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Amazon: Staff told to work overtime as virus spikes demand

99 points by djhaskin987 7y ago

losvedir 7y ago
Ha, I had a completely opposite connotation to the headline and was briefly confused when I read the body. In the couple of large factories I know of operators, mechanics, and others generally are thrilled with overtime, so I thought this was supposed to be a good thing. But the article body spun it very negatively. I wonder what the sentiment is in the factories there. Maybe it's different in the UK.
- frostwhale 7y ago
  Had the same reaction. Its forced overtime so maybe they'll complain? But with the virus hitting, if correct safety precautions are taken the extra cash seems like a good thing? We'd need to actually talk to Amazon workers for their opinions. Also important how Amazon responds if a worker doesn't want the overtime.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    As it currently stands the UK still has the EU 48hr working week so you can opt out of working more than 48hrs and in theory not be punished for it, in practice enforcing that has been hit and miss over the years with punitive measures been hard to prove at times.
- bo0tzz 7y ago
  Voluntary overtime in a well unionized job that pays adequately for the extra effort seems a long way to me from being forced to work more at an exploitative amazon warehouse.
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    I highly encourage you to talk to people who have worked in unions for 20, 30 years. The unions set a lot of rules, those rules can be confusing, and unions tend to take hours from newer people so that older people can have them. Unions can also force people into overtime (as much as any other employer). That's not to say that all unions are bad, but unions are not wholesale good nor evil, they're simply a different mechanism. Amazon likewise is it's own mechanism, and it seems to vary heavily depending on the warehouse. From the workers I've talked with in our local warehouses, they typically like it - but our warehouses are also open for tours so they probably get treated a bit better than others.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  I would like to see some kind of survey of Amazon workers to find out what they're thinking. All we ever get are news articles reporting a simple fact (good I guess) and surrounding it with either positive or negative language choices (not as useful).
rayvd 7y ago
Amazon is hiring 100,000 in the US to meet the demand and increasing wages to help with retention. Last I checked, employment and OT was voluntary. This is all good stuff.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  If your state has expanded unemployment to cover COVID-19, and your unemployment would be more than what Amazon would pay (or even the same or less, if you don't want to subject yourself to Amazon Fulfillment working conditions), it makes more sense to collect the unemployment for as long as the government will provide it (state unemployment coffers are somewhat solid at the moment, and the federal government is going to backstop them similar to the 2008 GFC if Congress can get the emergency bill passed). I don't have a comprehensive list at the moment, but I do know Washington state, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Maryland, and California have expanded benefits. If you or someone you know is impacted, check with your local state's governor's office and the Dept of Unemployment and file as soon as you're eligible, including food stamps and Medicaid if also eligible for those programs.
  - inetknght 7y ago
    You have no idea how unemployment works, do you? Unemployment requires that you're actively seeking work. You're no longer eligible for unemployment if you turn down an offer.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      [removed in lieu of FireBeyond's superior sibling comment]
      - otterley 7y ago
        > I suggest applying for airline roles first you qualify for (if you prefer unemployment to working a suboptimal job at Amazon), at least until they're nationalized in the next 8 weeks. Did I miss a news article about this? Or are you just speculating? Moreover, airline roles are going to be the last to open up. It's going to take a long time for airlines to return to their former capacity, and their employees who were furloughed or laid off are going to be recalled first.
ISL 7y ago
Giving logistics line-workers priority just behind healthcare workers in testing and PPE would make sense. We need logistics infrastructure to stay up, and we need the general populace to trust it.
glup 7y ago
I am worried about this: Long hours means stress and stress means susceptibility to illness. And besides the first-order problem of these workers getting sick, I really don't think we want to take down an increasingly important part of the supply chain for tons of people.
- Tepix 7y ago
  Which is why they are trying to hire an additional 100,000 people.
- ajross 7y ago
  How about we celebrate them as the heroes they are and get our government to help out where needed? Ditto, frankly, for gig economy saviors running around delivering for GrubHub et. al. There's no reason these need to be subsistence level trash jobs. If we really care, now is the time to fix that at the regulatory level.
- dumbfounder 7y ago
  Think of all the people that are worried about getting food and other necessities? My family is in quarantine and we couldn't get Peapod to come for a week so we ordered some emergency food on Amazon and then were able to get Whole Foods delivery (after a lot of trying) to come say day. Now I can sleep better at night until we start running out again. It's all a balancing act, but I am very thankful that Amazon is still out there delivering to the masses. I think it would be a much worse situation without them.
  - Moru 7y ago
    Here in Sweden we have food delivery from most stores since a long time. Mostly meant for older people but becoming mainstream lately. But now private people started announcing free help with shopping on Facebook and similar. Just came home from helping a neighbour with shopping. We can manage just fine without amazon if we just help each other now and then.
    - TulliusCicero 7y ago
duxup 7y ago
Amazon is a key part of the general system of logistics of getting stuff to people now. So yeah it would make sense that OT is going to be a thing. The article is sort of wishy washy on exactly what is going on though, it talks about voluntary and "condition of employment" OT. I've worked in industries where OT was celebrated by employees and a lack of it was actually seen as a huge problem. I'm not 100% sure everyone's response to OT will be identical.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  "I've worked in industries where OT was celebrated by employees and a lack of it was actually seen as a huge problem." The only way this makes sense to me is if employees are directly or indirectly compensated for working overtime. If they're not, then that kind of attitude is pathological.
