5 ms·

This is happening on the individual level too. The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn't even taken hold yet is a stark remi

by kjakm 7y ago

This is happening on the individual level too. The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn't even taken hold yet is a stark reminder of how utterly selfish some people can be. Sadly the people that will end up with difficulties are the less selfish people who now can't get essential items even when there is zero need for them to be scarce. Edit: As an example: I would like one bottle of hand sanitiser. That should last quite a while (nobody needs boxes and boxes of the stuff) and it would be very useful. I cannot buy it anywhere either IRL or online. As a last resort I just checked eBay. I found a 500ml approx bottle of Purrell for £17. Insane but given it would be very useful to have I almost bought it. Then I noticed the postage price was £100. The crazy part is that this person has sold quite a few of these according to eBay. You can claim this is the free market and supply/demand etc.etc. all you want but that doesn't make it ok. It's still incredibly selfish behaviour. Edit 2: Any explanation for the downvotes? I almost self-censored my comment on the free market as I thought it might lead to downvotes - decided to go ahead with it anyway. If you disagree with anything I've said starting a discussion is much more productive than hiding something you don't like.

IanDrake 7y ago
Re: down votes. HN isn't a forum for people to disagree and discuss. It's a hive mind where dissenters are punished via down votes for hurt feelings. Regarding people being selfish... There is nothing selfish about self preservation. The problem is we have a negative view on "price gouging" which is just economic triage. There wouldn't be a run on toilet paper if it cost 10x the normal price. It costs you nothing to stock up, so people do.
- kjakm 7y ago
  >> Regarding people being selfish... There is nothing selfish about self preservation. No, but purchasing much more of an item that you are ever likely going to need (at the cost of everyone who isn't doing that) is selfish. Stock up on enough essentials to get you through a self-quarantine period (2-3 weeks). Don't buy enough to last the next 12 months because a) it's completely unnecessary and b) you're preventing other people stocking up enough to cover a self-quarantine period.
  - IanDrake 7y ago
    And you are the arbitor of how much of something a person needs? Two people at a grocery store, both with an entire shopping cart full of dried pasta. One has twelve mouths to feed at home, the other lives alone. How do you police that or distinguish who is selfish?
scrollaway 7y ago
> The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn't even taken hold yet is a stark reminder of how utterly selfish some people can be. I disagree… "before the virus has even taken hold" is the perfect time to do long-term shopping. Avoiding crowded areas (read: THE MALL and the public transports to get to the mall) is key to reducing infection. Yes, hand sanitizer/face mask markets are ridiculous right now, but that's to be expected. It's not people being selfish, there's clearly genuine needs for it. When there's a fuckton of needs and not enough being produced… how is it people being selfish that you can't find hand sanitizer at a decent price? All those have been bought.
- kjakm 7y ago
  >> I disagree… "before the virus has even taken hold" is the perfect time to do long-term shopping. Avoiding crowded areas (read: THE MALL and the public transports to get to the mall) is key to reducing infection. While I agree that being prepared is important people are stocking up for much longer than necessary + not considering other people. This all depends on your ethical/world view I suppose but we don't have enough of certain items yet. The options are to think of only yourself and buy as much as you can as quickly as you can (while leaving other people with no options at all) or buy what you need now so that everyone has what they need and hopefully production can increase of the in demand items so we can all stock up before (worst case scenario) production has to cease entirely for a period of time. It's interesting to see how quickly our progressive societies can become every person for their self (to an extent).
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    To my recollection (corrections welcome), the covid19 virus has been reported to live on hard surfaces for 8 weeks, have an incubation period of up to 4 weeks, and live 5 weeks in vitro after confirmed infection ... if you're sanitising several times a day then that's a need for quite a long stretch of sanitiser.
    - kd0amg 7y ago
      Do you have sources for those figures? The ones I find are suggesting up to 2 weeks incubation (but more typically about 5 days) and surviving on some surfaces for 3 days (less for others). https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sars-cov-2-study-confirms-previous-incubation-period-estimates#Median-incubation-period-is-5.1-days https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sars-cov-2-study-c... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/811609026/the-new-coronavirus-can-live-on-surfaces-for-2-3-days-heres-how-to-clean-them https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/8116090...
luckylion 7y ago
