11 ms·

I'm surprised there's not a single mention of "Microsoft" in this or the npm announcement [1], given the old-evil-history of Microsoft and the new-nice Microsof

I'm surprised there's not a single mention of "Microsoft" in this or the npm announcement [1], given the old-evil-history of Microsoft and the new-nice Microsoft we have today. I would expect that there was at least a mention, considering the reason that most modules in npm are still in ES5 is exactly because of the monopolistic practices that Microsoft followed back in the day which makes Internet Explorer still relevant. Not negative, not positive comment. Just surprising there was no mention. And I do think Microsoft is doing a great job recently with Open Source in general. [1] https://blog.npmjs.org/post/612764866888007680/next-phase-montage https://blog.npmjs.org/post/612764866888007680/next-phase-mo...

whoisjuan 7y ago
I mean. It's a subsidiary. I understand your sentiment but mentioning Microsoft would be like signaling that GitHub doesn't have any autonomy which is quite the contrary to what Microsoft said when buying it. So don't expect sudden sincerity on this. There's a reason why they haven't added Microsoft branding to areas like the footer.
- fxtentacle 7y ago
  ... and everyone knows that big corporations always speak purely from their open heart when they sign large acquisition deals.
  - tylerchilds 7y ago
    well now I do ;)
banachtarski 7y ago
I installed Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 on an older machine just now. The MSFT of today is definitely a far cry from the MSFT of yesteryear. Such a thing would have been unheard of 15 years ago.
- fredsted 7y ago
  Embrace, extend, extinguish?
  - Rainymood 7y ago
    Currently in the embrace phase ...
  - kingbirdy 7y ago
    How would MS possibly extinguish linux?
    - kristofferR 7y ago
      Ballmer would have suggested chemotherapy.
    - msla 7y ago
      They can't. That's why I hate people using that chestnut in relation to Linux: It doesn't work for two reasons which stick out at me. Reason one is because Linux is GPL'd, Microsoft can't extend Linux without giving its extensions back to the community. Reason two is because Linux is already established in multiple realms, so Microsoft can't bully its way into dominance. Microsoft has a respectable presence in server rooms, but it isn't absolutely dominant by a long shot. Microsoft probably has something going on in the embedded/hobbyist SBC space, but there's no path for them to dominate there. And, FWIW, Linux owns the supercomputer world. I also can't see IBM falling over itself to put Windows on mainframes.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    My prediction, that my IT department hates to hear, is that Windows is going away. Microsoft doesn't want to be Microsoft anymore; it wants to be Oracle and IBM and primarily make money off of business consulting and the cloud. I think Windows will eventually become a presentation and slowly-phased-out compatibility layer on top of Linux, similar to the way macOS became Unix, but even less different than its underlying OS. However, it should be noted that I'm not very good at predicting things.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
Microsoft is aware of their reputation. So much that they even have a policy of not allowing Microsoft+Github co-brand promotions. They want the Github brand to stay strong instead of being diluted into some mix of Github and Microsoft.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  Sleez'n their way into our hearts. I can't say I really blame them, but god I hate it all.
  - epicide 7y ago
    What does a trustworthy Microsoft look like to you?
    - sam_lowry_ 7y ago
      Divided into a handful of independent companies, maybe?
    - hajile 7y ago
      Chapter 7 Bankruptcy where they get acquired by a newly-reformed Sun Microsystems (where no stock is owned by Oracle or Oracle shareholders). EDIT: I'm mostly kidding, but you can't really expect true change of morals when the vast majority of the upper management is the same under the new CEO as under the old one.
      - ChuckMcM 7y ago
        As a former Sun employee I love this comment, but in all fairness Sun did have its own level of sleaze in the C suite (neither Eric Schmidt nor Scott McNealy would really do well as ethical leader exemplars) That said, I'm thinking Moon Microsystems :-) Not as big or as hot as Sun. (ok that is a bad punalogy) I did get the domain though, it was available and I couldn't resist.
        7y ago
pseudorandomguy 7y ago
My fear might probably be unfounded, but NPM is an integral part of the JS ecosystem. And given MicroSoft has .NET Core, I have a strange feeling that they'll concentrate on npm less.
- sebazzz 7y ago
  I think they view it as way to make Core more reliable. Core relies community developed - npm hosted - tools like gulp and webpack. Unlike the full Framework, Core doesn't have "built-in" or "endorsed" bundling solution.
- ethomson 7y ago
  Product Manager at GitHub here - I'll be the Product Manager for npm when the acquisition closes. I agree - npm is definitely an integral part of the JavaScript ecosystem. The npm package registry will remain free for public projects. We're going to work to ensure that the service is stable and accessible, and ready to serve the next million packages. This is independent of what Microsoft's doing with .NET Core. I'm excited about the work that they're doing, but this isn't going to stop us from making sure that npm is outstanding.
  - Nullabillity 7y ago
    > I'm excited about the work that they're doing Sounds like it won't be shielded from the cult-like MS mentality, then.
    - justinmeiners 7y ago
      ? This is regular PR speak.
