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Why might doing this to a Chinese firm feel justified? (I understand this question doesn’t matter to Trump’s true believers.) Finding the vaccine had better to

Why might doing this to a Chinese firm feel justified? (I understand this question doesn’t matter to Trump’s true believers.) Finding the vaccine had better to be international teamwork. China is the ground zero in this pandemic. It has a lot offer and lose. I would argue China is a big ally in this case.

allovernow 7y ago
>Why might doing this to a Chinese firm feel justified? Because the CCP, like any authoritarian, communist party, puts itself first. Face is everything when you rely on authority to rule more than a billion people. Word is hospitals are still full in China, that the closing of the temporary hospitals is textbook propaganda, and that no new cases are being reported because doctors and officials have been disappeared for breaking unnofficial rules not to report. It's the same kind of fuckery born of perverse incentives that gave us great hits like the 4 pests and the general gaming of incentives that was rife in the Soviet Union. People still seem to have this image of world governments as these benevolent, ultra competent forces for good, believing that only the American system is faltering, if anything. Ironically, this is just an indication that decades of exKGB and probably Chinese propaganda are working. Now is not the time to put your faith in the institutions of man. They are staffed and run by people like you and me - far worse in many cases, they are not technically educated and in the US we've been operating on charisma more than merit for decades. Don't believe me? Watch as us states start shutting down, one by one, just like Europe, even though we had 2 months warning to prepare for this.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  EVERY country puts itself first. International cooperation happens either when they have capacity to spare, or when it is mutually beneficial. Your demonization of China based on its political system is based on stereotypes of what "evil communists/authoritarian states" are in theory, not on what they actually are in practice. China is not comparable to the Soviet Union. Which words say things in China are still out of control, and why do you trust those words? I have family in China, if things are out of control instead of getting better, I would know it. You say all of this right after China donated tons of medical equipment and medical teams to Iran and Italy. I saw how things were in China during the early days of the lockdown, how both people and government cooperated. I will believe my own eyes. Of course, no government is perfect. Mistakes will be made. And some people are corrupt. But none of that means that throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- being overly cynical and declaring all governments as evil -- is the right answer. Now is the time for both people and governments to learn about what cooperation and good governance is about.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    >Your demonization of China based on its political system is based on stereotypes of what "evil communists/authoritarian states" are in theory, not on what they actually are in practice. China is not comparable to the Soviet Union. My demonization of China is based on two months of observation of the Chinese political machine, shutting down critical whistleblowers and locking down all information behind the red firewall. My observation is based on a recent Soviet ancestry and knowledge of human nature. This is not a comparison between the US and CCP. US has its own glaring problems. >have family in China, if things are out of control instead of getting better, I would know it. Then you should know better than anyone here that even your family is strongly incentivized by an Orwellian surveillance system with a social credit score system to lie even to you. I also do not believe that you are arguing in good faith - it is no secret that Chinese astroturfing is all over the internet. >being overly cynical and declaring all governments as evil -- is the right answer. Now is the time for both people and governments to learn about what cooperation and good governance is about. This is literally the government that is imprisoning millions of ethnic Muslims and at best forcing propaganda down their throats. The Soviet union, which is literally the blueprint for the CCP, only fell some 30 years ago. Do not by swayed so easily by shallow propaganda in the form of aid donations - this does not mean that China is actually recovered. The Chinese propaganda apparatus is in full swing. Now is not the time for naivety. This feel good "we're all one people" BS is exactly the kind of well meaning but misguided sentiment that propagandists the world over take advantage of when operating in the west. How could you possibly justify having Chinese news reporting that Americans are racist for closing the border? Why is China saber rattling right now about how the US was the origin of the virus[0]? Open your eyes, I implore you. 0.https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/false-claims-sources-coronavirus-spat-us-china/story?id=69580990 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/false-claims-sources-coronav...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      > Then you should know better than anyone here that even your family is strongly incentivized by an Orwellian surveillance system with a social credit score system to lie even to you. Yeah... No, that's not how it works. Hasn't for 40 years. I was born there. > I also do not believe that you are arguing in good faith - it is no secret that Chinese astroturfing is all over the internet. Check my account history and my github profile. I am a real person. > This is literally the government that is imprisoning millions of ethnic Muslims and at best forcing propaganda down their throats Okay. This claim is true. But I don't think you are viewing this particular situation from the right angle. Check Kim Iversen: https://youtu.be/Ff4YZBi4UTc https://youtu.be/Ff4YZBi4UTc Check CGTN: https://youtu.be/h2yMjbB1q24 https://youtu.be/h2yMjbB1q24 TLDR: Terrorism. For 20 years. 