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Siting at a table with your family that is wiped down just before you sit seems to me like an incredibly low risk activity. As in, less risky than picking up f

by zaroth 7y ago

Siting at a table with your family that is wiped down just before you sit seems to me like an incredibly low risk activity. As in, less risky than picking up food from a grocery store where infected people are shopping and touching things on a daily basis.

atom-morgan 7y ago
Have you ever actually watched a busboy wipe down your table? Sometimes I swear they just use a wet rag dumped into soapy water that's been reused over and over.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Right, so this is a good time for the health department to provide specific instructions on what is required (e.g. the type of disinfectant spray, how long it sits, and drying with paper towels not rags) EDIT: HN is preventing me from replying to you so I’ll edit it in here... Yes, of course, all of it... - They of course should remove the salt & paper shakers. Single use packets can be provided. - They need disposable or wiped down menus. - There can be no self-serve dispensers for napkins or utensils, those have to be distributed one by one. - Seating must be reorganized to keep reasonable distances. - Chefs and waitstaff all must check temperature before their shifts and record in a logbook These are all reasonable common sense measures we can take to keep a massive segment of the economy alive. Restaurants can add a $10 COVID cleaning surcharge if they want to. I mean, it’s only worth like $1 trillion dollars to the economy. There are ~15 million jobs at stake, and that’s not counting secondary effects. And the problem isn’t going away in a few days or even a couple weeks. I saw a video of the Tesla Factory in China and the changes they’ve made to protect workers. For example, the cafeteria tables have been converted into single-person cubbies enclosed on 3 sides. https://youtu.be/9l_4ZH3iXbw https://youtu.be/9l_4ZH3iXbw
  - function_seven 7y ago
    The surface of the table is just one thing out of dozens: Are they going to spray down the salt and pepper shakers, the menus, the hot sauce, the napkin dispenser, the chair seat and back? For self-serve places, how often are the trash cans disinfected, or the ketchup and mustard dispensers (or packet piles)? All that not to mention the other patrons in close proximity while you dine. We don't realize how many communal surfaces we touch in a normal day.
  - sixothree 7y ago
    There sure does seem to be a vacuum of guidance.
dhosek 7y ago
Except that you're surrounded by potentially infected people on all sides. Delivery or pick up is probably the least risky option for eating.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > Delivery or pick up is probably the least risky option for eating. No, cooking it yourself is.
jedberg 7y ago
Unless you go to the bathroom and touch the door handle. Or sit in the waiting area next to a sick person. Or one of the chefs is sick and doesn't have perfect cleanliness. There are a lot more places where things can go wrong transmission-wise in a restaurant than a grocery store. Presumably you will not be touching your face during your shopping experience. But to eat in a restaurant sort of dictates putting things in your face.
- zaroth 7y ago
  > Touch the handle going to the bathroom. Wash your hands and use a paper towel on the way out, like you should always do. > Sit in the waiting area next to a sick person. No queuing. > One of the chefs is sick. But takeout and delivery is allowed. So this isn’t any different. The point isn’t that it’s “zero risk” (there’s no such thing). We’re going to have to live with some element of risk in our lives as long as COVID exists without a vaccine. This is totally normal and to be expected. We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. EDIT: You’re right, we’ve been living with Measles for millennia in fact. And as recently as the 1800s there are populations that have been decimated by it. Measles absolutely did consume a massive percentage of hospital resources, although it’s fair to say that hospitals were acclimated to the demand. The “flatten the curve” graphic is extremely misleading. The axis have no scale and the two curves themselves are not to any scale. The actual ICU capacity is like 4 pixels off the y-axis. But that’s besides the point. We should absolutely be taking common sense and appropriate actions to reduce the spread of this virus (and several other diseases come to mind which are more deadly). When possible we should do this in a way that doesn’t destroy people’s livelihood. That means a rational and scientific approach, not the emotional reaction which is so prevalent and actually damaging. Restaurants cannot stay closed indefinitely, particularly when we have reasonable approaches which can make them safe.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    > We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. We lived with measles for more than just decades, but it wasn't a sudden outbreak that was overwhelming medical facilities. The key here is hospital beds. We need to flatten the infective curve right now so that the medical system isn't overwhelmed. Then we can go back to "just being cautious." https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-stupid-b50b6851fc30 https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-... > In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. Again, irrelevant. It wasn't overwhelming the medical system because the infections were spread out. Also we had a vaccine by then.
magduf 7y ago
I don't see how it's low-risk to have an infected person preparing your food in the kitchen. At least with a grocery store, you can wash off the produce before you use it. With a restaurant, there's nothing covering the food at all. And remember, the chefs in the kitchen are paid peanuts, and have no safety net whatsoever, so there's zero incentive for them to get tested or to stay out of work if they get sick. This is also the case during normal times. Eating out is a good way to catch something in a country where we think it's a great idea to fire cooks and other low-wage workers when they call in sick.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Take out and delivery is still allowed. So I don’t see how this is a valid critique of why dining rooms are closed.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Where did I critique why dining rooms are closed? I didn't address that at all; I only addressed eating food prepared in a restaurant by low-wage cooks who could be infected.
- mdavidn 7y ago
  A large number of unknown people from the general public have been in contact with the dine-in table. Only a handful of kitchen staff are in contact with surfaces involved in preparing takeout. Eating at home is still a better idea for the reasons you state, but takeout is an acceptable if less-ideal alternative.
  - magduf 7y ago
    I'm not disputing the fact about unknown people from the general public being in contact with the table. That's enough of a reason to not dine-in. I'm just pointing out that I have no trust at all that the cooks aren't infected, and they're coming into intimate contact with your food.
throw_m239339 7y ago
low risk? Being in a public place with a lot of other people with a airborne virus? Do you sincerely believe that wiping down tables will protect you and your family?