reaperducer 7y ago
I'm surprised there's not a single mention of "Microsoft" in this or the npm announcement [1], given the old-evil-history of Microsoft and the new-nice Microsoft we have today. Maybe Microsoft's reputation is exactly the reason why it was left out of this announcement. Sometimes a brand is so tarnished that the owner tries to hide it from the people who hate it. (For example, Comcast → Xfinity. I expect Monsanto to go the same way and become Bayer.)
- chang1 7y ago
  The latter already happened[1]. Bayer offloaded most of it's ag business (to BASF) and replaced it with Monsanto. Monsanto has been rebranded "Bayer Crop Science". Although I'm guessing much for the same reason, Monsanto never rebranded any of the dozens of seed companies it acquired over the years (e.g. Dekalb, Seminis, Asgrow, etc.) The same also goes for Charter → Spectrum. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Sale_to_Bayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Sale_to_Bayer
  - Dahoon 7y ago
    >Monsanto has been rebranded "Bayer Crop Science" When the company that commercialized heroin and was complicit in the holocaust is a better brand you really got a PR problem.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ksec 7y ago
  And I was wondering what was going through Facebook's mind when they decide to have Instagram / WhatsApp by Facebook Brand.
dwightgunning 7y ago
My first reaction was ... “so Microsoft”. I’m with you on the positive path Microsoft have been on with OSS but also recall the not-so-recent history. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
oever 7y ago
Microsoft wants to host as much information as possible so it can collect data on developers and users. It is very hard to avoid giving data to Microsoft. GitHub, NPM, LinkedIn, Office 365, Teams, the lock-in is still alive. A decentralized web or a non-for-profit like Wikipedia is a much better model for these infrastructure projects.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- divbzero 7y ago
  Git was designed to be decentralized from the start. Is there a way to revitalize that heritage? Discoverability and pull requests are two big benefits that GitHub has offered. Could we create decentralized open source solutions to provide those benefits? Are there other benefits that we’d need to provide to have viable alternatives to centralization?
  - phoe-krk 7y ago
    https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed is one attempt at that.
  - Conan_Kudo 7y ago
    Supporting and using Git forges that support decentralized development, such as Pagure[0], would be a good way to do so. Pagure supports submitting pull requests with Git repos on any server (regardless of whether it's running Pagure or not) with its remote pull requests feature. Issues, docs, and pull request metadata are all stored as git repos using JSON files as data, making it easy and portable to other Pagure instances and easy to convert for any other system. As far as I know, Pagure is now the only Git forge software packaged in all major Linux distributions (Fedora+EPEL[1], openSUSE[2], Mageia[3], Debian[4], Ubuntu[5], Arch Linux AUR[6]). It'd be nice to see people interested in this helping to build a future supporting portable, decentralized development. [0]: https://pagure.io/pagure https://pagure.io/pagure [1]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/pagure https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/pagure [2]: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/pagure https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/pag... [3]: http://madb.mageia.org/package/show/name/pagure/release/cauldron/application/0 http://madb.mageia.org/package/show/name/pagure/release/caul... [4]: https://packages.debian.org/sid/pagure https://packages.debian.org/sid/pagure [5]: https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/pagure https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/pagure [6]: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pagure/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pagure/
mundo 7y ago
Yes, why is this not titled "Microsoft acquires npm"?
- wutwutwutwut 7y ago
  Would be super strange if titles always referred to the top-most parent company. Every time Google does something the title should be referring to Alphabet? Please no.
  - smichel17 7y ago
    The other way around, and in fact it already is that way -- we often say stuff like "Waymo, Google's self-driving car project", because we know who really runs the alphabet show.
chaostheory 7y ago
This is great news for people forced to use Windows. JavaScript being a 1st class citizen on MS platforms is being even more cemented. It'd be great if Microsoft moved faster with Python integration into the MS ecosystem like SQL Server.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  Yup, currently MacOS is still better IMO for web development but I really would like MS to improve on that regard.
haecceity 7y ago
> considering the reason that most modules in npm are still in ES5 is exactly because of the monopolistic practices that Microsoft followed back in the day which makes Internet Explorer still relevant. Could you tell me more about that?
bad_user 7y ago
I don't follow. Why would there be a mention of Microsoft? That many modules in npm are ES5 is completely irrelevant for npm's purpose. And Microsoft changed, how exactly? And why are you advertising for them?
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  Microsoft bought Github less than 2 years ago.
- tedmiston 7y ago
  Microsoft acquired GitHub. https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-billion/ https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-g...
  - bad_user 7y ago
    Yes, so what's the relevance?

