13 ms·

Lack of leadership. That happens when the most powerful man in the world is an idiot that doesn't believe in multilateral cooperation.

leto_ii 7y ago
Trump is part of the problem, for sure, but it seems to me that a world that is strongly divided into nation-states is just not able to effectively tackle pan-national threats. Even at an individual level we're so used to thinking in terms of 'our country vs. the rest' that our ability to empathize with people from 'far-away' is impeded.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  I’ve literally heard this virus be called “foreign”, like it identifies with a nationality etc.
  - sorokod 7y ago
    Quote: "This is the most aggressive and comprehensive effort to confront a foreign virus in modern history"
- buboard 7y ago
  OTOH it s increased international travel that causes the acuteness of these pandemics
- natmaka 7y ago
  Any "pan-national" effort implies massive transportation of goods/specialists. All this will let the virus thrive. Moreover such pan-national tackling will let the apparently most adequate response be adopted, therefore if it fails too badly we may be all wiped out because it will fail everywhere. Such a major pandemic is only possible thanks to our current population densities, massive transportation of persons/goods. Our central administrations were, as usual, patently totally unable to cope and even in some cases their very actions amplify the threat (cops in Wuhan silencing the local doc who early understood the threat, grotesque CDC actions in the US...), and are always pushing towards more densely populated huge territories for them to 'administer'. ... and further transportation of persons/goods and centralization of control should be in order?
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" of either goods or specialists at a scale that would make a significant difference to viral spread. Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive. Perhaps we could just leave it to the markets. They've done such a good job of providing robust and affordable healthcare in the US, markets can surely handle an international viral outbreak simply by maximising efficiency and ROI.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      >In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" of either goods or specialists at a scale that would make a significant difference to viral spread. Because of economies of scale and specialization? It's often cheaper for one place to produce a lot of a narrow list of goods and trade that for the goods they're lacking rather than every place making everything they use. This means that a lot of goods need to be moved around and a lot of people too. >Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive. Like what? Shut down international travel? Test every person coming into a country for a new disease? Both of these are very expensive, especially the former.
    - natmaka 7y ago
      > In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" Mirioron answered. > Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive The very reason why the virus spreads like it does February is because it is difficult and expensive. > Perhaps we could just leave it to the markets. The current state of affairs in the US, as in most countries, is crony capitalism, which has nothing to do with 'leaving it to the markets'. Isn't 'maximising efficiency' the very raison d'être of the 'pan-national effort' you proposed? Isn't it also the reason why huge amounts of humans live in giant and dense cities, with strong central government powers? From an organizational standpoint those are the main causes of the present crisis: total failure at detecting it early (the Chinese doc was censored), then at devising and implementing adequate measures (the faulty CDC coronavirus test is a prominent case, there are many others), and now at managing a major crisis (in most European countries the reality is that nearly no new potential case can be tested). And just wait for such a Supa Dupa Central Mega Pan-National Gov decision, applied everywhere, which will prove to be an error... Centralization and transport are sure ways to enforce the pandemics. We may be reckoning that high population density and centralized power not only aren't usefully efficient because the efficiency gain they induce is mainly used to produce nearly-useless (at best) products, and that they are extremely dangerous. We may, instead, appeal to moar of all this.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  But it makes sense to think that way. The ones who know the local situation best are the locals, not bureaucrats thousands of miles away. And when it comes to empathy, then those bureaucrats tend to have little of it towards the people affected by essentially any problem that doesn't affect where they are.
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    I don't get why coordination is equated by many people with centralization. You can agree on a set of measures that should be taken by everybody under certain circumstances and then let individual countries apply those measures.
robk 7y ago
Please check your trump derangement syndrome. He's not the cause of all the world problems.
- atoav 7y ago
