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Just like China, there was a time when Italy had 1 case, then 2 cases, then 4, etc. Italy was unable to stop the spread before reaching a huge level and spread

Just like China, there was a time when Italy had 1 case, then 2 cases, then 4, etc. Italy was unable to stop the spread before reaching a huge level and spreading to other countries. Why blame China for "allowing this virus to spread all around the world" when Italy allowed the same? (Italy even had a warning that it was coming!)

mistermann 7y ago
If it did indeed come from live animals in a wet market, that seems like a potential valid reason for some criticism, although the they did a superb job adapting imho.
mjoin 7y ago
you're missing that China initially suppressed info abt this virus, which caused it to spread. had they reacted immediately, we might be in a much better situation rn
- LeoNatan25 7y ago
  Yes, and so could many countries, including Italy. This is the deal we've been had, and need to look to the future.
- jbay808 7y ago
  That's a very important point if we're discussing the upsides and downsides of censorship, or whether China is a bad country and should feel bad about itself. But if we're looking for an example of how to solve the pandemic, when people point to China as an example, they aren't saying "we should spend a few weeks pretending the virus doesn't exist, threaten doctors who talk about it, order our labs not to study it, and THEN take decisive action". They're saying we should do the stuff that China did, starting from the decisive action part.
  - kisna72 7y ago
    exactly. I don't understand why people are so eager to assign blame when in reality every one would be better of taking the good parts of what China did.
    - paganel 7y ago
      We should assign blame to a drunk driver who hits someone, no matter if he became sober after the accident enough to drive his/her victims to the hospital. There's certainly lots of blame to assign to China and after all this comes back to a "normal" state again the international community should pressure China into eliminating the things that made all this possible: they should be draconic in not allowing things like the Wuhan wet-market be open ever again, all over China, for ever, they should be forthcoming in allowing international experts come and asses things as soon as a new disease manifests itself, they should allow their local medical experts have the upper hand over local Communist officials, at all times.
  - tenpies 7y ago
    Which is why I honestly don't understand why the mainstream media isn't saying "do what Korea/Japan did". Other countries have handled this admirably (e.g. Taiwan and Singapore), but Korea and Japan are larger and had very sudden upward trajectories in infection rates. Both countries acted decisively and they got this under control incredibly quick and with minimal loss of life, all without resorting to extreme authoritarian measures. What China did is not something that other countries may want to replicate, but we should all be replicating the Korean and Japanese measures. Actually we should have been doing it weeks ago instead of pretending that if we didn't test then there would be no cases.
    - babayega2 7y ago
      I'm in Rome and I called my friend in Japan to enquire his whereabouts and he told me there they're not doing the same way Korea did it. Peoples continue to go to work. No mass screening. So cases aren't really reflecting the reality. It's like in USA. But one thing he conceide is Japanese are clean.
    - piggybox 7y ago
      From what I learn, Japan is acting like UK. Nothing like China and Korea at all. They don't want to cancel 2020 Olympics after all...
  - xienze 7y ago
    > They’re saying we should do the stuff that China did, starting from the decisive action part You do realize that some of their “decisive actions” included enforcing quarantine via welded-shut doors, right?[0] I don’t think you’re ready to handle the kind of “decisive action” that China took. 0: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1703503427818 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1703503427818
    - throw_564324 7y ago
      They only did that to people that refused to self quarantine.
      - xienze 7y ago
        Well, I guess that makes it alright then. I don’t think you understand the significance of welding the doors shut... it means if they catch you outside you can’t claim you did it on accident. So, wink wink, they’ll cure you of the virus permanently after that. Again, you’re not ready for Chinese-style “decisive actions.”
        visarga 7y ago
        Don't worry about rights now, if you leave the door open and people walk about they will get even more decisive action from the virus, and gift the virus to others. With the population it has, China could have been in a much much worse shape today were it not for the quarantine.
  - brabel 7y ago
    China was the first to have to handle the issue, so they had the difficult job of figuring out whether this virus was just like the flu (which some people are still claiming even today) or whether it was something to worry about much more than that. Imagine the cost to your credibility if you call it out for a huge danger, and it turns out it is just a new flu variant... The spread to other countries seems to only have started once the Chinese had conclusively shown this virus was very dangerous (and started the lock downs to prevent its spread). Hence, other countries had the benefit of this knowledge which China didn't, yet still failed to act. Some countries like the UK and Sweden even now pretending this is not a big deal and not taking anywhere enough measures to avoid widespread infection rates.
- ksec 7y ago
  >you're missing that China initially suppressed info abt this virus Not only that, refuse to acknowledge, or share any information to international communities. The amount of things they do just to saves faces.
  - adinobro 7y ago
    You mean like making the DNA public, posting statistics daily, sending doctors and resources to other countries to help train ... That kind of not sharing information?