whoisjuan 7y ago

I mean. It's a subsidiary. I understand your sentiment but mentioning Microsoft would be like signaling that GitHub doesn't have any autonomy which is quite the contrary to what Microsoft said when buying it. So don't expect sudden sincerity on this. There's a reason why they haven't added Microsoft branding to areas like the footer.

fxtentacle 7y ago
... and everyone knows that big corporations always speak purely from their open heart when they sign large acquisition deals.
- tylerchilds 7y ago
  well now I do ;)

banachtarski 7y ago

I installed Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 on an older machine just now. The MSFT of today is definitely a far cry from the MSFT of yesteryear. Such a thing would have been unheard of 15 years ago.

fredsted 7y ago
Embrace, extend, extinguish?
- Rainymood 7y ago
  Currently in the embrace phase ...
- kingbirdy 7y ago
  How would MS possibly extinguish linux?
  - kristofferR 7y ago
    Ballmer would have suggested chemotherapy.
  - msla 7y ago
    They can't. That's why I hate people using that chestnut in relation to Linux: It doesn't work for two reasons which stick out at me. Reason one is because Linux is GPL'd, Microsoft can't extend Linux without giving its extensions back to the community. Reason two is because Linux is already established in multiple realms, so Microsoft can't bully its way into dominance. Microsoft has a respectable presence in server rooms, but it isn't absolutely dominant by a long shot. Microsoft probably has something going on in the embedded/hobbyist SBC space, but there's no path for them to dominate there. And, FWIW, Linux owns the supercomputer world. I also can't see IBM falling over itself to put Windows on mainframes.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  My prediction, that my IT department hates to hear, is that Windows is going away. Microsoft doesn't want to be Microsoft anymore; it wants to be Oracle and IBM and primarily make money off of business consulting and the cloud. I think Windows will eventually become a presentation and slowly-phased-out compatibility layer on top of Linux, similar to the way macOS became Unix, but even less different than its underlying OS. However, it should be noted that I'm not very good at predicting things.

FooBarWidget 7y ago

Microsoft is aware of their reputation. So much that they even have a policy of not allowing Microsoft+Github co-brand promotions. They want the Github brand to stay strong instead of being diluted into some mix of Github and Microsoft.

nixpulvis 7y ago
Sleez'n their way into our hearts. I can't say I really blame them, but god I hate it all.
- epicide 7y ago
  What does a trustworthy Microsoft look like to you?
  - sam_lowry_ 7y ago
    Divided into a handful of independent companies, maybe?
  - hajile 7y ago
    Chapter 7 Bankruptcy where they get acquired by a newly-reformed Sun Microsystems (where no stock is owned by Oracle or Oracle shareholders). EDIT: I'm mostly kidding, but you can't really expect true change of morals when the vast majority of the upper management is the same under the new CEO as under the old one.
    - ChuckMcM 7y ago
      As a former Sun employee I love this comment, but in all fairness Sun did have its own level of sleaze in the C suite (neither Eric Schmidt nor Scott McNealy would really do well as ethical leader exemplars) That said, I'm thinking Moon Microsystems :-) Not as big or as hot as Sun. (ok that is a bad punalogy) I did get the domain though, it was available and I couldn't resist.
      - 7y ago

pseudorandomguy 7y ago

My fear might probably be unfounded, but NPM is an integral part of the JS ecosystem. And given MicroSoft has .NET Core, I have a strange feeling that they'll concentrate on npm less.

sebazzz 7y ago
I think they view it as way to make Core more reliable. Core relies community developed - npm hosted - tools like gulp and webpack. Unlike the full Framework, Core doesn't have "built-in" or "endorsed" bundling solution.
ethomson 7y ago
Product Manager at GitHub here - I'll be the Product Manager for npm when the acquisition closes. I agree - npm is definitely an integral part of the JavaScript ecosystem. The npm package registry will remain free for public projects. We're going to work to ensure that the service is stable and accessible, and ready to serve the next million packages. This is independent of what Microsoft's doing with .NET Core. I'm excited about the work that they're doing, but this isn't going to stop us from making sure that npm is outstanding.
- Nullabillity 7y ago
  > I'm excited about the work that they're doing Sounds like it won't be shielded from the cult-like MS mentality, then.
  - justinmeiners 7y ago
    ? This is regular PR speak.

