10 ms·
Keep in mind that probably the most important spec when considering a new laptop is one that is often not directly stated: the processor series. I'm not talkin
by pyrophane 7y ago
Keep in mind that probably the most important spec when considering a new laptop is one that is often not directly stated: the processor series.
I'm not talking about i3/i5/i7, but rather U/Y/H. This letter determines the TDP (thermal design power/point) them machine is designed to run at. The TDP will govern the setting for the base clock speed, and, just as importantly, the throttling behabior under load.
Processor series TDPs are Y: 4.5W, U: 15W, H: 45W.
The new MacBook Air appears to have a Y series processor, like the MacBook, which means it will be aggressively throttled to keep power consumption and heat generation low.
Practically, that means that the new Air will not be capable of running sustained workloads much above its base clock speed, which makes it unsuitable for many programming-related tasks.
The Pro is still a much better choice for programmers. The 13 is suitable for many things, but the 16, with the H series processor, is really preferred for computationally intensive work.
You can get away with this machine if your workflow primary involves a text editor and remote servers, but otherwise I would still opt for the pro.
- gerardnll 7y agoWell I'm on a 2016 macbook air, 8gb RAM and doing web programming everyday. 3 phpstorm windows, sometimes Photoshop open, more than 20 tabs in Chrome, iterm, figma, paw... Honestly it runs pretty well and I was waiting for this update.
- Kamshak 7y agoAssuming PHP you just described "a text editor and remote servers"
- mekster 7y agoApparently PHPStorm and Photoshop aren't "text editors" one would imagine.
- jbeales 7y agoPhpStorm = Big, Java-based IDE. It's not some simple text editor. PHP Dev often means some sort of local server running too.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7y agobig complex IDEs are almost never compute bound. compilers are often compute bound (certainly on SSDs). web servers are almost never compute bound.
- innocenat 7y agoYou severely underestimate JetBrains IDE.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7y agoany IDE that is compute bound should be thrown out, especially for a language that is never compiled.
- copperx 7y agoOne has to wonder about the carbon footprint of millions of developers running these monstrous IDEs.
- dionidium 7y agoYeah, but that's a lot of us. Obviously there are some programmers out there doing computation-bound work, but an awful lot of us aren't. If you're doing web stuff or making apps, then basically any computer manufactured in the last 5-8 years is going to be fine. I do iOS side work on a 2012 quad-core Mac Mini. It's totally fine. It's OK to geek out about hardware, if that's your thing. But it's not really necessary for most people -- even programmers.
- burlesona 7y agoI think you’ll be happy with the update, especially if you were happy with the previous machine. Remember you can try it out for 14 days risk free, so if you have any doubts you have time to test it thoroughly before committing. https://www.apple.com/shop/help/returns_refund https://www.apple.com/shop/help/returns_refund
- vicpara 7y agoHow are you going to return it if all Apple stores are closed due to COVID-19 ?
- xenonite 7y agoLucky you, because yours still has a U processor, not a Y one.
- gerardnll 7y agoI'll wait for some benchmarks then. Maybe there's not much improvement. I see Apple is comparing last model that had 2 cores with this new 4 cores and saying there's a 2x improvement.
- dimitar 7y agoIf you are running something computationally intensive isn't a desktop more suitable? 45W will get your laptop pretty warm and noisy and will drain your battery.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> 45W will get your laptop pretty warm and noisy and will drain your battery. So put it on a stand and plug it in? Problem solved.
- foldr 7y ago> isn't a desktop more suitable
- chrisseaton 7y ago> isn't a desktop more suitable No it isn't any more suitable, because you can put your laptop on a stand and plug it in to achieve the same thing.
- tasuki 7y agoIt's not the same thing by far: Laptops have much worse heat dissipation than desktops, they overheat, and your high-powered CPU gets throttled down.
- _ph_ 7y agoSome people need to carry their computer around, so the laptop has to be a compromise between stationary computing power and portability. The MacBook Pro strikes this balance quite well all around. Of course there are bigger and heavier laptops, if you require even more performance and are not limited by portability.
