7 ms·

PayPal Freezes Support Account For Bradley Manning

83 points by gst 16y ago

RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
Related: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259673 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259673 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259195 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259195 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259121 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259121 (not that I don't appreciate the upvotes (thank you!), but I sometimes find it a little depressing when I get more votes for cross-referencing items like this than for original work that provides real information: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259761 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259761 )
- kmfrk 16y ago
  Are you still creating these comments with an automated script, or are you doing it manually? I recall pg banning a script that did the exact same thing, but I can't recalled how that discussion ended.
  - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
    I don't know of PG banning a script. He never banned mine, but I never let mine run uncontrolled. But no, I'm doing this "by hand" now. My memory makes it easy to spot duplicates, my work flow makes it fast to create the text. When I care. I'm starting to care less, and letting lots of repeats, duplicates and re-hashes go unremarked. For example, suddenly there are lotsof items about networking. They should all be tied together, but I really can't be bothered. HN is potentially a brilliant resource, but it's being squandered. Saddens me a little, but having been mauled for experimenting with a way that might have improved it, I'm reluctant to bother again.
    - orky56 16y ago
      Feels like a paper newspaper. Filled with amazing information that you take the time to read. However, when you want to recall any of it, it's too late since it's already in some landfill somewhere. I think it is up to the community to create pages outside HN that compile the information and take it one step further. After all, it needs to provide additional value to those who have already read the articles individually.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - gbhn 16y ago
      How about an "hntopics.com" site where you collect these duplicates? Something merging comment threads would be interesting, but even just "here are wikileaks articles that have made it to the front page" kind of organization with links would be really interesting. Annotating the threads with links would be useful, but perhaps that's overstepping a boundary?
- srean 16y ago
  I think your automated script was very helpful. I would urge you to bring it back. Particularly now that I distinctly feel that duplicates have been on the rise. By duplicate I do not mean the exact url are resubmitted but articles or announcements that have a huge overlap in content.
  - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
    I agree that there's a large rise in duplication of story, without necessarily a duplication of URL. Many more people, many more feeds, one feed has a story, the others all pick it up, suddenly it everywhere, and several are submitted. Not sure what the "right" solution is. I'm still thinking about it. And thanks for the support. It's appreciated.
jbooth 16y ago
I still can't believe that this guy is basically being tortured before trial with the solitary confinement regime that they have him under. I know that military justice is different than civilian justice but I'd still think punishment requires a trial. And punitive solitary should be on the wrong side of "cruel and unusual" for any crime up to and including treason -- if it's capital, you can kill them, but you can't do so cruelly or unusually.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  I don't know about this particular case, but as somebody who served in the military, I always find it odd when folks talk about military member's civil rights. Do they realize that the military can and will take lives? That simple things like your smoking habits can get people killed? That you give up all sorts of things when you put the uniform on? Don't get me wrong -- I didn't like any of that. And I was in the infantry, which is much more about military discipline and foundational stuff. I think a lot of folks look at the military and think of guys living in dorms and doing jobs that involve pushing a lot of buttons. In that case, those folks begin to look a lot like anybody else going to work. So we expect them to have a similar work and legal environment as the rest of us. Like I said, I'm not trying to pass judgment on Manning in this comment or try to figure out what the appropriate type of incarceration would be for him. I just find people's attitudes towards the military very -- weird.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Not being tortured is a human right. Full stop. This isn't about whether the punishment for losing your rifle is excessive, this is a black and white issue. Punishment before trial == wrong. Torture == wrong. Both are against the constitution. And I bet nobody even gets in trouble for this.
    - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
      You're looking for an argument and a rant and that's not my intent. Nobody said anything about torture being okay.
rbanffy 16y ago
The same way PayPal is free to choose whether it does business with anyone, we can also choose whether we want to do business with them.
- dhimes 16y ago
  Not so for US companies. They are not free to choose, for instance, to not do business based on certain characteristics (race or sex, for example). Don't be so quick to give up the ship just because it's "business." The companies enjoy a relatively stable environment: roads, power grid, and security do to US soldiers willing to risk their lives. In my mind it's perfectly acceptable to make them play by certain rules. If they don't like it let them go run their business in Libya.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    > They are not free to choose, for instance, to not do business based on certain characteristics All they'll do is come up with excuses and drain our energy. Getting dragged through a legal battle is not fun. The most effective action here is to make as many people stop doing business with them as possible. I wonder if it would be possible to set up as many accounts as viable in the name of members of the association to receive donations for a unified fund. That would substantially increase their administrative overhead. Asymmetrical warfare is great.