    - makomk 7y ago
      Like pretending it was an unknown disease that showed no sign of person-to-person spread when they'd already sequenced its entire RNA and found cases of it spreading within the community. Like having to be pressured into revealing what little details they did. Like, as I recall, only admitting that it was spreading person-to-person when another country spotted this. That kind of not sharing information.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - adinobro 7y ago
        It is a Novela virus. By definition you don't know anything about it until it is proven. If you don't know the source (which is still unknown) then you cannot verify that it has spread human to human. (They should have assumed that it did) Researches outside of China said there was no evidence of human to human transmission. The first 2 weeks of January were handled rather poorly. But lack of information since then isn't really one of them. What could China have done that would have made you personally happy? People automatically distrust anything they say. What other information could they have provided?
        brabel 7y ago
        When people dislike a certain government or person, they jump to the worst conclusions about them rather quickly. This is extremely dangerous. Imagine a sensitive situation develops where there's weak evidence the victim of your dislike did something that might endanger you or your country... if you immediately jump to conclusions, which you are very likely to do as this thread shows, then the situation would easily develop into a confrontation... this is not hypothetical. With Americans and Chinese (and Russians, Iranians) coming face-to-face in more and more sensitive situations around the world, it's only a matter of time until the mutual distrust will cause one side to pull the trigger under unreasonable circumstances.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
teknologist 7y ago
A bit facetious I know but I don't feel that bat soup or pangolin pie would ever be an element of Italian cuisine
- jacquesm 7y ago
  A bat infecting a pig could easily happen in Italy. Or anywhere else for that matter.
  - teknologist 7y ago
    What we know so far is that it's likely to have started at a wet market in Wuhan where people lived with bats and other wild animals. Chances of cross-infection are much higher in that scenario.
    - adinobro 7y ago
      The virus cannot have started back in November and started at the wet market at the same time. Either one is true or the other is true. People don't live with bats. The animals they farm live near bats.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    No, not even close. Those wet markets are a fucking nightmare. There are truly optimized for pulling new diseases into the human population. Thousands of animals, hundreds of different species, many known to be reservoirs of potential human pathogens, crammed together in close proximity with each other and with humans who eat them. In his interview with Joe Rogan, Michael Osterholm called it "the perfect experiment that no university would let you do": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw Their discussion of wet markets starts at around 1:01:00.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      You are missing the point of my comment. A bat infecting a pig or some other two step is a pre-cursor to many Zoonotic events. Those wet markets are indeed a huge accelerator. But the pre-conditions exist in many places and all it takes is one butcher that isn't paying attention and you've got the ball rolling. Africa and Asia have a lot of this and so are a recurring theme in these very unfortunate stories. But it could happen here, and viruses really don't care about location. Wet markets and bushmeat is how we got SARS and HIV. We're not sure if COVID-19 was really transferred that way, maybe we'll never know. The Swine flu also jumped species in a regular farm. So there are lots of opportunities all over the world, some more dangerous than others.
lbeltrame 7y ago
I blame my own government for this, of course, the same that's getting all the praise and the "calls to responsiblity" from the press. When we had the first cases its only concern was whether a minority party would leave the coalition or not. It wasn't fit for the emergency, any emergency. Unfortunately, that's what we will be stuck with until it's over.
theferalrobot 7y ago
>Just like China, there was a time when Italy had 1 case, then 2 cases, then 4, etc. Just like the spread of fire, the window of opportunity to put it out is right at the beginning. Yes, Italy could put it out when it first came to Italy but they would have to do it many many more times to successfully contain it. China just had to do it once and they failed.
nexuist 7y ago
Doctors and civilians tried to sound the alarm that something was going on, and were silenced until it was too late. To their credit, the CCP fired the Wuhan officials who presumably silenced those people, but it is still their responsibility for fostering a culture where towing the line and hiding problems until they cannot be hidden is acceptable for leadership positions.
- jennyyang 7y ago
  There's nothing to credit. Everyone was in on the silencing, the CCP only used those officials as scapegoats. Everyone on all levels of politics was keeping this a secret and hoping it would go away.
- cma 7y ago
  There are several articles about he CDC being silenced in various ways on early measures because they would hurt the economy.
- visarga 7y ago
  You raise a high bar for China but if the virus appeared in many other countries the global outcome would have been much worse.
marcosdumay 7y ago
It's a completely different situation. If China contained the disease when they had only 10 cases, there would be no disease anymore. If Italy contained the disease when they had only 10 cases, new cases would arrive, again and again.
jdnenej 7y ago
The difference is china could have contained it with minimal disruption. The only option italy had was to shut down all borders for the next 6 months.