  - duxup 7y ago
    They were paid extra for OT.
  - Turing_Machine 7y ago
    Hourly employees in the United States are paid at a rate of 150% their base rate for every hour after 40.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  Most who celebrate overtime get paid more. If you're not eligible for overtime (I'd say most who frequent this site), it's not in your interest to work overtime because there's little incentive to do so. If you're salaried and exempt, it's typically in your best interests to work the least amount you can. Most people who celebrate how much of a "hard worker" and wear 50-60 regular work weeks like badges of honor that aren't being compensated extra drank the corporate culture koolaid their HR/HR management offered them, from my experience. It's an entirely different story if you're working more and being compensated more for that work. In that case you're not being taken advantage of (hopefully) and I say, let that person decide what amount of work is appropriate for them. Businesses aren't paying you any more than they can get away with so don't do them any favors either.
threatofrain 7y ago
At this point Amazon's logistical performance is a matter of national security. The degree to which Amazon hiccups is the degree to which the nation is unnerved.
jrd259 7y ago
Amazon engineer here. Many of us (engineers, data analysts, fulfillment center associates) are working more hours to cope with extremely high demand coupled with border closures and extra delays in the road system. This is, I think, good for humanity. If your local store is out of stuff, maybe Amazon can bring it to you, and in any case you don't have to leave your house.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Are engineers and other traditionally exempt status workers being compensated for these additional hours?
  - Infinitesimus 7y ago
    Certainly not
    - shard972 7y ago
      Sly Besos, he knows how to hussle and make a buck!
  - lboc 7y ago
    I know a rhetorical question when I see one :)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
    No. When I worked there we would do a week of pager duty that frequently required 70-80 hours and received no overtime or compensation of any kind.
  - zdragnar 7y ago
    When I interviewed there (approx. 2012), I asked every person I met with about how many hours, on average, they worked per week. Every single one of them gave me a non-answer; most simply answered a different question I didnt ask. If there isn't an expectation of a consistent 40 hour work week, then it is highly unlikely that there will be any bonus for working extra during this time period.
beaker52 7y ago
Border Force staff are being (asked/forced) to work overtime specified in their contracts. Why are we so quick to hate on Amazon, who actually deliver things that we're going to need?
- newprint 7y ago
  Did it specify that there is a contagious deadly virus going around and people should be going no contact ? I Bet, it didn't.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    So do you think grocery stores should just shut down? What about their workers, or the workers at their warehouses/logistics companies?
- Hokusai 7y ago
  > Why are we so quick to hate on Amazon, who actually deliver things that we're going to need? Because Amazon is using desperate people to sign abusive contracts and then make them work risking their lives and loved ones to increase an already huge profit. > who actually deliver things that we're going to need? This post is full of this propaganda from Amazon. Who said that they are delivering first necessity items? Who said that it is better to have one person touching thousands of packages and sending to people's homes is a good idea? Amazon is nos just being a bad player in the job market but also it is damaging the much needed rational on-line debate. Please, keep yourself safe and help society by staying home when asked by the authorities. It is not just about you, but also others.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    > Who said that it is better to have one person touching thousands of packages and sending to people's homes is a good idea? A small number of interacting people + most people hiding at home, is WAY better than having everyone still going out there.
  - Turing_Machine 7y ago
Hokusai 7y ago
> Workers at Amazon's UK warehouses are being told to work overtime to tackle huge demand due to the coronavirus pandemic, despite government calls to restrict social contact. Amazon should be held responsible for all the damage that they do to their employees. > She pointed out that under Working Time Regulations in the UK, overtime is limited to a maximum of 48 hours per week, averaged over a 17-week period. Workers can "opt out" of the maximum weekly limit, however, and some are required to do so as a condition of employment. Any right that you can opt-out it is not a right at all. This is why the survival rate for the poor and the right is going to be different. In our modern society we have the resources for taking care of everybody, it is just greed and malice that allow for this situations.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > Amazon should be held responsible for all the damage that they do to their employees. I'm confused, Amazon ships all kinds of things, and people still need to be able to buy stuff. How is this different from logistical workers in any other industry? To enable people to still buy groceries, there's all kinds of workers in that chain.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Companies who force people to sign away any rights should be severely punished. Of course that would impact the likelihood of getting hired in practice, but it is exactly this behavior why we must force all other people to adhere to the rules without giving them the choice. Absolutely detrimental to society and it should be checked if companies behaving that way should face existential fines.
whoisjuan 7y ago
The faster the automation of these types of jobs can happen the better. This crisis is showing us that. People worry about the loss of jobs due to automation but humanity has to evolve to create new professional lines with new types of employment that don't involve things like someone packing boxes or transporting goods.
sharadov 7y ago
What's new?