    - dhimes 16y ago
      I like the way you think. Unfortunately, they have a certain leverage in this space. I'm not sure that getting the market to act in a unified manner is a viable long term strategies against this class of problems in the long term. I'm speaking speculatively, of course, because this is kind of new and it's a bit early to bring in the gov, but regulations have their place. That's how we act in a unified manner not as a market, but as a supplier of their platform. In their mind, they supply a platform which allows businesses like mine to run. In my mind, I (we) supply the platform (the country and infrastructure) that allows their business to run. That means I get a say in how they conduct business, and I'm not opposed to using it (gov't intervention) if I need to, in principle. But I agree with your point that it is a longer battle to work through the government (and often by the time you are getting the regulation you are looking for the key players have written so many loopholes it's pathetic).
jefe78 16y ago
Its a wonder people still use the service after articles like this come to light. Its not the first time Paypal has pulled this stunt. A mass boycott isn't out of order.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- citricsquid 16y ago
  > A mass boycott isn't out of order. Okay, I'll boycott Paypal and use... oh wait, no alternatives :(
  - jefe78 16y ago
    So make one... this is HN after all. EDIT - Make one and I'll signup. There is your first client.
    - CamperBob 16y ago
      OK, I've made one. It's at www. -- wait, what's this, somebody at the door from a law firm? Patents? Subpoenas? Preliminary injunctions...? Help!
    - citricsquid 16y ago
      There's things you can make with will power and desire, there are things that need insane amounts of money and influence to make. This is the latter.
- Cadsby 16y ago
  PayPal gets away with a lot of ridiculous behavior because it gets to act like a bank, without being constrained by any of the regulations normally applied to banks. I don't know anyone who has a positive word to say about them. They're unfortunately the only game in town for certain services/transactions.
nas 16y ago
I'm not sure if it mature enough yet but this freezing of a accounts is a reason why I'm interested in bitcoin.
- iwwr 16y ago
  You still need means to transfer from bitcoin to other circulating currencies. There is bitcoin -> mtgox.com -> Liberty Reserve -> bank transfers, or informal transfers via paypal (that can get flagged and frozen, though). As of yet, there are 2-3 sets of transaction fees and flat fees (bank transfers) involved when moving bitcoins into other currencies.
ssclafani 16y ago
PayPal says that they froze the account because they require non profits to associate a bank account with their PayPal account and Courage To Resist has not done this. http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/24/paypal-on-cutting-off-courage-to-resist-this-has-nothing-to-do-with-wikileaks/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/24/paypal-on-cutting-off-coura...
- citricsquid 16y ago
  This is the reason every time, and still people refuse to do it and claim Paypal are big mean thieves.
notahacker 16y ago
I'm assuming they think they're ready for Anonymous this time round...
endtime 16y ago
Can we keep this political crap off of HN please? Yes, I've clicked flag, but that's not public. All the people commenting on this thread implicitly approve of its presence on HN - so I feel a need to state publicly that I don't.
- jdp23 16y ago
  Some of us entrepreneurs are working on business plans involving activists and non-profits. From our perspective, this kind of information is incredibly relevant to startup life and our architectural tradeoffs. So please stop dismissing key aspects of my business as "just politics" and telling people here they shouldn't talk about it.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Some entrepreneurs also deal in cat pictures.
    - OpieCunningham 16y ago
      And if PayPal blocked a cat picture enterprise or Google de-linked them or Yahoo purchased them, that information would be relevant to HN.
  - endtime 16y ago
    That's true for virtually any topic. Your taking offense at my labeling of politics as politics is unreasonable.
- TimothyBurgess 16y ago
  I rarely exercise my ability to downvote but I feel I should let you know that I did for your comment. I appreciate your opposition on the matter, but your comment is entirely based on your opinion, provides little substance, and does not promote any forward thinking whatsoever. I agree entirely with jpd23 that this isn't just "political crap" as it has many, many implications of the state of the world... which greatly affects not just the startup world but everyone. The term hacker is not limited to tech and business... it means analyzing all aspects of life, tearing them apart, figuring out how they work, and making them better.
Natsu 16y ago
The site is giving me an error 403. If anyone else needs it, here's a Google cache link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A//www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/891/1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A...
MediaBehavior 16y ago
Their root redirects to http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/ http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/ ...which is now 403ed. ?Were they using PayPal to pay their host or something?
motters 16y ago
By taking action against Manning, PayPal employees are supporting his continued mistreatment. Anyone who believes this to be immoral should seriously investigate the possibility of trading using Bitcoin rather than Paypal. Unlike PayPal, Bitcoin isn't a walled garden that you can be kicked out of.
defroost 16y ago
This is shameful behavior by PayPal. There is no doubt about it. If everyone with a PayPal account who cares about the unlawful, unjust treatment of Bradley Manning would simply delete their PayPal account and clearly state the reasons why they are doing so in writing, PayPal might act a bit less cowardly. Doubtful, but at some point you have to take a stand.
zemanel 16y ago
http://betterpal.com http://betterpal.com is free :)

