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Manufacturer Threatens To Sue Volunteers who printed a valve
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sliken 7y agoDupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611910
- grecy 7y agoCOVID-19 is bringing to the surface more and more fascinating cases where under "normal" circumstances Capitalism and making a profit is a good thing, but under just a little bit of pressure, suddenly it's evil. Canada have just made it illegal ($5000 fine) for trying to profit off sales of toilet paper or sanitizer, and listings for them have been banned from eBay and Kijiji (Canada's version of Craigslist). Of course, under normal circumstances it's perfectly fine for Nike to make a pair of shoes for $3 (paying people terrible wages) and then sell them for $300 dollars. Their share price goes up and the Capitalists are happy. Under normal circumstances patents are a good way to protect IP, and nobody cared last month that a part was $11,000 dollars and they had a monopoly on making it. As one twitter post said "COVID-19 is a blacklight and it's revealing a lot of nasty stains on our Capitalist society"
- maxerickson 7y agoOh come on, "nobody cared last month"? The problem is that there's lots of regulatory capture in the medical industry and that lots of people don't mind it so long as they get to elect people that say the things they want to hear. Plenty of people care, just not a voting majority.
- throwaway894345 7y agoI never understand these capitalism criticisms. It’s like criticizing modern medicine because Coronavirus exists. Yeah, it’s not a perfect system but I’m not going to switch to homeopathy just yet.
- dguaraglia 7y agoYour analogy makes no sense. Modern medicine didn't create, or even encourage the creation of, the coronavirus. Price gouging is very much an obvious consequence of unbridled capitalism.
- LanceH 7y agoThat is fucking rich. You obviously never tried buying something in the USSR. Or when rationing was in effect during WW2. Or medicinal alcohol during prohibition. All government regulated supply resulting in a very expensive secondary market. Black markets thrive under systems other than capitalism where price gouging is the exception rather than the rule.
- perceptronas 7y agoYes you are right. Even with laws preventing price gouging people will sell/buy what they want. If sellers/buyers cannot do that in government regulated market - they will do that in the black markets
- dguaraglia 7y agoPlease explain how I am wrong?
- pnw_hazor 7y agoPrice gouging is evidence of a failed market and not a consequence of capitalism. In the event of market failure, government intervention is often warranted until the market can correct itself. However, laws against price gouging are not the whole solution. Laws against price gouging do not prevent hoarding or panic buying. Thus, holding the price of the goods artificially low in the face of increased demand leads to shortages. (Unsurprisingly) If you have laws against price gouging you need to have laws that limit the number of units purchased to reduce hoarding. Otherwise, you inevitably will have short term shortages.
- Natsu 7y agoWell, in fairness there are real problems, but they're not unsolvable ones nor reasons to abandon capitalism, we just need to fix the IP laws in various ways and make other tweaks. The real problem is that some people want to make shortages like this permanent by going full communism.
- ZhuanXia 7y agoPatents are government-granted monopolies. Hardly a free market. Same with land ownership, hence my Georgism.
- spamalot159 7y agoThis makes me feel gross. I know what they're doing is totally legal, but it just feels wrong in this circumstance.
- roywiggins 7y agoThat's because it's deeply immoral!
- 1996 7y agoAs I said before, I want to see which jury will convict them for counterfeiting! The manufacturer may threaten, huff and puff, but juries are filled with human, who will feel same same wrongness we do. In theory, everybody cares about FDA certification and all the legal details like HIPPA and stuff. In practice, when SHTF ie in a situation like 9/11, most humans beings seem to do the best they can with what they have. No one should refuse to act just by fear of being sued for doing something, when inaction will guarantee the death of other human beings. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22590069 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22590069
- adrianN 7y agoI'm not familiar with the Italian legal system, but I would be surprised if a patent dispute goes before a jury.
- anticensor 7y agoItalian criminal courts implement bench trial, not jury trial.
- sneak 7y agoIP laws are wrong in all circumstances. I don’t owe anyone money for singing a song, nor when I print a shape, nor when I photograph a painting, nor when I give a friend a book.
- hdjejdjd 7y ago
- virtualritz 7y agoPrintcrime[1,2] by Doctorov becoming reality in one of the most nasty ways imaginable. [1] https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_Printcrime.html https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocke... [2] E-book download: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000
- xenospn 7y agoVery, very bad PR.
- i_am_nomad 7y agoExcept the company isn’t named anywhere, as far as I can tell. So at the moment it’s not any kind of PR.
- danimal88 7y agoYou'd think an easy enough change to the laws around IP for medical equipment would be that if they can't supply critical parts, particularly under extreme circumstances, they most hold harmless any supplier that is able to supply said parts.