10% of the population is radicalized and thinks killing others is good. Hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded. In part fueled by poverty, in part fueled by radical education. Something clearly must be done. But what? The US chose to bomb muslim countries. China chose to force them to go to school to learn ethics, mandarin, and job skills -- what you call "forcing propaganda down their throat". Now, forcing people to do anything is less than ideal. And they are probably forcing more people than necessary because they can't identify exactly who is radicalized and who isn't. But living in a safe society, where there are no people out to kill you, is ALSO a human right. You can't just ignore this real problem and only focus on the government action part. I am not saying it is all good but the situation is much more different and nuanced than 'China imprisons millions because China is evil'. > Do not by swayed so easily by shallow propaganda in the form of aid donations - this does not mean that China is actually recovered Then shouldn't you be glad that China is over stretching itself? If China is in a bad shape them donating to other countries will destroy China. Never interrupt an enemy who is making a mistake. > Why is China saber rattling right now about how the US was the origin of the virus[0]? China isn't claiming the US is definitely the origin. China says this is a possibility. This is based on DNA research of the virus, as well as timing: 1. the US has more mutations of the virus, while China has fewer. Virologists says that this suggests the strain in China is not the original one, and that the ones in US are older. Or something like that: i am not a virologist so i don't fully understand this. Someone who is more knowledge, please fill in. 2. The start of the virus coincided with some military games event where the US army visited Wuhan. China is not saying the US engineered the virus. It is saying the virus might naturally have started in the US, where it went undetected and brushed away as an abnormally bad flu season. Now, this is still very much speculation and conspiracy theory-y, I will give you that. But the US CDC isn't exactly doing a good job with investigating the general situation in the US population. Seeing how the US media talks about China, and seeing how China has traditionally been very defensive in its communications, I don't think it is weird at all for China to one day have become more assertive.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  > Because the CCP, like any authoritarian, communist party, puts itself first It is the US that is putting itself first in this case though. In addition to that i would claim that pretty much every single government right now is quite authoritarian.
- pergadad 7y ago
  Indeed, obviously China has not stemmed covid. We'll see it come back bigger & more widespread with finger pointing to foreigners.

allovernow 7y ago

>Why might doing this to a Chinese firm feel justified? Because the CCP, like any authoritarian, communist party, puts itself first. Face is everything when you rely on authority to rule more than a billion people. Word is hospitals are still full in China, that the closing of the temporary hospitals is textbook propaganda, and that no new cases are being reported because doctors and officials have been disappeared for breaking unnofficial rules not to report. It's the same kind of fuckery born of perverse incentives that gave us great hits like the 4 pests and the general gaming of incentives that was rife in the Soviet Union. People still seem to have this image of world governments as these benevolent, ultra competent forces for good, believing that only the American system is faltering, if anything. Ironically, this is just an indication that decades of exKGB and probably Chinese propaganda are working. Now is not the time to put your faith in the institutions of man. They are staffed and run by people like you and me - far worse in many cases, they are not technically educated and in the US we've been operating on charisma more than merit for decades. Don't believe me? Watch as us states start shutting down, one by one, just like Europe, even though we had 2 months warning to prepare for this.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
EVERY country puts itself first. International cooperation happens either when they have capacity to spare, or when it is mutually beneficial. Your demonization of China based on its political system is based on stereotypes of what "evil communists/authoritarian states" are in theory, not on what they actually are in practice. China is not comparable to the Soviet Union. Which words say things in China are still out of control, and why do you trust those words? I have family in China, if things are out of control instead of getting better, I would know it. You say all of this right after China donated tons of medical equipment and medical teams to Iran and Italy. I saw how things were in China during the early days of the lockdown, how both people and government cooperated. I will believe my own eyes. Of course, no government is perfect. Mistakes will be made. And some people are corrupt. But none of that means that throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- being overly cynical and declaring all governments as evil -- is the right answer. Now is the time for both people and governments to learn about what cooperation and good governance is about.