by zaroth 7y ago

atom-morgan 7y ago

Have you ever actually watched a busboy wipe down your table? Sometimes I swear they just use a wet rag dumped into soapy water that's been reused over and over.

zaroth 7y ago
Right, so this is a good time for the health department to provide specific instructions on what is required (e.g. the type of disinfectant spray, how long it sits, and drying with paper towels not rags) EDIT: HN is preventing me from replying to you so I’ll edit it in here... Yes, of course, all of it... - They of course should remove the salt & paper shakers. Single use packets can be provided. - They need disposable or wiped down menus. - There can be no self-serve dispensers for napkins or utensils, those have to be distributed one by one. - Seating must be reorganized to keep reasonable distances. - Chefs and waitstaff all must check temperature before their shifts and record in a logbook These are all reasonable common sense measures we can take to keep a massive segment of the economy alive. Restaurants can add a $10 COVID cleaning surcharge if they want to. I mean, it’s only worth like $1 trillion dollars to the economy. There are ~15 million jobs at stake, and that’s not counting secondary effects. And the problem isn’t going away in a few days or even a couple weeks. I saw a video of the Tesla Factory in China and the changes they’ve made to protect workers. For example, the cafeteria tables have been converted into single-person cubbies enclosed on 3 sides. https://youtu.be/9l_4ZH3iXbw https://youtu.be/9l_4ZH3iXbw
- function_seven 7y ago
  The surface of the table is just one thing out of dozens: Are they going to spray down the salt and pepper shakers, the menus, the hot sauce, the napkin dispenser, the chair seat and back? For self-serve places, how often are the trash cans disinfected, or the ketchup and mustard dispensers (or packet piles)? All that not to mention the other patrons in close proximity while you dine. We don't realize how many communal surfaces we touch in a normal day.
- sixothree 7y ago
  There sure does seem to be a vacuum of guidance.

dhosek 7y ago

Except that you're surrounded by potentially infected people on all sides. Delivery or pick up is probably the least risky option for eating.