reaperducer 7y ago

I'm surprised there's not a single mention of "Microsoft" in this or the npm announcement [1], given the old-evil-history of Microsoft and the new-nice Microsoft we have today. Maybe Microsoft's reputation is exactly the reason why it was left out of this announcement. Sometimes a brand is so tarnished that the owner tries to hide it from the people who hate it. (For example, Comcast → Xfinity. I expect Monsanto to go the same way and become Bayer.)

chang1 7y ago
The latter already happened[1]. Bayer offloaded most of it's ag business (to BASF) and replaced it with Monsanto. Monsanto has been rebranded "Bayer Crop Science". Although I'm guessing much for the same reason, Monsanto never rebranded any of the dozens of seed companies it acquired over the years (e.g. Dekalb, Seminis, Asgrow, etc.) The same also goes for Charter → Spectrum. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Sale_to_Bayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Sale_to_Bayer
- Dahoon 7y ago
  >Monsanto has been rebranded "Bayer Crop Science" When the company that commercialized heroin and was complicit in the holocaust is a better brand you really got a PR problem.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ksec 7y ago
And I was wondering what was going through Facebook's mind when they decide to have Instagram / WhatsApp by Facebook Brand.

dwightgunning 7y ago

My first reaction was ... “so Microsoft”. I’m with you on the positive path Microsoft have been on with OSS but also recall the not-so-recent history. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.

oever 7y ago

Microsoft wants to host as much information as possible so it can collect data on developers and users. It is very hard to avoid giving data to Microsoft. GitHub, NPM, LinkedIn, Office 365, Teams, the lock-in is still alive. A decentralized web or a non-for-profit like Wikipedia is a much better model for these infrastructure projects.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
divbzero 7y ago
Git was designed to be decentralized from the start. Is there a way to revitalize that heritage? Discoverability and pull requests are two big benefits that GitHub has offered. Could we create decentralized open source solutions to provide those benefits? Are there other benefits that we’d need to provide to have viable alternatives to centralization?
- phoe-krk 7y ago
  https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed is one attempt at that.
- Conan_Kudo 7y ago
  Supporting and using Git forges that support decentralized development, such as Pagure[0], would be a good way to do so. Pagure supports submitting pull requests with Git repos on any server (regardless of whether it's running Pagure or not) with its remote pull requests feature. Issues, docs, and pull request metadata are all stored as git repos using JSON files as data, making it easy and portable to other Pagure instances and easy to convert for any other system. As far as I know, Pagure is now the only Git forge software packaged in all major Linux distributions (Fedora+EPEL[1], openSUSE[2], Mageia[3], Debian[4], Ubuntu[5], Arch Linux AUR[6]). It'd be nice to see people interested in this helping to build a future supporting portable, decentralized development. [0]: https://pagure.io/pagure https://pagure.io/pagure [1]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/pagure https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/pagure [2]: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/pagure https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/pag... [3]: http://madb.mageia.org/package/show/name/pagure/release/cauldron/application/0 http://madb.mageia.org/package/show/name/pagure/release/caul... [4]: https://packages.debian.org/sid/pagure https://packages.debian.org/sid/pagure [5]: https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/pagure https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/pagure [6]: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pagure/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pagure/

mundo 7y ago

Yes, why is this not titled "Microsoft acquires npm"?

wutwutwutwut 7y ago
Would be super strange if titles always referred to the top-most parent company. Every time Google does something the title should be referring to Alphabet? Please no.
- smichel17 7y ago
  The other way around, and in fact it already is that way -- we often say stuff like "Waymo, Google's self-driving car project", because we know who really runs the alphabet show.

chaostheory 7y ago

This is great news for people forced to use Windows. JavaScript being a 1st class citizen on MS platforms is being even more cemented. It'd be great if Microsoft moved faster with Python integration into the MS ecosystem like SQL Server.

arvinsim 7y ago
Yup, currently MacOS is still better IMO for web development but I really would like MS to improve on that regard.

haecceity 7y ago

> considering the reason that most modules in npm are still in ES5 is exactly because of the monopolistic practices that Microsoft followed back in the day which makes Internet Explorer still relevant. Could you tell me more about that?

bad_user 7y ago

I don't follow. Why would there be a mention of Microsoft? That many modules in npm are ES5 is completely irrelevant for npm's purpose. And Microsoft changed, how exactly? And why are you advertising for them?

chrisweekly 7y ago
Microsoft bought Github less than 2 years ago.
tedmiston 7y ago
Microsoft acquired GitHub. https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-billion/ https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-g...
- bad_user 7y ago
  Yes, so what's the relevance?