- dr_zoidberg 7y agoI'm on a 7200u (i5, 15W) and I could really use the extra oomph (rounding things, it'd be 40% extra performance assuming a cubed increase in power consumption vs performance improvement -- which is pretty close to what I've seen in practice) of it being 45W. Been looking at the newer gaming notebooks, and I'm waiting the "real world confrontation" of 10th generation i7s (specially those that have AVX512) vs Renoir (lots of cores, AVX2 on a single instruction and (not as much as desktop) lots of cache), since I run some numeric heavy code and it's not quite clear how they'll stand up to each other. Why do I run this on a notebook and not a desktop? Because I'm always on the move, and I can pack the notebook and go anywhere I have to and be able to work with or without internet connection (which is sometimes the case).
- bryanmgreen 7y agoLearned something new, thanks!
- coherentpony 7y ago> The Pro is still a much better choice for programmers. I'm not totally sure I agree. I typically do a lot of programming on my MacBook Air. It's simply a box I use to ssh to something else more powerful to do the actual runs. Yes, if you're running computationally intensive stuff on your MacBook Air you're going to be disappointed, but if what you're mostly doing is typing into a terminal screen then it's probably perfect. And probably even over-powered? :)
- EmoSupportEmu 7y agoThat's exactly what he said at the end of his comment.
- Scarbutt 7y agoPractically, that means that the new Air will not be capable of running sustained workloads much above its base clock speed, which makes it unsuitable for many programming-related tasks. Does that still holds when using the power adapter?
- rpdillon 7y agoOP's comment was about thermal dissipation, which, if anything, would be a more difficult problem with the power adapter (since the processor doesn't need to be throttled to conserve battery, for example). So, yes.
- Scarbutt 7y agoThanks, I guess the question then is, for how long can the mid and max clock rates be sustained.
- ctvo 7y agoThis is underestimating modern processors and overestimating programming compute resource usage. Your post may apply if we're working with 4K+ resolution video files, rendering and other activities, but the modern programmer, even compiling binaries, will be fine on a MacBook Air. How do I know? I use a 2 generation old Macbook as my primary personal development machine. I write Go, Rust, Java and TypeScript using the common tool chains for all those languages.
- geerlingguy 7y agoYou haven't been forced to deploy something that builds a local K8s cluster and builds and runs 10+ containers just to get a microservices app up and ready for development, I see... (only partially /s).
- ctvo 7y agoThat's a good point, and outside of my personal development workflow. Condolences!
- baddox 7y agoIt doesn't even take that much. Docker Desktop on MacOS is widely known to be terrible and have extremely poor performance. Running webpack-dev-server with filewatching through Docker nearly grinds my 2017 Macbook Pro to a halt. Obviously most node/webpack/JS stuff can run natively on Mac but it's not uncommon to see dev stacks that dockerize everything because that's how the production stack works.
- emerongi 7y agoI often have up to 10 VSCode editors, an IntelliJ window and two browser instances open. Add some server processes, UI watchers/builders, and my Thinkpad starts to freeze up. In an ideal world, I would have a low-latency remote desktop going, but even in 2020 it seems like a pipe dream.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
- xenonite 7y agoSo for peak load, it’s an upgrade compared to the previous generation MacBook Air. But for sustained load, it seems to actually be a downgrade, as the previous gen still had processors of the U series.
- danieldk 7y agoas the previous gen still had processors of the U series. No? The base model had a i5-8210Y? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Technical_specifications_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Technical_specific...
- xenonite 7y agoI am sorry, with previous generation I meant the non-retina version of 2016, which indeed had U processors.
- BattyMilk 7y agoI'm a FE developer (Mainly React/Node/React Native Development) and I'm still using a 2012 13" Macbook air (8Gb) as my daily driver at home. There's a noticable difference between it and my work (granted still relatively old) 2017 MBP 17". Running builds and an entire test suite maybe take twice as long but it's overall very usable and I see no reason yet to upgrade.
- luxuryballs 7y agoI picked up the new 2018 Air right after the redesign, 16gb and 512 ssd model. I have had no problems with xcode doing iOS dev (even using simulator on occasion), vscode and nodejs/redis/mysql working fine, also no problems running windows in parallels desktop, it’s super fast and quiet! Great machine, only wish I had waited for the true tone and keyboard redesign but those are minor, have grown to love the keyboard.