- allovernow 7y ago
  >Your demonization of China based on its political system is based on stereotypes of what "evil communists/authoritarian states" are in theory, not on what they actually are in practice. China is not comparable to the Soviet Union. My demonization of China is based on two months of observation of the Chinese political machine, shutting down critical whistleblowers and locking down all information behind the red firewall. My observation is based on a recent Soviet ancestry and knowledge of human nature. This is not a comparison between the US and CCP. US has its own glaring problems. >have family in China, if things are out of control instead of getting better, I would know it. Then you should know better than anyone here that even your family is strongly incentivized by an Orwellian surveillance system with a social credit score system to lie even to you. I also do not believe that you are arguing in good faith - it is no secret that Chinese astroturfing is all over the internet. >being overly cynical and declaring all governments as evil -- is the right answer. Now is the time for both people and governments to learn about what cooperation and good governance is about. This is literally the government that is imprisoning millions of ethnic Muslims and at best forcing propaganda down their throats. The Soviet union, which is literally the blueprint for the CCP, only fell some 30 years ago. Do not by swayed so easily by shallow propaganda in the form of aid donations - this does not mean that China is actually recovered. The Chinese propaganda apparatus is in full swing. Now is not the time for naivety. This feel good "we're all one people" BS is exactly the kind of well meaning but misguided sentiment that propagandists the world over take advantage of when operating in the west. How could you possibly justify having Chinese news reporting that Americans are racist for closing the border? Why is China saber rattling right now about how the US was the origin of the virus[0]? Open your eyes, I implore you. 0.https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/false-claims-sources-coronavirus-spat-us-china/story?id=69580990 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/false-claims-sources-coronav...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    > Then you should know better than anyone here that even your family is strongly incentivized by an Orwellian surveillance system with a social credit score system to lie even to you. Yeah... No, that's not how it works. Hasn't for 40 years. I was born there. > I also do not believe that you are arguing in good faith - it is no secret that Chinese astroturfing is all over the internet. Check my account history and my github profile. I am a real person. > This is literally the government that is imprisoning millions of ethnic Muslims and at best forcing propaganda down their throats Okay. This claim is true. But I don't think you are viewing this particular situation from the right angle. Check Kim Iversen: https://youtu.be/Ff4YZBi4UTc https://youtu.be/Ff4YZBi4UTc Check CGTN: https://youtu.be/h2yMjbB1q24 https://youtu.be/h2yMjbB1q24 TLDR: Terrorism. For 20 years. 10% of the population is radicalized and thinks killing others is good. Hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded. In part fueled by poverty, in part fueled by radical education. Something clearly must be done. But what? The US chose to bomb muslim countries. China chose to force them to go to school to learn ethics, mandarin, and job skills -- what you call "forcing propaganda down their throat". Now, forcing people to do anything is less than ideal. And they are probably forcing more people than necessary because they can't identify exactly who is radicalized and who isn't. But living in a safe society, where there are no people out to kill you, is ALSO a human right. You can't just ignore this real problem and only focus on the government action part. I am not saying it is all good but the situation is much more different and nuanced than 'China imprisons millions because China is evil'. > Do not by swayed so easily by shallow propaganda in the form of aid donations - this does not mean that China is actually recovered Then shouldn't you be glad that China is over stretching itself? If China is in a bad shape them donating to other countries will destroy China. Never interrupt an enemy who is making a mistake. > Why is China saber rattling right now about how the US was the origin of the virus[0]? China isn't claiming the US is definitely the origin. China says this is a possibility. This is based on DNA research of the virus, as well as timing: 1. the US has more mutations of the virus, while China has fewer. Virologists says that this suggests the strain in China is not the original one, and that the ones in US are older. Or something like that: i am not a virologist so i don't fully understand this. Someone who is more knowledge, please fill in. 2. The start of the virus coincided with some military games event where the US army visited Wuhan. China is not saying the US engineered the virus. It is saying the virus might naturally have started in the US, where it went undetected and brushed away as an abnormally bad flu season. Now, this is still very much speculation and conspiracy theory-y, I will give you that. But the US CDC isn't exactly doing a good job with investigating the general situation in the US population. Seeing how the US media talks about China, and seeing how China has traditionally been very defensive in its communications, I don't think it is weird at all for China to one day have become more assertive.
dependenttypes 7y ago
> Because the CCP, like any authoritarian, communist party, puts itself first It is the US that is putting itself first in this case though. In addition to that i would claim that pretty much every single government right now is quite authoritarian.
pergadad 7y ago
Indeed, obviously China has not stemmed covid. We'll see it come back bigger & more widespread with finger pointing to foreigners.