99 points by djhaskin987 7y ago

Ha, I had a completely opposite connotation to the headline and was briefly confused when I read the body. In the couple of large factories I know of operators, mechanics, and others generally are thrilled with overtime, so I thought this was supposed to be a good thing. But the article body spun it very negatively. I wonder what the sentiment is in the factories there. Maybe it's different in the UK.

frostwhale 7y ago
Had the same reaction. Its forced overtime so maybe they'll complain? But with the virus hitting, if correct safety precautions are taken the extra cash seems like a good thing? We'd need to actually talk to Amazon workers for their opinions. Also important how Amazon responds if a worker doesn't want the overtime.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  As it currently stands the UK still has the EU 48hr working week so you can opt out of working more than 48hrs and in theory not be punished for it, in practice enforcing that has been hit and miss over the years with punitive measures been hard to prove at times.
bo0tzz 7y ago
Voluntary overtime in a well unionized job that pays adequately for the extra effort seems a long way to me from being forced to work more at an exploitative amazon warehouse.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  I highly encourage you to talk to people who have worked in unions for 20, 30 years. The unions set a lot of rules, those rules can be confusing, and unions tend to take hours from newer people so that older people can have them. Unions can also force people into overtime (as much as any other employer). That's not to say that all unions are bad, but unions are not wholesale good nor evil, they're simply a different mechanism. Amazon likewise is it's own mechanism, and it seems to vary heavily depending on the warehouse. From the workers I've talked with in our local warehouses, they typically like it - but our warehouses are also open for tours so they probably get treated a bit better than others.
whatshisface 7y ago
I would like to see some kind of survey of Amazon workers to find out what they're thinking. All we ever get are news articles reporting a simple fact (good I guess) and surrounding it with either positive or negative language choices (not as useful).