  Although this wasn't exclusively about the US: Most issues the US now has, indeed existed before Trump became president — so much is true. Yet Trump still is the worst president you could have at that point in time. Nearly a month into the whole thing he decides it would be a good thing to call the virus a hoax, disregard expert advice and ultimately acts (as he usually does) purely on symbolical plane by blaming it on foreigners and closing the border. Closing the dissease control unit Obama built in the white house is only the cherry on top. Nothing to adress the issue of not beeing able to test people, there is no real oversight what is going on in the US. And quite frankly: if your leader's decisions are worse than throwing a dice, why even bother having him? Because it is more entertaining? In times of a pandemic you want to have something in leadership who does the unpopular thing, that ultimately stops the spread and saves the lives. Not someone who only thinks about themselves and changes their stance on the topic with every turn of the wind. But feel free to argue otherwise, if you know how the poststructuralist ways of trumpian confusion somehow help in times of a pandemic.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    He didn't call the virus a hoax ( https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-re... ) and he's happy to have people on his task force who will publicly contradict him so he isn't flooding the response with compliant yes men ( https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/02/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-vaccine-push-back/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/02/politics/donald-trump-cor... ). The US is probably doing terribly because of the CDCs absolute fumble of the test kit debacle; but assessing Trump's response as good or bad will take a lot of time. His border closures, believe what you will, were totally in character and probably good ideas for this specific crisis.
    - throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
101404 7y ago
Because the US is the only country in the world and Trump the only political leader in the world?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
atoav 7y ago
Living in Germany I don't really feel there is a lack of leadership. So far the politicians listened to expert advice which is precisely what I expect from them. And to oir luck the testing infrastructure in Germany is much better than in nearly every other nation (which also means the numbers are closer to reality than e.g. in Italy or the US). On top of that we have paid leave, so people who are showing symptoms can stay at home without worrying about money. This is a very different story in the US of course — but is it really only a leadership problem? Isn't it more of a systemic issue in the sense that now the weaknesses of e.g. certain centralized testing structures, not having universal healthcare etc come to light. Trump might be the worst president the US could have at that point in time, because he acts actively destructive on top of a system that hasn't that much ressilience anyways.
- mbeex 7y ago
  > So far the politicians listened to expert advice which is precisely what I expect from them. This is simply not true. The response of the Merkel administration is one of the slowest and inconsequential in whole Europe. Very probably accompanied by deliberately playing down death cases and infection numbers in general if anectotical information and comparison with the numbers of surrounding countries has any value.
  - kriro 7y ago
    I think they have handled it pretty well. I'm pretty sure they spent some time talking to experts. I've worked in a research project on crisis management before and have a very high opinion of the Robert Koch Institute which was one of the partners (and am generally quite critical of government organizations). Given the political infrastructure (states can make the decisions in many areas), I think the reaction was pretty good so far. One of the major concerns is always avoiding panics. I'm pretty sure they are balancing all official statements against that. Tbh. the most important thing for me is that you listen to experts and don't overreact.
    - wirrbel 7y ago
      In retrospect I think three things could have been handled better. Screening for fever at airports and clearer rules for self quarantining of people after traveling. Third point is control of medical and hygienic supply chains. Otherwise okish response I would say. Also no indication for dow playing. Maybe a bit reluctant with shut downs of Carnevale, clubs and ski vacationing
ekianjo 7y ago
> Lack of leadership Really? The US was the first country to stop flights from China, as far as I recall. Were there other leaders anywhere who did the same? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-cor...
- tsbinz 7y ago
  Italy stopped flights from china before the US, it didn't work so well for them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/03/12/italy-banned-flights-from-china-before-americait-didnt-work/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/03/12/italy-ba...
  - petre 7y ago
    They've got it via Germany apparently. The decision to suspend all flights from China should have been taken earlier at EU level. Either that or we go back to border controls, which is what has actually happened at least in countries that still have operational checkpoints. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-scientists/coronavirus-may-have-reached-italy-from-germany-scientists-say-idUSKBN20Y35B https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-...
  - tomp 7y ago
    US has much better control of its borders than Italy (being part of Schengen zone).
- dannyr 7y ago
  No US airports until a few days ago screened arriving passengers. They were not asked if they came from regions with large outbreaks. After a month from 1st infection, less than 2000 tests was conducted in the US. Right now, it's 12,000+ tests which is the lowest tests per million in the world. Schools, theaters, theme parks are closed. Sports events are suspended. What other evidence do you need that there is lack of leadership?