- Waterluvian 7y agoI think there should be and probably are laws that give the. Executive the ability to shut off these rules in a time of crisis. Not sure it should be or needs to be automatic.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoClaim the patents under eminent domain. Easy peasy.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Rapzid 7y agoThe legislative giveth, and it taketh away.
- staticautomatic 7y agoThis is exactly how it works in the U.S.. The government's right to take your IP is explicitly rooted in eminent domain law.
- Frost1x 7y agoOr that the situation was absolutely ridiculous to begin with and goes way beyond what was ever intended by patent laws. I find it hard to believe that $11k was a justifiable price or that the valve design was novel or sophisticated enough that someone reproduced the geometry from scratch so trivially (without even using sophisticated 3D scanning techniques I might add, as I understand it). A lot of businesses strategically buy and sell patents in processes to prevent others from implementing the full process and to force royalties on single pieces. Patents have really got out of hand and in my opinion, stifle innovation more than secure and foster it the way they're currently being abused. IP protections do need to exist but there's a lot in terms of protection that is just garbage.
- gibolt 7y agoWould be too bad if that valve's 3D file happened to leak online...
- bronzeage 7y agoThis crisis will force us to rethink patent laws and healthcare regulations. under the current circumstances, patent laws and other laws designed to give the medical industry Monopoly over their creations are preventing life saving actions. We will eventually reach a point where a vaccine / cure is found, and instead of allowing all possible companies to manufacture it, patent laws will delay things and actively cause thousands of deaths from those delays.
- Retric 7y agoThe US government can already legally ignore patents. Or simply keep them sealed them for national security reasons: https://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/181.html https://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/181.html Finally, forced licensing is another option.
- pdelbarba 7y agoThey do it with software licensing for sure. There are almost certainly satellites and weapons systems out there with GPL code in them but good luck proving it.
- TwoBit 7y agoSeems like a variation of the price gouging people have been inflamed about recently.
- userbinator 7y agowhich is also why Fracassi doesn't dare share his 3D file with other hospitals, despite their desperate need for these valves. Now suppose someone publishes, anonymously, the design file online...
- mirimir 7y agoMaybe, you know, someone might manage to access the machine that runs the 3D printer. Just accidentally like ...
- fooker 7y agoWould you download a car? :)
- jbverschoor 7y agoActually, I think designs and patents are free for personal use. So any easy way around it is to document how to get to that design, and let’s patients print valves for personal use
- pnw_hazor 7y agoIn the US the Federal government or its agents can infringe patents basically at will. The remedy to the patent holder in a case like this would be the cost of the valves. No special court orders are required. Neither can the infringed sue to stop the US gov (or its contractors) from infringing. If a US state infringes it may be protected by sovereign immunity (assuming it has not waived that protection) Of course Italian law may be different, but they or the EU probably have similar immunities.
- staticautomatic 7y agoNot exactly. https://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/2927 https://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/2927
- pnw_hazor 7y agoI don't see any disagreement with what I said in here. Edit to add: I am an IP attorney so I appreciate that to some people this article may seem like it contradicts some of what I said. IP law is hard. But as far as I could tell, with one quick read, it basically confirms what I said. Also, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this article before.
- staticautomatic 7y agoSorry I should have been specific. The "available remedies" section doesn't really support your assertion about the recovery. But yeah it's basically always lower than civil torts and you're otherwise totally right.
- fsdafsdfddss 7y agoWhy aren't we naming and shaming the manufacturer? This is immoral.
- CyberFonic 7y agoBy witholding the supply of valves the management of are conspiring to murder. Issue arrest warrants for the entire management. When lives are at stake, playing hardball with insatiable capitalists might do the trick.
- Supermancho 7y agoPlease stop linking to Techdirt. That is not a news source. TD is a self-proclaimed rumormill.
- mirimir 7y agoI haven't managed to identify the valve manufacturer. They definitely ought to be named and shamed. I did find this: https://www.archyde.com/italian-start-up-3d-prints-valves-to-help-coronavirus-patients/ https://www.archyde.com/italian-start-up-3d-prints-valves-to... Edit: Charging 10000 EUR for a 1 EUR part in a breathing device is typical scumbag behavior. Doing that during a pandemic rises to criminal. Suing people who 3D print parts for free is grounds for nationalization.
- sandov 7y ago> Charging 10000 EUR for a 1 EUR part in a breathing device is typical scumbag behavior. Doing that during a pandemic rises to criminal. Suing people who 3D print parts for free is grounds for nationalization. No, it's grounds for abolition of intellectual property. Don't blame the player for crappy rules.