- Moto7451 7y agoSame here. No problems doing development. The Achilles' heel? Work conferencing with Google Meet. Kills the poor machine.
- bredren 7y agoI did the same but got 32GB. It is a fantastic machine, but it is even better with the blackmagic eGPU. Heavy recommend on that if considering a home dock setup.
- Marsymars 7y agoThe CPUs in the new MBA have 9W TDPs. OEMs can still control load performance, it's not entirely determined by TDP. Anandtech has a good article: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-processors-draw-more-power-than-expected-tdp-turbo https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-processors-dr... Depending on OEM settings and cooling capacity, it's possible for Intel CPUs to indefinitely run at greater than their base clocks and TDP.
- monocasa 7y agoTotally. To back this up with a real world example, Apple screwed up the throttling of the i9 MacBooks originally, causing them to be over throttled. A software update that pretty much amounted to an MSR write on boot fixed it. https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/throttling-fix-2018-macbook-pro-improvements/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/throttling-fix-2018-mac... Why does Intel let OEMs play with that? It's to give OEMs a knob they can play with to balance perf and price for their segment. It lets OEMs cheap out on cooling (or go with new form factors like the tiny GPD models) and go with the low minimums, or have a full system that's capable of higher TDP like Apple's tend to be.
- vbezhenar 7y agoMacbook Air has extremely bad cooling (on purpose, because it's thin and quiet). Don't expect it to boost well.
- Marsymars 7y ago"Boost well" probably means different things to different people. On my fanless 12" MB with a 7W TDP m7-6Y75 (1.3 Ghz base, 3.1 GHz max turbo), running a Prime95 torture test stabilizes at the following for the CPU via Intel Power Gadget: 9.5W, 1.95 GHz, 90°. (Laptop feels warm to the touch - it only ever feels "hot" under GPU load.) Normal all-thread load stabilizes around 2.5 GHz.
- Sangeppato 7y agoYep, so many people don't think about that when they look at laptops and it's so annoying. FWIW, the Y CPU in the Air is set at 9W instead of the usual 4.5W
- morpheuskafka 7y agoThis is why there is a huge difference between 8-gen or greater Intel CPUs on mobile. As of 7th gen, the only mobile CPUs that had quad-core were the HQ-series 45W TDPs which required a totally different cooling design. Then, with 8th gen, all the regular low-TDP CPUs got quad core and the 45Ws started offering six-core. For example, the only ThinkPad of that generation's T-series that had one was the T470p which had a significantly different design in terms of batteries, thunderbolt features, etc. to accommodate the significantly larger cooling system. With the very next year's model, all the models got quad-core with their usual low-voltage/low-power (and low battery usage) design.
- rubber_duck 7y ago>You can get away with this machine if your workflow primary involves a text editor and remote servers, but otherwise I would still opt for the pro. I bought a 2018 15 inch MBP with 6 core i9, 32 GB of ram and vega GPU with the idea that it would be my one stop development machine. The system is terrible, especially considering the outrageous price - it does have sufficient compute power but the thermals are insanely bad - it's constantly turning the fans to 100% and I can't even tune the power usage - when I run a VM/emulator along the IDE people in the office start turning their head in my direction because of the fan noise. And the performance still isn't even close to a mid range desktop machine which would have cost 1/4 the price. I'm seriously considering selling my MBP buying this Mac Book Air top config (I need an OSX machine to develop iOS/OSX apps, otherwise I would go for Lenovo X1 Carbon) and building a desktop which will be always on VPN for heavy lifting + it can replace my gaming console.