leto_ii 7y ago

Trump is part of the problem, for sure, but it seems to me that a world that is strongly divided into nation-states is just not able to effectively tackle pan-national threats. Even at an individual level we're so used to thinking in terms of 'our country vs. the rest' that our ability to empathize with people from 'far-away' is impeded.

bamboozled 7y ago
I’ve literally heard this virus be called “foreign”, like it identifies with a nationality etc.
- sorokod 7y ago
  Quote: "This is the most aggressive and comprehensive effort to confront a foreign virus in modern history"
buboard 7y ago
OTOH it s increased international travel that causes the acuteness of these pandemics
natmaka 7y ago
Any "pan-national" effort implies massive transportation of goods/specialists. All this will let the virus thrive. Moreover such pan-national tackling will let the apparently most adequate response be adopted, therefore if it fails too badly we may be all wiped out because it will fail everywhere. Such a major pandemic is only possible thanks to our current population densities, massive transportation of persons/goods. Our central administrations were, as usual, patently totally unable to cope and even in some cases their very actions amplify the threat (cops in Wuhan silencing the local doc who early understood the threat, grotesque CDC actions in the US...), and are always pushing towards more densely populated huge territories for them to 'administer'. ... and further transportation of persons/goods and centralization of control should be in order?
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" of either goods or specialists at a scale that would make a significant difference to viral spread. Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive. Perhaps we could just leave it to the markets. They've done such a good job of providing robust and affordable healthcare in the US, markets can surely handle an international viral outbreak simply by maximising efficiency and ROI.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    >In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" of either goods or specialists at a scale that would make a significant difference to viral spread. Because of economies of scale and specialization? It's often cheaper for one place to produce a lot of a narrow list of goods and trade that for the goods they're lacking rather than every place making everything they use. This means that a lot of goods need to be moved around and a lot of people too. >Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive. Like what? Shut down international travel? Test every person coming into a country for a new disease? Both of these are very expensive, especially the former.
  - natmaka 7y ago
    > In developed countries, I see no reason why there would be any need for "massive transportation" Mirioron answered. > Even if it were necessary, mitigation measures are neither difficult nor expensive The very reason why the virus spreads like it does February is because it is difficult and expensive. > Perhaps we could just leave it to the markets. The current state of affairs in the US, as in most countries, is crony capitalism, which has nothing to do with 'leaving it to the markets'. Isn't 'maximising efficiency' the very raison d'être of the 'pan-national effort' you proposed? Isn't it also the reason why huge amounts of humans live in giant and dense cities, with strong central government powers? From an organizational standpoint those are the main causes of the present crisis: total failure at detecting it early (the Chinese doc was censored), then at devising and implementing adequate measures (the faulty CDC coronavirus test is a prominent case, there are many others), and now at managing a major crisis (in most European countries the reality is that nearly no new potential case can be tested). And just wait for such a Supa Dupa Central Mega Pan-National Gov decision, applied everywhere, which will prove to be an error... Centralization and transport are sure ways to enforce the pandemics. We may be reckoning that high population density and centralized power not only aren't usefully efficient because the efficiency gain they induce is mainly used to produce nearly-useless (at best) products, and that they are extremely dangerous. We may, instead, appeal to moar of all this.
Mirioron 7y ago
But it makes sense to think that way. The ones who know the local situation best are the locals, not bureaucrats thousands of miles away. And when it comes to empathy, then those bureaucrats tend to have little of it towards the people affected by essentially any problem that doesn't affect where they are.
- leto_ii 7y ago
  I don't get why coordination is equated by many people with centralization. You can agree on a set of measures that should be taken by everybody under certain circumstances and then let individual countries apply those measures.

robk 7y ago

Please check your trump derangement syndrome. He's not the cause of all the world problems.