I believe that the panic buying is primarily a leadership problem. Especially in Europe, the governments have, for the past decades but even more so in the past 5 years, retreated and said "we can't do anything anyhow, so you'll just have to deal with it". People have learned and do whatever they have to to protect themselves, because the society at large is falling apart and losing cohesion. If you have no leadership, you can't expect people to behave orderly. The US population is historically suspicious of the government and it's ability to get things done, so individuality is much more pronounced there. Secondly, I think the government, media and experts just haven't thought their communication strategy through. They've told people "you might need to get isolated in your home for a few weeks, and remember to wash your hands a lot". What, besides stocking up on food, soap/sanitizer and toilet paper, would you expect them to do in response?
- kjakm 7y ago
  >> What, besides stocking up on food, soap/sanitizer and toilet paper, would you expect them to do in response? I would have hoped people would keep in mind that staying home for a few weeks doesn't necessitate buying all that much more than a lot of families do in a "big shop". Take toilet paper as an example. The amount of it that's being bought by most people will last them 6-12 months. I know there's a lot of factors pushing people to make these decisions but it's certainly altered my generally optimistic/positive view of people as a whole.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    I've seen some pictures of people walking out with mountains of toilet paper as well, but I don't think that was the norm. It's not three guys making off with a truckload, it's a lot of people buying and extra package or two, enough for the next six weeks which will quickly deplete the aisles, since stores are operating without storage space (because storage is expensive, and stored goods are dead capital), so they have no reserves. Also, from my personal experience, it's a distribution problem. There is enough toilet paper, but it's sold out at some stores while others have more than enough. Can't level that out though, because margins are thin and the companies would lose money.
  - 7y ago
coding123 7y ago
The downvotes is for calling panic buying selfish. You can't simultaneously tell people to stay at home for long periods of time and tell them to not stock up for that.
- kjakm 7y ago
  >> You can't simultaneously tell people to stay at home for long periods of time and tell them to not stock up for that. Nobody is telling people to stay at home for long periods of time. If you think you have the disease you need to quarantine for a couple of weeks. That doesn't require a lot of stocking up. In Italy, where they are in 'lockdown', grocery stores remain open along with other essential services. So panic buying is unnecessary, causing shortages that are unnecessary and causing problems for people who aren't panic buying.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    Companies are _requiring_ people to work from home, childcare options are closing, schools are closing, businesses are cutting staff and hours, and there are public bans on large gatherings and urgings to stay home so that even if you are asymptomatic or healthy, you don’t risk accidentally contributing the spread to immunocompromised or elderly people. If you think you only need to budget supplies for two weeks, you’re just wrong. You need to budget for _months_, and likely need to budget many supplies you otherwise wouldn’t have needed, like increased food for daily breakfasts and lunches for a whole family who otherwise would have been at school / work drawing those supplies from elsewhere. While I agree the panic buying is harmful & we could ration and space it out with less shock to supply chains, I also think the behavior of everyday people facing the sudden prospect of a large family consuming toilet paper, 3 full meals, soap, medicine, etc., for an indefinite number of weeks ahead, it’s totally understandable and not even remotely “selfish.”
    - kjakm 7y ago
      >> If you think you only need to budget supplies for two weeks, you’re just wrong. You need to budget for _months_ Can you back this up at all? As I explained in my comment, Italy, one of the worst hit countries globally (and on 'lockdown') has grocery stores still functioning. The idea that people will be required to not leave their homes for months is fear mongering , impossible to enforce, and even in the worst case scenario people simply won't do it - they'll go stir crazy and give up a lot quicker than they think.
DonaldFisk 7y ago
Some places have introduced rationing to control this behaviour: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51790375 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51790375 , https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3047493/china-virus-macau-showing-way-swift-action-and-healthy-change https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3047493/china-v... And from earlier times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdo...
hordeallergy 7y ago
I agree. These people are not just selfish, they're idiots - I've seen purchases of years worth of toilet paper. My local shop had empty shelves for about a week but now has stacks on the floor as well as full shelves. The sanitiser stocks will soon arrive too - cash in on the nutters.
quattrofan 7y ago
Just soap and water far more effective due to fatty structure of viruses. Not an expert I'm sure someone else can provide more detail.
- kjakm 7y ago
  Agreed, the only reason I was after the hand sanitiser was that it would be useful the use when I get off public transport + am not going somewhere I can easily wash my hands with soap and water.
achillesheels 7y ago
Free markets do not promote ideal behavior. Morals do!

