA filters don't filter viruses because they're too small. In fact, they work basically just as well on small particles as large ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA
schoen 7y ago
I wonder why the air aboard cruise ships has to recirculate so much—it seems like cruise ships are usually about 1/2 surrounded by breathable air at normal atmospheric pressure. Is it about heating and cooling, like, passengers would feel very uncomfortable if the air in their cabins had a lot of fresh sea air mixed into it? Do they do something to filter out the salt from the air intake?
- petertodd 7y ago
  Because fresh air needs to be heated or cooled, and that's expensive when you're running everything off diesel. Heat exchangers do help, but they're not perfect, so every bit of outside ventilation costs money. This is why fume hoods which exhaust to the outside can be surprisingly expensive to run in cold/hot climates.
  - stevenwoo 7y ago
    I thought cruise ships run off bunker fuel same as container ships.
    - petertodd 7y ago
      Ah, yeah, you are correct. Still going to be a lot more expensive than shore power thought.
hamandcheese 7y ago
Virus spread shouldn’t be a huge issue if you only put confirmed cases on the ship.
- daenz 7y ago
  Who treats them on the ship? It certainly wouldn't be healthy medical professionals.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    We'll fairly rapidly have a group of infected-but-functional and (a bit later) recovered medical professionals.
PeterisP 7y ago
There's no concern for the spread of infection if you designate a facility (no matter if it's a sports hall or a cruise ship) for holding and treating only known patients of a single disease. Yes, they're not suitable for quarantine of possibly infected people - but it seems that we're past that stage, with massive community spread, we're not going to quarantine anyone, we're just going to ask possibly infected people to please try and stay at home if it's not too inconvenient; I mean, most countries don't even bother testing the possibly infected contacts anymore.
- thephyber 7y ago
  That’s what I thought initially, but I remember reading that once pneumonia sets in, those infected with COVID-19 are likely to suffer from secondary infections. Not having an inventory of colds and flus to compound on COVID-19 would be a plus.
vanniv 7y ago
Those issues assumed a full ship, like the Diamond Princess situation. But, if all of the "passengers" were patients, and you only used balcony rooms (to have extra airflow available), and only used half of even those, would that mitigate the issue? Are there other options to temporarily retrofit the ventilation system? How much worse is a cruise ship ventilation system from an old hotel's HVAC? Which is harder to retrofit?

beamatronic 7y ago

They’ve never solved the sanitation problem. But perhaps small changes could be made to future ship designs, to allow them to be re-purposed

marcosdumay 7y ago
> to allow them to be re-purposed Or, maybe just to make sure they are not super powerful disease spreaders on normal times. I imagine they are hard to regulate, but a country can make some seal of approval, and maybe even punish people seeking treatment for transmissible diseases after they come from one without the seal. (Even tough that second one is very heavy handed and hopefully unnecessary.)