83 points by gst 16y ago

Related: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259673 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259673 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259195 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259195 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259121 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259121 (not that I don't appreciate the upvotes (thank you!), but I sometimes find it a little depressing when I get more votes for cross-referencing items like this than for original work that provides real information: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259761 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2259761 )

kmfrk 16y ago
Are you still creating these comments with an automated script, or are you doing it manually? I recall pg banning a script that did the exact same thing, but I can't recalled how that discussion ended.
- RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
  I don't know of PG banning a script. He never banned mine, but I never let mine run uncontrolled. But no, I'm doing this "by hand" now. My memory makes it easy to spot duplicates, my work flow makes it fast to create the text. When I care. I'm starting to care less, and letting lots of repeats, duplicates and re-hashes go unremarked. For example, suddenly there are lotsof items about networking. They should all be tied together, but I really can't be bothered. HN is potentially a brilliant resource, but it's being squandered. Saddens me a little, but having been mauled for experimenting with a way that might have improved it, I'm reluctant to bother again.
  - orky56 16y ago
    Feels like a paper newspaper. Filled with amazing information that you take the time to read. However, when you want to recall any of it, it's too late since it's already in some landfill somewhere. I think it is up to the community to create pages outside HN that compile the information and take it one step further. After all, it needs to provide additional value to those who have already read the articles individually.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - gbhn 16y ago
    How about an "hntopics.com" site where you collect these duplicates? Something merging comment threads would be interesting, but even just "here are wikileaks articles that have made it to the front page" kind of organization with links would be really interesting. Annotating the threads with links would be useful, but perhaps that's overstepping a boundary?
srean 16y ago
I think your automated script was very helpful. I would urge you to bring it back. Particularly now that I distinctly feel that duplicates have been on the rise. By duplicate I do not mean the exact url are resubmitted but articles or announcements that have a huge overlap in content.
- RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
  I agree that there's a large rise in duplication of story, without necessarily a duplication of URL. Many more people, many more feeds, one feed has a story, the others all pick it up, suddenly it everywhere, and several are submitted. Not sure what the "right" solution is. I'm still thinking about it. And thanks for the support. It's appreciated.

jbooth 16y ago

I still can't believe that this guy is basically being tortured before trial with the solitary confinement regime that they have him under. I know that military justice is different than civilian justice but I'd still think punishment requires a trial. And punitive solitary should be on the wrong side of "cruel and unusual" for any crime up to and including treason -- if it's capital, you can kill them, but you can't do so cruelly or unusually.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago
I don't know about this particular case, but as somebody who served in the military, I always find it odd when folks talk about military member's civil rights. Do they realize that the military can and will take lives? That simple things like your smoking habits can get people killed? That you give up all sorts of things when you put the uniform on? Don't get me wrong -- I didn't like any of that. And I was in the infantry, which is much more about military discipline and foundational stuff. I think a lot of folks look at the military and think of guys living in dorms and doing jobs that involve pushing a lot of buttons. In that case, those folks begin to look a lot like anybody else going to work. So we expect them to have a similar work and legal environment as the rest of us. Like I said, I'm not trying to pass judgment on Manning in this comment or try to figure out what the appropriate type of incarceration would be for him. I just find people's attitudes towards the military very -- weird.
- jbooth 16y ago
  Not being tortured is a human right. Full stop. This isn't about whether the punishment for losing your rifle is excessive, this is a black and white issue. Punishment before trial == wrong. Torture == wrong. Both are against the constitution. And I bet nobody even gets in trouble for this.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    You're looking for an argument and a rant and that's not my intent. Nobody said anything about torture being okay.

rbanffy 16y ago

The same way PayPal is free to choose whether it does business with anyone, we can also choose whether we want to do business with them.

dhimes 16y ago
Not so for US companies. They are not free to choose, for instance, to not do business based on certain characteristics (race or sex, for example). Don't be so quick to give up the ship just because it's "business." The companies enjoy a relatively stable environment: roads, power grid, and security do to US soldiers willing to risk their lives. In my mind it's perfectly acceptable to make them play by certain rules. If they don't like it let them go run their business in Libya.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > They are not free to choose, for instance, to not do business based on certain characteristics All they'll do is come up with excuses and drain our energy. Getting dragged through a legal battle is not fun. The most effective action here is to make as many people stop doing business with them as possible. I wonder if it would be possible to set up as many accounts as viable in the name of members of the association to receive donations for a unified fund. That would substantially increase their administrative overhead. Asymmetrical warfare is great.
  - dhimes 16y ago
    I like the way you think. Unfortunately, they have a certain leverage in this space. I'm not sure that getting the market to act in a unified manner is a viable long term strategies against this class of problems in the long term. I'm speaking speculatively, of course, because this is kind of new and it's a bit early to bring in the gov, but regulations have their place. That's how we act in a unified manner not as a market, but as a supplier of their platform. In their mind, they supply a platform which allows businesses like mine to run. In my mind, I (we) supply the platform (the country and infrastructure) that allows their business to run. That means I get a say in how they conduct business, and I'm not opposed to using it (gov't intervention) if I need to, in principle. But I agree with your point that it is a longer battle to work through the government (and often by the time you are getting the regulation you are looking for the key players have written so many loopholes it's pathetic).