atoav 7y ago
Although this wasn't exclusively about the US: Most issues the US now has, indeed existed before Trump became president — so much is true. Yet Trump still is the worst president you could have at that point in time. Nearly a month into the whole thing he decides it would be a good thing to call the virus a hoax, disregard expert advice and ultimately acts (as he usually does) purely on symbolical plane by blaming it on foreigners and closing the border. Closing the dissease control unit Obama built in the white house is only the cherry on top. Nothing to adress the issue of not beeing able to test people, there is no real oversight what is going on in the US. And quite frankly: if your leader's decisions are worse than throwing a dice, why even bother having him? Because it is more entertaining? In times of a pandemic you want to have something in leadership who does the unpopular thing, that ultimately stops the spread and saves the lives. Not someone who only thinks about themselves and changes their stance on the topic with every turn of the wind. But feel free to argue otherwise, if you know how the poststructuralist ways of trumpian confusion somehow help in times of a pandemic.
- roenxi 7y ago
  He didn't call the virus a hoax ( https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-re... ) and he's happy to have people on his task force who will publicly contradict him so he isn't flooding the response with compliant yes men ( https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/02/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-vaccine-push-back/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/02/politics/donald-trump-cor... ). The US is probably doing terribly because of the CDCs absolute fumble of the test kit debacle; but assessing Trump's response as good or bad will take a lot of time. His border closures, believe what you will, were totally in character and probably good ideas for this specific crisis.
  - throwaway_pdp09 7y ago

101404 7y ago

Because the US is the only country in the world and Trump the only political leader in the world?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

atoav 7y ago

Living in Germany I don't really feel there is a lack of leadership. So far the politicians listened to expert advice which is precisely what I expect from them. And to oir luck the testing infrastructure in Germany is much better than in nearly every other nation (which also means the numbers are closer to reality than e.g. in Italy or the US). On top of that we have paid leave, so people who are showing symptoms can stay at home without worrying about money. This is a very different story in the US of course — but is it really only a leadership problem? Isn't it more of a systemic issue in the sense that now the weaknesses of e.g. certain centralized testing structures, not having universal healthcare etc come to light. Trump might be the worst president the US could have at that point in time, because he acts actively destructive on top of a system that hasn't that much ressilience anyways.

mbeex 7y ago
> So far the politicians listened to expert advice which is precisely what I expect from them. This is simply not true. The response of the Merkel administration is one of the slowest and inconsequential in whole Europe. Very probably accompanied by deliberately playing down death cases and infection numbers in general if anectotical information and comparison with the numbers of surrounding countries has any value.
- kriro 7y ago
  I think they have handled it pretty well. I'm pretty sure they spent some time talking to experts. I've worked in a research project on crisis management before and have a very high opinion of the Robert Koch Institute which was one of the partners (and am generally quite critical of government organizations). Given the political infrastructure (states can make the decisions in many areas), I think the reaction was pretty good so far. One of the major concerns is always avoiding panics. I'm pretty sure they are balancing all official statements against that. Tbh. the most important thing for me is that you listen to experts and don't overreact.
  - wirrbel 7y ago
    In retrospect I think three things could have been handled better. Screening for fever at airports and clearer rules for self quarantining of people after traveling. Third point is control of medical and hygienic supply chains. Otherwise okish response I would say. Also no indication for dow playing. Maybe a bit reluctant with shut downs of Carnevale, clubs and ski vacationing

ekianjo 7y ago

> Lack of leadership Really? The US was the first country to stop flights from China, as far as I recall. Were there other leaders anywhere who did the same? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-cor...

tsbinz 7y ago
Italy stopped flights from china before the US, it didn't work so well for them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/03/12/italy-banned-flights-from-china-before-americait-didnt-work/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2020/03/12/italy-ba...
- petre 7y ago
  They've got it via Germany apparently. The decision to suspend all flights from China should have been taken earlier at EU level. Either that or we go back to border controls, which is what has actually happened at least in countries that still have operational checkpoints. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-scientists/coronavirus-may-have-reached-italy-from-germany-scientists-say-idUSKBN20Y35B https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-...
- tomp 7y ago
  US has much better control of its borders than Italy (being part of Schengen zone).
dannyr 7y ago
No US airports until a few days ago screened arriving passengers. They were not asked if they came from regions with large outbreaks. After a month from 1st infection, less than 2000 tests was conducted in the US. Right now, it's 12,000+ tests which is the lowest tests per million in the world. Schools, theaters, theme parks are closed. Sports events are suspended. What other evidence do you need that there is lack of leadership?