- kristofferR 7y agoThe 2019 Pro completely fixed the thermal issues, it is actually considered to have pretty impressive thermals now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxocVricANg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxocVricANg
- danieldk 7y agoAnd the performance still isn't even close to a mid range desktop machine which would have cost 1/4 the price. I'm seriously considering selling my MBP buying this Mac Book Air top config (I need an OSX machine to develop iOS/OSX apps, otherwise I would go for Lenovo X1 Carbon) and building a desktop which will be always on VPN for heavy lifting + it can replace my gaming console. I have a MacBook Pro 2018 and Intel NUC running Linux with exactly the same CPU. In typical C/C++/Rust builds, the Linux NUC is perceptibly much faster than the MacBook. Didn't dive much deeper, but I'd guess the difference is thermals (despite the NUC having a small enclosure) and much higher system call overhead in macOS. That said, I still like having a Mac as well, since there are so many great applications that I use frequently. But a sweet spot (as you suggest) is a reasonably powerful MacBook for the things that macOS is good at and a powerful Linux workstation or server for compute.
- iamben 7y agoCan someone explain chip speed and relevance in a way I'd understand pretty please? I dialled out of this stuff years ago - at a point when bigger numbers just meant better, but now they just seem the same? I'm still using a 2013 MBA as my primary machine day to day. It has an i7 and 8gb of RAM. I've been waiting for the keyboard change before I upgraded, but today I see my options are i5 and i7 (as 2013). I'd get 16gb of RAM, but literally have no clue about the chip stuff. I'm assuming we've moved on somewhat from 2013?! Any help much appreciated! Thanks in advance!
- xemdetia 7y agoFor Intel chips i3/i5/i7 have generally represented feature ranges, so to really identify the chip you have to find out their product code or at least processor generation. Once you have that you can use ARK to distinguish between them. Here's an example of an older 2017 era desktop processor of i5 and i7: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compare.html?productIds=80811,80807 https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compare.html?pro... Complicating things recently is the introduction of the Xeon W and i9 lines, but for the most part the Xeon ones have yet more a new features and i9 are higher core counts to compete with AMD. In broad strokes in the laptop space the majority of enhancements since 2013 I would say is higher RAM capacity (that Apple as a manufacturer has not to pursue compared to Lenovo, etc.), still yet lower overall power consumption to improve battery life, DDR3 to DDR4 ram, bigger L1/L2/L3 caches, and normal improvements to embedded graphics to support bigger onboard and external displays, and PCI-E enhancements for drives as NVMe-style drives are what I would consider the new standard.
- iamben 7y agoThank you!
- rconti 7y agoSame question here. My 2011 Air is basically unusable now, so I've been waiting for this machine. i3, or $300 more for the i5 (which was my first inclination). Then you get into the i5 machine and they offer an i7 for another $150. My work won't be processor intensive, just a personal machine. But given how long I kept my old one, I intend to keep this one for a long time, and I'm not sure where the best price:performance tradeoff is. I could argue going low-end and replacing it sooner, or high end, and keeping it forever.
- aledalgrande 7y agoI find it a bit opaque that they do not advertise exactly which series/gen they are putting on the machine. Can't find it even on the Tech Specs page.
- vbezhenar 7y agoThey don't advertise their memory models or disk manufacturer either. Probably typical customer does not care. Wait for teardowns if you're interested in those details.
- aledalgrande 7y agoI'd say anyone buying a pro careas at least about the generation.
- ridiculous_fish 7y agoUnlike most other Y-series devices (including the MacBook), the MacBook Air has a fan. This allows it to dissipate more heat and sustain higher clock rates.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- cactus2093 7y agoWhere do you even find this info? Even on the Tech Specs page for the macbook air on apple.com it says "3.0GHz 6-core Intel Core i5 Turbo Boost up to 4.1GHz 9MB shared L3 cache" and doesn't give the model number.
- swah 7y agoI've been issued a MBP at work and now thinking of picking a 5 year old MBP to work at home, since switching two OSes is overwhelming at this point. Is this a good idea?
- copperx 7y agoYes. What kind of work do you do that prevents you from taking the MBP home?
- z6 7y agoThe nice thing about this one is the lack of the touch bar.
- timbo1642 7y agoWhat makes Macbook Pros good for developers versus PC laptops? (I'm not a programmer)
- neop1x 7y agoMacbookAir always seemed like a tablet with keyboard to me. I have seen ordinary people complaining that they can't multitask apps there, that they have to run one app at the time. I think Air is not supposed and never was to be used as a development or video processing machine.