rayvd 7y ago

Amazon is hiring 100,000 in the US to meet the demand and increasing wages to help with retention. Last I checked, employment and OT was voluntary. This is all good stuff.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
If your state has expanded unemployment to cover COVID-19, and your unemployment would be more than what Amazon would pay (or even the same or less, if you don't want to subject yourself to Amazon Fulfillment working conditions), it makes more sense to collect the unemployment for as long as the government will provide it (state unemployment coffers are somewhat solid at the moment, and the federal government is going to backstop them similar to the 2008 GFC if Congress can get the emergency bill passed). I don't have a comprehensive list at the moment, but I do know Washington state, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Maryland, and California have expanded benefits. If you or someone you know is impacted, check with your local state's governor's office and the Dept of Unemployment and file as soon as you're eligible, including food stamps and Medicaid if also eligible for those programs.
- inetknght 7y ago
  You have no idea how unemployment works, do you? Unemployment requires that you're actively seeking work. You're no longer eligible for unemployment if you turn down an offer.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    [removed in lieu of FireBeyond's superior sibling comment]
    - otterley 7y ago
      > I suggest applying for airline roles first you qualify for (if you prefer unemployment to working a suboptimal job at Amazon), at least until they're nationalized in the next 8 weeks. Did I miss a news article about this? Or are you just speculating? Moreover, airline roles are going to be the last to open up. It's going to take a long time for airlines to return to their former capacity, and their employees who were furloughed or laid off are going to be recalled first.

ISL 7y ago

Giving logistics line-workers priority just behind healthcare workers in testing and PPE would make sense. We need logistics infrastructure to stay up, and we need the general populace to trust it.

glup 7y ago

I am worried about this: Long hours means stress and stress means susceptibility to illness. And besides the first-order problem of these workers getting sick, I really don't think we want to take down an increasingly important part of the supply chain for tons of people.

Tepix 7y ago
Which is why they are trying to hire an additional 100,000 people.
ajross 7y ago
How about we celebrate them as the heroes they are and get our government to help out where needed? Ditto, frankly, for gig economy saviors running around delivering for GrubHub et. al. There's no reason these need to be subsistence level trash jobs. If we really care, now is the time to fix that at the regulatory level.
dumbfounder 7y ago
Think of all the people that are worried about getting food and other necessities? My family is in quarantine and we couldn't get Peapod to come for a week so we ordered some emergency food on Amazon and then were able to get Whole Foods delivery (after a lot of trying) to come say day. Now I can sleep better at night until we start running out again. It's all a balancing act, but I am very thankful that Amazon is still out there delivering to the masses. I think it would be a much worse situation without them.
- Moru 7y ago
  Here in Sweden we have food delivery from most stores since a long time. Mostly meant for older people but becoming mainstream lately. But now private people started announcing free help with shopping on Facebook and similar. Just came home from helping a neighbour with shopping. We can manage just fine without amazon if we just help each other now and then.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago

duxup 7y ago

Amazon is a key part of the general system of logistics of getting stuff to people now. So yeah it would make sense that OT is going to be a thing. The article is sort of wishy washy on exactly what is going on though, it talks about voluntary and "condition of employment" OT. I've worked in industries where OT was celebrated by employees and a lack of it was actually seen as a huge problem. I'm not 100% sure everyone's response to OT will be identical.

pmoriarty 7y ago
"I've worked in industries where OT was celebrated by employees and a lack of it was actually seen as a huge problem." The only way this makes sense to me is if employees are directly or indirectly compensated for working overtime. If they're not, then that kind of attitude is pathological.
- duxup 7y ago
  They were paid extra for OT.
- Turing_Machine 7y ago
  Hourly employees in the United States are paid at a rate of 150% their base rate for every hour after 40.
Frost1x 7y ago
Most who celebrate overtime get paid more. If you're not eligible for overtime (I'd say most who frequent this site), it's not in your interest to work overtime because there's little incentive to do so. If you're salaried and exempt, it's typically in your best interests to work the least amount you can. Most people who celebrate how much of a "hard worker" and wear 50-60 regular work weeks like badges of honor that aren't being compensated extra drank the corporate culture koolaid their HR/HR management offered them, from my experience. It's an entirely different story if you're working more and being compensated more for that work. In that case you're not being taken advantage of (hopefully) and I say, let that person decide what amount of work is appropriate for them. Businesses aren't paying you any more than they can get away with so don't do them any favors either.