jacquesm 7y ago
> Delivery or pick up is probably the least risky option for eating. No, cooking it yourself is.

jedberg 7y ago

Unless you go to the bathroom and touch the door handle. Or sit in the waiting area next to a sick person. Or one of the chefs is sick and doesn't have perfect cleanliness. There are a lot more places where things can go wrong transmission-wise in a restaurant than a grocery store. Presumably you will not be touching your face during your shopping experience. But to eat in a restaurant sort of dictates putting things in your face.

zaroth 7y ago
> Touch the handle going to the bathroom. Wash your hands and use a paper towel on the way out, like you should always do. > Sit in the waiting area next to a sick person. No queuing. > One of the chefs is sick. But takeout and delivery is allowed. So this isn’t any different. The point isn’t that it’s “zero risk” (there’s no such thing). We’re going to have to live with some element of risk in our lives as long as COVID exists without a vaccine. This is totally normal and to be expected. We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. EDIT: You’re right, we’ve been living with Measles for millennia in fact. And as recently as the 1800s there are populations that have been decimated by it. Measles absolutely did consume a massive percentage of hospital resources, although it’s fair to say that hospitals were acclimated to the demand. The “flatten the curve” graphic is extremely misleading. The axis have no scale and the two curves themselves are not to any scale. The actual ICU capacity is like 4 pixels off the y-axis. But that’s besides the point. We should absolutely be taking common sense and appropriate actions to reduce the spread of this virus (and several other diseases come to mind which are more deadly). When possible we should do this in a way that doesn’t destroy people’s livelihood. That means a rational and scientific approach, not the emotional reaction which is so prevalent and actually damaging. Restaurants cannot stay closed indefinitely, particularly when we have reasonable approaches which can make them safe.
- jedberg 7y ago
  > We lived with Measles for decades and it is much more virulent and about equally as deadly as SARS-CoV-2. We lived with measles for more than just decades, but it wasn't a sudden outbreak that was overwhelming medical facilities. The key here is hospital beds. We need to flatten the infective curve right now so that the medical system isn't overwhelmed. Then we can go back to "just being cautious." https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-stupid-b50b6851fc30 https://medium.com/@yishan/its-the-rate-of-hospitalizations-... > In the 1980s there were still about 2 million people a year dying from Measles. Again, irrelevant. It wasn't overwhelming the medical system because the infections were spread out. Also we had a vaccine by then.

magduf 7y ago

I don't see how it's low-risk to have an infected person preparing your food in the kitchen. At least with a grocery store, you can wash off the produce before you use it. With a restaurant, there's nothing covering the food at all. And remember, the chefs in the kitchen are paid peanuts, and have no safety net whatsoever, so there's zero incentive for them to get tested or to stay out of work if they get sick. This is also the case during normal times. Eating out is a good way to catch something in a country where we think it's a great idea to fire cooks and other low-wage workers when they call in sick.

zaroth 7y ago
Take out and delivery is still allowed. So I don’t see how this is a valid critique of why dining rooms are closed.
- magduf 7y ago
  Where did I critique why dining rooms are closed? I didn't address that at all; I only addressed eating food prepared in a restaurant by low-wage cooks who could be infected.
mdavidn 7y ago
A large number of unknown people from the general public have been in contact with the dine-in table. Only a handful of kitchen staff are in contact with surfaces involved in preparing takeout. Eating at home is still a better idea for the reasons you state, but takeout is an acceptable if less-ideal alternative.
- magduf 7y ago
  I'm not disputing the fact about unknown people from the general public being in contact with the table. That's enough of a reason to not dine-in. I'm just pointing out that I have no trust at all that the cooks aren't infected, and they're coming into intimate contact with your food.

throw_m239339 7y ago

low risk? Being in a public place with a lot of other people with a airborne virus? Do you sincerely believe that wiping down tables will protect you and your family?