jefe78 16y ago

Its a wonder people still use the service after articles like this come to light. Its not the first time Paypal has pulled this stunt. A mass boycott isn't out of order.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
citricsquid 16y ago
> A mass boycott isn't out of order. Okay, I'll boycott Paypal and use... oh wait, no alternatives :(
- jefe78 16y ago
  So make one... this is HN after all. EDIT - Make one and I'll signup. There is your first client.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    OK, I've made one. It's at www. -- wait, what's this, somebody at the door from a law firm? Patents? Subpoenas? Preliminary injunctions...? Help!
  - citricsquid 16y ago
    There's things you can make with will power and desire, there are things that need insane amounts of money and influence to make. This is the latter.
Cadsby 16y ago
PayPal gets away with a lot of ridiculous behavior because it gets to act like a bank, without being constrained by any of the regulations normally applied to banks. I don't know anyone who has a positive word to say about them. They're unfortunately the only game in town for certain services/transactions.

nas 16y ago

I'm not sure if it mature enough yet but this freezing of a accounts is a reason why I'm interested in bitcoin.

iwwr 16y ago
You still need means to transfer from bitcoin to other circulating currencies. There is bitcoin -> mtgox.com -> Liberty Reserve -> bank transfers, or informal transfers via paypal (that can get flagged and frozen, though). As of yet, there are 2-3 sets of transaction fees and flat fees (bank transfers) involved when moving bitcoins into other currencies.

ssclafani 16y ago

PayPal says that they froze the account because they require non profits to associate a bank account with their PayPal account and Courage To Resist has not done this. http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/24/paypal-on-cutting-off-courage-to-resist-this-has-nothing-to-do-with-wikileaks/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/24/paypal-on-cutting-off-coura...

citricsquid 16y ago
This is the reason every time, and still people refuse to do it and claim Paypal are big mean thieves.

notahacker 16y ago

I'm assuming they think they're ready for Anonymous this time round...

endtime 16y ago

Can we keep this political crap off of HN please? Yes, I've clicked flag, but that's not public. All the people commenting on this thread implicitly approve of its presence on HN - so I feel a need to state publicly that I don't.

jdp23 16y ago
Some of us entrepreneurs are working on business plans involving activists and non-profits. From our perspective, this kind of information is incredibly relevant to startup life and our architectural tradeoffs. So please stop dismissing key aspects of my business as "just politics" and telling people here they shouldn't talk about it.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Some entrepreneurs also deal in cat pictures.
  - OpieCunningham 16y ago
    And if PayPal blocked a cat picture enterprise or Google de-linked them or Yahoo purchased them, that information would be relevant to HN.
- endtime 16y ago
  That's true for virtually any topic. Your taking offense at my labeling of politics as politics is unreasonable.
TimothyBurgess 16y ago
I rarely exercise my ability to downvote but I feel I should let you know that I did for your comment. I appreciate your opposition on the matter, but your comment is entirely based on your opinion, provides little substance, and does not promote any forward thinking whatsoever. I agree entirely with jpd23 that this isn't just "political crap" as it has many, many implications of the state of the world... which greatly affects not just the startup world but everyone. The term hacker is not limited to tech and business... it means analyzing all aspects of life, tearing them apart, figuring out how they work, and making them better.

Natsu 16y ago

The site is giving me an error 403. If anyone else needs it, here's a Google cache link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A//www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/891/1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A...

MediaBehavior 16y ago

Their root redirects to http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/ http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/ ...which is now 403ed. ?Were they using PayPal to pay their host or something?

motters 16y ago

By taking action against Manning, PayPal employees are supporting his continued mistreatment. Anyone who believes this to be immoral should seriously investigate the possibility of trading using Bitcoin rather than Paypal. Unlike PayPal, Bitcoin isn't a walled garden that you can be kicked out of.

defroost 16y ago

This is shameful behavior by PayPal. There is no doubt about it. If everyone with a PayPal account who cares about the unlawful, unjust treatment of Bradley Manning would simply delete their PayPal account and clearly state the reasons why they are doing so in writing, PayPal might act a bit less cowardly. Doubtful, but at some point you have to take a stand.

zemanel 16y ago

http://betterpal.com http://betterpal.com is free :)