mistermann 7y ago

If it did indeed come from live animals in a wet market, that seems like a potential valid reason for some criticism, although the they did a superb job adapting imho.

mjoin 7y ago

you're missing that China initially suppressed info abt this virus, which caused it to spread. had they reacted immediately, we might be in a much better situation rn

LeoNatan25 7y ago
Yes, and so could many countries, including Italy. This is the deal we've been had, and need to look to the future.
jbay808 7y ago
That's a very important point if we're discussing the upsides and downsides of censorship, or whether China is a bad country and should feel bad about itself. But if we're looking for an example of how to solve the pandemic, when people point to China as an example, they aren't saying "we should spend a few weeks pretending the virus doesn't exist, threaten doctors who talk about it, order our labs not to study it, and THEN take decisive action". They're saying we should do the stuff that China did, starting from the decisive action part.
- kisna72 7y ago
  exactly. I don't understand why people are so eager to assign blame when in reality every one would be better of taking the good parts of what China did.
  - paganel 7y ago
    We should assign blame to a drunk driver who hits someone, no matter if he became sober after the accident enough to drive his/her victims to the hospital. There's certainly lots of blame to assign to China and after all this comes back to a "normal" state again the international community should pressure China into eliminating the things that made all this possible: they should be draconic in not allowing things like the Wuhan wet-market be open ever again, all over China, for ever, they should be forthcoming in allowing international experts come and asses things as soon as a new disease manifests itself, they should allow their local medical experts have the upper hand over local Communist officials, at all times.
- tenpies 7y ago
  Which is why I honestly don't understand why the mainstream media isn't saying "do what Korea/Japan did". Other countries have handled this admirably (e.g. Taiwan and Singapore), but Korea and Japan are larger and had very sudden upward trajectories in infection rates. Both countries acted decisively and they got this under control incredibly quick and with minimal loss of life, all without resorting to extreme authoritarian measures. What China did is not something that other countries may want to replicate, but we should all be replicating the Korean and Japanese measures. Actually we should have been doing it weeks ago instead of pretending that if we didn't test then there would be no cases.
  - babayega2 7y ago
    I'm in Rome and I called my friend in Japan to enquire his whereabouts and he told me there they're not doing the same way Korea did it. Peoples continue to go to work. No mass screening. So cases aren't really reflecting the reality. It's like in USA. But one thing he conceide is Japanese are clean.
  - piggybox 7y ago
    From what I learn, Japan is acting like UK. Nothing like China and Korea at all. They don't want to cancel 2020 Olympics after all...
- xienze 7y ago
  > They’re saying we should do the stuff that China did, starting from the decisive action part You do realize that some of their “decisive actions” included enforcing quarantine via welded-shut doors, right?[0] I don’t think you’re ready to handle the kind of “decisive action” that China took. 0: https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1703503427818 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1703503427818
  - throw_564324 7y ago
    They only did that to people that refused to self quarantine.
    - xienze 7y ago
      Well, I guess that makes it alright then. I don’t think you understand the significance of welding the doors shut... it means if they catch you outside you can’t claim you did it on accident. So, wink wink, they’ll cure you of the virus permanently after that. Again, you’re not ready for Chinese-style “decisive actions.”
      - visarga 7y ago
        Don't worry about rights now, if you leave the door open and people walk about they will get even more decisive action from the virus, and gift the virus to others. With the population it has, China could have been in a much much worse shape today were it not for the quarantine.
- brabel 7y ago
  China was the first to have to handle the issue, so they had the difficult job of figuring out whether this virus was just like the flu (which some people are still claiming even today) or whether it was something to worry about much more than that. Imagine the cost to your credibility if you call it out for a huge danger, and it turns out it is just a new flu variant... The spread to other countries seems to only have started once the Chinese had conclusively shown this virus was very dangerous (and started the lock downs to prevent its spread). Hence, other countries had the benefit of this knowledge which China didn't, yet still failed to act. Some countries like the UK and Sweden even now pretending this is not a big deal and not taking anywhere enough measures to avoid widespread infection rates.
ksec 7y ago
>you're missing that China initially suppressed info abt this virus Not only that, refuse to acknowledge, or share any information to international communities. The amount of things they do just to saves faces.
- adinobro 7y ago
  You mean like making the DNA public, posting statistics daily, sending doctors and resources to other countries to help train ... That kind of not sharing information?
  - makomk 7y ago
    Like pretending it was an unknown disease that showed no sign of person-to-person spread when they'd already sequenced its entire RNA and found cases of it spreading within the community. Like having to be pressured into revealing what little details they did. Like, as I recall, only admitting that it was spreading person-to-person when another country spotted this. That kind of not sharing information.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - adinobro 7y ago
      It is a Novela virus. By definition you don't know anything about it until it is proven. If you don't know the source (which is still unknown) then you cannot verify that it has spread human to human. (They should have assumed that it did) Researches outside of China said there was no evidence of human to human transmission. The first 2 weeks of January were handled rather poorly. But lack of information since then isn't really one of them. What could China have done that would have made you personally happy? People automatically distrust anything they say. What other information could they have provided?
      - brabel 7y ago
        When people dislike a certain government or person, they jump to the worst conclusions about them rather quickly. This is extremely dangerous. Imagine a sensitive situation develops where there's weak evidence the victim of your dislike did something that might endanger you or your country... if you immediately jump to conclusions, which you are very likely to do as this thread shows, then the situation would easily develop into a confrontation... this is not hypothetical. With Americans and Chinese (and Russians, Iranians) coming face-to-face in more and more sensitive situations around the world, it's only a matter of time until the mutual distrust will cause one side to pull the trigger under unreasonable circumstances.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