by kjakm 7y ago

IanDrake 7y ago

Re: down votes. HN isn't a forum for people to disagree and discuss. It's a hive mind where dissenters are punished via down votes for hurt feelings. Regarding people being selfish... There is nothing selfish about self preservation. The problem is we have a negative view on "price gouging" which is just economic triage. There wouldn't be a run on toilet paper if it cost 10x the normal price. It costs you nothing to stock up, so people do.

kjakm 7y ago
>> Regarding people being selfish... There is nothing selfish about self preservation. No, but purchasing much more of an item that you are ever likely going to need (at the cost of everyone who isn't doing that) is selfish. Stock up on enough essentials to get you through a self-quarantine period (2-3 weeks). Don't buy enough to last the next 12 months because a) it's completely unnecessary and b) you're preventing other people stocking up enough to cover a self-quarantine period.
- IanDrake 7y ago
  And you are the arbitor of how much of something a person needs? Two people at a grocery store, both with an entire shopping cart full of dried pasta. One has twelve mouths to feed at home, the other lives alone. How do you police that or distinguish who is selfish?

scrollaway 7y ago

> The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn't even taken hold yet is a stark reminder of how utterly selfish some people can be. I disagree… "before the virus has even taken hold" is the perfect time to do long-term shopping. Avoiding crowded areas (read: THE MALL and the public transports to get to the mall) is key to reducing infection. Yes, hand sanitizer/face mask markets are ridiculous right now, but that's to be expected. It's not people being selfish, there's clearly genuine needs for it. When there's a fuckton of needs and not enough being produced… how is it people being selfish that you can't find hand sanitizer at a decent price? All those have been bought.

kjakm 7y ago
>> I disagree… "before the virus has even taken hold" is the perfect time to do long-term shopping. Avoiding crowded areas (read: THE MALL and the public transports to get to the mall) is key to reducing infection. While I agree that being prepared is important people are stocking up for much longer than necessary + not considering other people. This all depends on your ethical/world view I suppose but we don't have enough of certain items yet. The options are to think of only yourself and buy as much as you can as quickly as you can (while leaving other people with no options at all) or buy what you need now so that everyone has what they need and hopefully production can increase of the in demand items so we can all stock up before (worst case scenario) production has to cease entirely for a period of time. It's interesting to see how quickly our progressive societies can become every person for their self (to an extent).
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  To my recollection (corrections welcome), the covid19 virus has been reported to live on hard surfaces for 8 weeks, have an incubation period of up to 4 weeks, and live 5 weeks in vitro after confirmed infection ... if you're sanitising several times a day then that's a need for quite a long stretch of sanitiser.
  - kd0amg 7y ago
    Do you have sources for those figures? The ones I find are suggesting up to 2 weeks incubation (but more typically about 5 days) and surviving on some surfaces for 3 days (less for others). https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sars-cov-2-study-confirms-previous-incubation-period-estimates#Median-incubation-period-is-5.1-days https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sars-cov-2-study-c... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/811609026/the-new-coronavirus-can-live-on-surfaces-for-2-3-days-heres-how-to-clean-them https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/8116090...

luckylion 7y ago

I believe that the panic buying is primarily a leadership problem. Especially in Europe, the governments have, for the past decades but even more so in the past 5 years, retreated and said "we can't do anything anyhow, so you'll just have to deal with it". People have learned and do whatever they have to to protect themselves, because the society at large is falling apart and losing cohesion. If you have no leadership, you can't expect people to behave orderly. The US population is historically suspicious of the government and it's ability to get things done, so individuality is much more pronounced there. Secondly, I think the government, media and experts just haven't thought their communication strategy through. They've told people "you might need to get isolated in your home for a few weeks, and remember to wash your hands a lot". What, besides stocking up on food, soap/sanitizer and toilet paper, would you expect them to do in response?