threatofrain 7y ago

At this point Amazon's logistical performance is a matter of national security. The degree to which Amazon hiccups is the degree to which the nation is unnerved.

jrd259 7y ago

Amazon engineer here. Many of us (engineers, data analysts, fulfillment center associates) are working more hours to cope with extremely high demand coupled with border closures and extra delays in the road system. This is, I think, good for humanity. If your local store is out of stuff, maybe Amazon can bring it to you, and in any case you don't have to leave your house.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Are engineers and other traditionally exempt status workers being compensated for these additional hours?
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  Certainly not
  - shard972 7y ago
    Sly Besos, he knows how to hussle and make a buck!
- lboc 7y ago
  I know a rhetorical question when I see one :)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
  No. When I worked there we would do a week of pager duty that frequently required 70-80 hours and received no overtime or compensation of any kind.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  When I interviewed there (approx. 2012), I asked every person I met with about how many hours, on average, they worked per week. Every single one of them gave me a non-answer; most simply answered a different question I didnt ask. If there isn't an expectation of a consistent 40 hour work week, then it is highly unlikely that there will be any bonus for working extra during this time period.

beaker52 7y ago

Border Force staff are being (asked/forced) to work overtime specified in their contracts. Why are we so quick to hate on Amazon, who actually deliver things that we're going to need?

newprint 7y ago
Did it specify that there is a contagious deadly virus going around and people should be going no contact ? I Bet, it didn't.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  So do you think grocery stores should just shut down? What about their workers, or the workers at their warehouses/logistics companies?
Hokusai 7y ago
> Why are we so quick to hate on Amazon, who actually deliver things that we're going to need? Because Amazon is using desperate people to sign abusive contracts and then make them work risking their lives and loved ones to increase an already huge profit. > who actually deliver things that we're going to need? This post is full of this propaganda from Amazon. Who said that they are delivering first necessity items? Who said that it is better to have one person touching thousands of packages and sending to people's homes is a good idea? Amazon is nos just being a bad player in the job market but also it is damaging the much needed rational on-line debate. Please, keep yourself safe and help society by staying home when asked by the authorities. It is not just about you, but also others.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > Who said that it is better to have one person touching thousands of packages and sending to people's homes is a good idea? A small number of interacting people + most people hiding at home, is WAY better than having everyone still going out there.
- Turing_Machine 7y ago

Hokusai 7y ago

> Workers at Amazon's UK warehouses are being told to work overtime to tackle huge demand due to the coronavirus pandemic, despite government calls to restrict social contact. Amazon should be held responsible for all the damage that they do to their employees. > She pointed out that under Working Time Regulations in the UK, overtime is limited to a maximum of 48 hours per week, averaged over a 17-week period. Workers can "opt out" of the maximum weekly limit, however, and some are required to do so as a condition of employment. Any right that you can opt-out it is not a right at all. This is why the survival rate for the poor and the right is going to be different. In our modern society we have the resources for taking care of everybody, it is just greed and malice that allow for this situations.

TulliusCicero 7y ago
> Amazon should be held responsible for all the damage that they do to their employees. I'm confused, Amazon ships all kinds of things, and people still need to be able to buy stuff. How is this different from logistical workers in any other industry? To enable people to still buy groceries, there's all kinds of workers in that chain.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Companies who force people to sign away any rights should be severely punished. Of course that would impact the likelihood of getting hired in practice, but it is exactly this behavior why we must force all other people to adhere to the rules without giving them the choice. Absolutely detrimental to society and it should be checked if companies behaving that way should face existential fines.

whoisjuan 7y ago

The faster the automation of these types of jobs can happen the better. This crisis is showing us that. People worry about the loss of jobs due to automation but humanity has to evolve to create new professional lines with new types of employment that don't involve things like someone packing boxes or transporting goods.

sharadov 7y ago

What's new?