teknologist 7y ago

A bit facetious I know but I don't feel that bat soup or pangolin pie would ever be an element of Italian cuisine

jacquesm 7y ago
A bat infecting a pig could easily happen in Italy. Or anywhere else for that matter.
- teknologist 7y ago
  What we know so far is that it's likely to have started at a wet market in Wuhan where people lived with bats and other wild animals. Chances of cross-infection are much higher in that scenario.
  - adinobro 7y ago
    The virus cannot have started back in November and started at the wet market at the same time. Either one is true or the other is true. People don't live with bats. The animals they farm live near bats.
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  No, not even close. Those wet markets are a fucking nightmare. There are truly optimized for pulling new diseases into the human population. Thousands of animals, hundreds of different species, many known to be reservoirs of potential human pathogens, crammed together in close proximity with each other and with humans who eat them. In his interview with Joe Rogan, Michael Osterholm called it "the perfect experiment that no university would let you do": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw Their discussion of wet markets starts at around 1:01:00.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    You are missing the point of my comment. A bat infecting a pig or some other two step is a pre-cursor to many Zoonotic events. Those wet markets are indeed a huge accelerator. But the pre-conditions exist in many places and all it takes is one butcher that isn't paying attention and you've got the ball rolling. Africa and Asia have a lot of this and so are a recurring theme in these very unfortunate stories. But it could happen here, and viruses really don't care about location. Wet markets and bushmeat is how we got SARS and HIV. We're not sure if COVID-19 was really transferred that way, maybe we'll never know. The Swine flu also jumped species in a regular farm. So there are lots of opportunities all over the world, some more dangerous than others.

lbeltrame 7y ago

I blame my own government for this, of course, the same that's getting all the praise and the "calls to responsiblity" from the press. When we had the first cases its only concern was whether a minority party would leave the coalition or not. It wasn't fit for the emergency, any emergency. Unfortunately, that's what we will be stuck with until it's over.

theferalrobot 7y ago

>Just like China, there was a time when Italy had 1 case, then 2 cases, then 4, etc. Just like the spread of fire, the window of opportunity to put it out is right at the beginning. Yes, Italy could put it out when it first came to Italy but they would have to do it many many more times to successfully contain it. China just had to do it once and they failed.

nexuist 7y ago

Doctors and civilians tried to sound the alarm that something was going on, and were silenced until it was too late. To their credit, the CCP fired the Wuhan officials who presumably silenced those people, but it is still their responsibility for fostering a culture where towing the line and hiding problems until they cannot be hidden is acceptable for leadership positions.

jennyyang 7y ago
There's nothing to credit. Everyone was in on the silencing, the CCP only used those officials as scapegoats. Everyone on all levels of politics was keeping this a secret and hoping it would go away.
cma 7y ago
There are several articles about he CDC being silenced in various ways on early measures because they would hurt the economy.
visarga 7y ago
You raise a high bar for China but if the virus appeared in many other countries the global outcome would have been much worse.

marcosdumay 7y ago

It's a completely different situation. If China contained the disease when they had only 10 cases, there would be no disease anymore. If Italy contained the disease when they had only 10 cases, new cases would arrive, again and again.

jdnenej 7y ago

The difference is china could have contained it with minimal disruption. The only option italy had was to shut down all borders for the next 6 months.