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> Touch the handle going to the bathroom. Wash your hands and use a paper towel on the way out, like you should always do. > Sit in the waiting area next to a

by zaroth 7y ago

> Touch the handle going to the bathroom. Wash your hands and use a paper towel on the way out, like you should always do. > Sit in the waiting area next to a sick person. No queuing. > One of the chefs is sick. But takeout and delivery is allowed. So this isn’t any different. The point isn’t that it’s “zero risk” (there’s no such thing). We’re going to have to live with some element of risk in our lives as long as COVID exists without a vaccine. This is totally normal and to be expected. We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. EDIT: You’re right, we’ve been living with Measles for millennia in fact. And as recently as the 1800s there are populations that have been decimated by it. Measles absolutely did consume a massive percentage of hospital resources, although it’s fair to say that hospitals were acclimated to the demand. The “flatten the curve” graphic is extremely misleading. The axis have no scale and the two curves themselves are not to any scale. The actual ICU capacity is like 4 pixels off the y-axis. But that’s besides the point. We should absolutely be taking common sense and appropriate actions to reduce the spread of this virus (and several other diseases come to mind which are more deadly). When possible we should do this in a way that doesn’t destroy people’s livelihood. That means a rational and scientific approach, not the emotional reaction which is so prevalent and actually damaging. Restaurants cannot stay closed indefinitely, particularly when we have reasonable approaches which can make them safe.

jedberg 7y ago
> We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. We lived with measles for more than just decades, but it wasn't a sudden outbreak that was overwhelming medical facilities. The key here is hospital beds. We need to flatten the infective curve right now so that the medical system isn't overwhelmed. Then we can go back to "just being cautious." https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-stupid-b50b6851fc30 https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-... > In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. Again, irrelevant. It wasn't overwhelming the medical system because the infections were spread out. Also we had a vaccine by then.
- timr 7y ago
  Repeatedly saying "flatten the curve" isn't a response to someone saying "flatten the curve without destroying the economy when you can avoid it". Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Singapore...all have managed to contain this virus without kneecapping their economies. We should be following their examples. Most of the US is nowhere near a crisis point, and locking down an entire city (or worse, country) over a small number of cases is like killing a fly with a nuclear weapon. Other, effective tactics exist to manage this kind of a threat.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    I agree, we should be following their examples. But since we aren't doing extensive free testing, and don't have a culture of sick people wearing masks and self isolating, this is the best we can do for now. Once testing becomes readily available we can look at loosening the restrictions. As the Governor of Colorado put it, saving the economy doesn't do a lot of good if everyone is dead.
    - zaroth 7y ago
      That's a pretty inflammatory statement by the Governor. Everyone being alive doesn't do much good if we're all unemployed, bankrupt, and starving because supply lines broke down. Just maybe, somewhere in the middle, Rhyme and Reason can come back home from the Mountain of Ignorance and devise a plan that keeps people safe without cratering the economy. I'm not sure how big a role testing actually plays. Even South Korea is only testing a fraction of a percent of its populace. And many cases are asymptomatic but apparently can also still spread. So I think what we need to be doing, regardless of testing, is seriously teaching extreme personal hygiene. As in, shuttered restaurants need to be undergoing emergency training right now on how they can re-open and provide a safe environment.
    - timr 7y ago
      "As the Governor of Colorado put it, saving the economy doesn't do a lot of good if everyone is dead." That's ridiculous, and I hope it's clear to you why it's ridiculous. You should feel silly for repeating it. There's no rational, educated person who believes that "everyone" is going to die from this. It's not even close to a true statement.
spookthesunset 7y ago
Sure wish this stuff wouldn’t get buried. It should be fine to question and criticize the course we are all taking. Humans can be panicy creatures that love to imagine doomsday scenarios. We live in an age where feeding our imaginations with crap on the internet is a trivial operation. We owe it to all of us to put on our critical thinking caps rather than downvote anything that says something other than “lockdown more, harder, faster, longer”.

by zaroth 7y ago

jedberg 7y ago

> We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. We lived with measles for more than just decades, but it wasn't a sudden outbreak that was overwhelming medical facilities. The key here is hospital beds. We need to flatten the infective curve right now so that the medical system isn't overwhelmed. Then we can go back to "just being cautious." https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-stupid-b50b6851fc30 https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-... > In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. Again, irrelevant. It wasn't overwhelming the medical system because the infections were spread out. Also we had a vaccine by then.

timr 7y ago
Repeatedly saying "flatten the curve" isn't a response to someone saying "flatten the curve without destroying the economy when you can avoid it". Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Singapore...all have managed to contain this virus without kneecapping their economies. We should be following their examples. Most of the US is nowhere near a crisis point, and locking down an entire city (or worse, country) over a small number of cases is like killing a fly with a nuclear weapon. Other, effective tactics exist to manage this kind of a threat.
- jedberg 7y ago
  I agree, we should be following their examples. But since we aren't doing extensive free testing, and don't have a culture of sick people wearing masks and self isolating, this is the best we can do for now. Once testing becomes readily available we can look at loosening the restrictions. As the Governor of Colorado put it, saving the economy doesn't do a lot of good if everyone is dead.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    That's a pretty inflammatory statement by the Governor. Everyone being alive doesn't do much good if we're all unemployed, bankrupt, and starving because supply lines broke down. Just maybe, somewhere in the middle, Rhyme and Reason can come back home from the Mountain of Ignorance and devise a plan that keeps people safe without cratering the economy. I'm not sure how big a role testing actually plays. Even South Korea is only testing a fraction of a percent of its populace. And many cases are asymptomatic but apparently can also still spread. So I think what we need to be doing, regardless of testing, is seriously teaching extreme personal hygiene. As in, shuttered restaurants need to be undergoing emergency training right now on how they can re-open and provide a safe environment.
  - timr 7y ago
    "As the Governor of Colorado put it, saving the economy doesn't do a lot of good if everyone is dead." That's ridiculous, and I hope it's clear to you why it's ridiculous. You should feel silly for repeating it. There's no rational, educated person who believes that "everyone" is going to die from this. It's not even close to a true statement.

spookthesunset 7y ago

Sure wish this stuff wouldn’t get buried. It should be fine to question and criticize the course we are all taking. Humans can be panicy creatures that love to imagine doomsday scenarios. We live in an age where feeding our imaginations with crap on the internet is a trivial operation. We owe it to all of us to put on our critical thinking caps rather than downvote anything that says something other than “lockdown more, harder, faster, longer”.