kjakm 7y ago
>> What, besides stocking up on food, soap/sanitizer and toilet paper, would you expect them to do in response? I would have hoped people would keep in mind that staying home for a few weeks doesn't necessitate buying all that much more than a lot of families do in a "big shop". Take toilet paper as an example. The amount of it that's being bought by most people will last them 6-12 months. I know there's a lot of factors pushing people to make these decisions but it's certainly altered my generally optimistic/positive view of people as a whole.
- luckylion 7y ago
  I've seen some pictures of people walking out with mountains of toilet paper as well, but I don't think that was the norm. It's not three guys making off with a truckload, it's a lot of people buying and extra package or two, enough for the next six weeks which will quickly deplete the aisles, since stores are operating without storage space (because storage is expensive, and stored goods are dead capital), so they have no reserves. Also, from my personal experience, it's a distribution problem. There is enough toilet paper, but it's sold out at some stores while others have more than enough. Can't level that out though, because margins are thin and the companies would lose money.
- 7y ago

coding123 7y ago

The downvotes is for calling panic buying selfish. You can't simultaneously tell people to stay at home for long periods of time and tell them to not stock up for that.

kjakm 7y ago
>> You can't simultaneously tell people to stay at home for long periods of time and tell them to not stock up for that. Nobody is telling people to stay at home for long periods of time. If you think you have the disease you need to quarantine for a couple of weeks. That doesn't require a lot of stocking up. In Italy, where they are in 'lockdown', grocery stores remain open along with other essential services. So panic buying is unnecessary, causing shortages that are unnecessary and causing problems for people who aren't panic buying.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  Companies are _requiring_ people to work from home, childcare options are closing, schools are closing, businesses are cutting staff and hours, and there are public bans on large gatherings and urgings to stay home so that even if you are asymptomatic or healthy, you don’t risk accidentally contributing the spread to immunocompromised or elderly people. If you think you only need to budget supplies for two weeks, you’re just wrong. You need to budget for _months_, and likely need to budget many supplies you otherwise wouldn’t have needed, like increased food for daily breakfasts and lunches for a whole family who otherwise would have been at school / work drawing those supplies from elsewhere. While I agree the panic buying is harmful & we could ration and space it out with less shock to supply chains, I also think the behavior of everyday people facing the sudden prospect of a large family consuming toilet paper, 3 full meals, soap, medicine, etc., for an indefinite number of weeks ahead, it’s totally understandable and not even remotely “selfish.”
  - kjakm 7y ago
    >> If you think you only need to budget supplies for two weeks, you’re just wrong. You need to budget for _months_ Can you back this up at all? As I explained in my comment, Italy, one of the worst hit countries globally (and on 'lockdown') has grocery stores still functioning. The idea that people will be required to not leave their homes for months is fear mongering , impossible to enforce, and even in the worst case scenario people simply won't do it - they'll go stir crazy and give up a lot quicker than they think.

DonaldFisk 7y ago

Some places have introduced rationing to control this behaviour: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51790375 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51790375 , https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3047493/china-virus-macau-showing-way-swift-action-and-healthy-change https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3047493/china-v... And from earlier times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdo...

hordeallergy 7y ago

I agree. These people are not just selfish, they're idiots - I've seen purchases of years worth of toilet paper. My local shop had empty shelves for about a week but now has stacks on the floor as well as full shelves. The sanitiser stocks will soon arrive too - cash in on the nutters.

quattrofan 7y ago

Just soap and water far more effective due to fatty structure of viruses. Not an expert I'm sure someone else can provide more detail.

kjakm 7y ago
Agreed, the only reason I was after the hand sanitiser was that it would be useful the use when I get off public transport + am not going somewhere I can easily wash my hands with soap and water.

achillesheels 7y ago

Free markets do not promote ideal behavior. Morals do!