- ehnto 7y agoI'm with you on the first sentence, not so much on the second. You can totally blame the player. We all have a morale duty to the communities we live in, abstracting our responsibilities away into law doesn't stop that from being true.
- oaiey 7y agoWell said. Law is just a framework not the rules of life.
- dmix 7y agoStill that makes them awful rules when almost every other industry couldn't survive doing the same thing. > Let me ask a question: when was the last time that America’s chair industry hiked the price of chairs 400% and suddenly nobody in the country could afford to sit down? When was the last time that the mug industry decided to charge $300 per cup, and everyone had to drink coffee straight from the pot or face bankruptcy? When was the last time greedy shoe executives forced most Americans to go barefoot? And why do you think that is? https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-drugs-vs-chairs/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-d... Remember this is something that we decided to add. Absent the laws, and more importantly the captured regulatory process which enforces it, it wouldn't be happening. I'm not convinced this is a requirement to having rules at all.
- noodlesUK 7y agoThe Italian government should grant an amnesty for this immediately. Lives are on the line. There is no question about what the right thing to do in this situation is.
- tyre 7y agoAgreed. Parliament can grant pardons. They should come out and say, "Anyone prosecuted for patent infringement over this valve will be pardoned." There aren't many clear, easy choices in a situation like this. Here's one.
- hedora 7y agoThey can probably also move to invalidate the patent. There is precedent for this sort of thing in the US, at least.
- manmal 7y agoIANAL but I‘m not sure it would work this way since parliament cannot directly influence the judge. And I think this wouldn’t be a criminal case, so they would have to change patent laws (might take too long now), or find a different way - eg they could promise to fully reimburse all infringers of this patent though.
- regularfry 7y agoThat's actually the wrong way round. In order to be pardoned, they first have to be found guilty, so they need to go through the expense of defending themselves. What's needed is to prevent the cases from getting that far in the first place, which could be done by the government taking possession of any relevant patents for the duration and issuing a time-limited license.
- poiuyt098 7y ago> Lives are on the line You could say that about many patents, probably most medicine ones. Also no one would want to do business with Italy, and it probably breaks EU & international laws.
- thomasfl 7y agoThe manufacturer has given tinkerers another good reason to make fully open source 3d printable reanimation machine.
- ISL 7y agoI guess I was wrong, again.... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22588619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22588619 Are the manufacturers forced by any legal precedent to sue in order to defend their patents?
- fungiblecog 7y agoI doubt a valve is novel enough to be patented, and the 3D design was reverse engineered so it is not covered by Copyright. I doubt these guys have any kind of case that would stand up in court
- pnw_hazor 7y agoYou can't know that w/o seeing the valve and the patent. But there are probably immunities or limitations of liability at play here based on the circumstances. Generally, the medical device industry is cut throat and patent heavy. They patent every tweak they can to fend off competitors. It makes some sense because of the expense associated with bringing a medical device to market.
- Ballas 7y agoI don't think it counts as reverse engineered if you had access to the original - ie if you take measurements to reproduce it, you are copying it, not reverse engineering.
- tlrobinson 7y agoMeasuring the physical attributes of something certainly counts as "reverse engineering". You might be thinking of clean room design [1], where one team does the reverse engineering and writes spec, and another team implements it from the spec. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
- ada1981 7y agoWhy aren’t we working to create a 3D print file of this ourselves and releasing it? If other hospitals do indeed need this valve, we should be spending our time doing this.
- clort 7y agoin order to copy a part, you need one of them to measure. edit: also, you really need a working machine to ensure that the design that you have created works is properly functional
- chrismcb 7y agoSo I don't know Italian or European parent law. But how would this be illegal? It appears the part was redesigned from scratch, so I don't it used any process that is patented. Of course maybe patent law is different over there. I also realize it is possible this company is simply try to intimidate. Just wondering if they actually have legal staggering.
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- manmal 7y agoCharging this kind of money for a valve should come with an agreement to produce enough of said valve, or providing the 3D file for emergencies like that. It’s actually in manufacturers‘ best interest - imagine we get this kind of scenario more often. I think it’s quite possible that a grey market for 3D printed medical parts will develop as a result, bringing down prices a lot. And it will be tolerated by governments because they saw this happen.
- torpfactory 7y agoAt least in criminal law there is the concept of "necessity". That is, an illegal activity may in certain cases be legal, if it is necessary to prevent serious harm. Since the manufacturer was unable to supply the part, I would argue that 3D printing it was most certainly a "necessity", at least until either patients stop requiring it, or more parts can be procured. There are some civil law analogs such as being able to trespass someone else's property in emergency situations.
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