12 ms·

New paint atomizer with over 95% coating efficiency

132 points by clouddrover 7y ago

giarc 7y ago
.Toyota? they have their own TLD?
- abhorrence 7y ago
  It’s a so called “dot brand” tld. Google, Apple and many others have them as well.
  - sho 7y ago
    And for a mere USD$185k, you can have one too!
    - zests 7y ago
      That feels like a bargain. Before I knew how software worked I thought TLDs were sacred.
      - dehrmann 7y ago
        They used to be, then ICANN lowered their standards.
- ape4 7y ago
  So ugly, ICANN literally sold the internet.
- dehrmann 7y ago
  Sadly, this doesn't work: https://toyota./ https://toyota./
forkexec 7y ago
This seems like an "emperor's new clothes" press release. How is this "revolutionary" compared to regular electrostatic coating processes that are already as efficient? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating#Process_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating#Process_...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hinkley 7y ago
  I think there's some imprecision in language going on here. Yes, that page claims that the system efficiency of current state-of-the-art electrostatic coating booths is 95%, through a combination of electrostatic attraction and paint recovery equipment. I think Toyota is saying that 95% of the paint ends up on the piece on the first pass. But just to make things extra confusing, the source material for the Wikipedia page already has a section on rotary nozzles: > Rotary atomizers are one of the possible methods of atomization used with electrostatic coating processes. Instead of air or fluid pressure, rotary atomizers use centrifugal force to atomize coating material. As a general rule of thumb, the faster the rotational speed, the greater the centrifugal force and the finer the atomization. So I still have no idea what it is they're claiming.
  - swsh 7y ago
    Seems novel in that they are combining the best of current rotary atomizers and electrostatic guns, and removing the need for compressed air. If you look at current electrostatic guns, they mostly seem to use compressed air to atomize the paint. Rotary atomizers still use air to direct the paint to the surface. So they get better transfer efficiency through electrostatics, and the rotary atomizer part probably allows them to use paints with lower VOCs further reducing emissions. That said it does look like there already exists rotary atomizers that also use electrostatics. But also still use air. https://www.graco.com/us/en/in-plant-manufacturing/solutions/articles/how-a-rotary-bell-atomizer-works.html https://www.graco.com/us/en/in-plant-manufacturing/solutions...
gbronner 7y ago
Guess we won't get any more fordite
kazinator 7y ago
Note that electrostatic coating per se is ancient. That part is certainly not what is new here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating I suspect the "electrostatic atomization" is just a consequence of the rotating cone head flinging particles of paint off its edge, which then end up pulled into the electrostatic field that is already there for the sake of electrostatic coating; i.e. that the main invention is the rotating head.
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  Nope, the way it's described I'm certain this is electrohydrodynamic jetting. It's been well researched since first discovered in the 60s by G.I. Taylor (IIRC). And it's already used in inkjet systems. From the description here, sounds like they have 600 of these droplet spray generators mounted in a conical assembly, which they rotate to keep feeding in paint via centrifugal force. Here is a slow motion video of a system similar to one drop generator. Lots of parameters that Toyota could play with here, like geometry, field configuration, field strength, pressure etc. https://youtube.com/watch?v=egi0t94wdcc https://youtube.com/watch?v=egi0t94wdcc
  - baybal2 7y ago
    That's not a Taylor cone they have. They have something in between true electropaint, and rotary atomizer. What is the exact advantage over plain electropainting is unclear to me
lowdose 7y ago
Isn't this a bit ironic that Tesla decided they offer the cybertruck in sheetmetal. As in every color you like as long as it's sheetmetal. Toyota has its own peak innovator dilemma moment here and they even brag about it.
colordrops 7y ago
Reminds me of this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrYkwG6Tuo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrYkwG6Tuo
tragiclos 7y ago
This is a bit misleading. The efficiency measure refers to the percentage of paint that adheres to the car body. While a higher percentage of paint is “wasted” in the conventional painting process, almost all of it is reclaimed and used to paint other cars.
- kxyvr 7y ago
  Wait. How does this work? I have an small spray gun that I use for small metal and wood projects that I hook to an air compressor. It can be used for smaller detail work on cars. Is there a way to reclaim my paint or is this just for larger industrial processes?
- himinlomax 7y ago
  Electrostatic painting has existed for well over 50 years, I doubt there's much difference in efficiency with this system: the parts and paint are at tens of kV of potential differential, the paint has pretty much nowhere else to go. The main issue with such painting technology is the homogeneity and size of the droplets or powder clusters.
guidedlight 7y ago
They are comparing this new method to an Air Paint Atomizer. The vast majority of spray painting today is with airless paint atomizers, where the paint itself is compressed and sprayed without the use of air.
sunstone 7y ago
Why do I care about this?
godzillabrennus 7y ago
Am I the only one who is just learning there is a dot Toyota TLD now?
- nathanwh 7y ago
  http://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt http://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt List of TLDs, large enough companies usually have one, I’m not aware of what the utility of having a TLD is to a non tech company
  - wincy 7y ago
    Maybe their cars updates are only allowed to go to .toyota domain names? That’d make it easier to not have your domain name expire on some URL your car is hitting and it gets taken over by squatters or something. At least that’s what I’d do.
    - RL_Quine 7y ago
      Ah yes, why worry about forgetting to renew a $10 domain name when you can forget to renew a $100,000+ top level domain!
- wyxuan 7y ago
  Probably works well to prevent phishing or spoofing attempts
morninglight 7y ago
I worked on a research project at Toyota in Toyota City. We were trying to improve the dynamic control of the rotational speed of their paint bells. There is a great deal of information about electrostatic paint bell systems on the internet. The overall process was very similar to the one described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_bell_painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_bell_painting During the last 20 years, the quality of Toyota's paint application has never been equalled, and they know it. I am not familiar with this new process, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were primarily based on small improvements to existing methods. After many years of working with Toyota, I can tell you that the superiority of their products is seldom due to new technology, but rather their dedication to perfection.
antonzabirko 7y ago
Adblock can't catch these
- abhs 7y ago
  We need a corporate shill blocker
londons_explore 7y ago
Claiming that Toyota Group produces 7 percent less CO2 emissions just because of a change to the way paint is applied...? I don't believe it...
tus88 7y ago
Elon Musk shrugs.
amelius 7y ago
Can they use this to paint custom graphics on a car's surface? How many DPI can they get?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
derefr 7y ago
Not precisely relevant to the “innovation” in the article, but is there any smaller-scale application of electrostatic paint deposition in the form of some kind of hand tool? I.e. is there an electrostatic version of an airbrush, that doesn’t require a compressor, but rather (presumably) a voltage source alligator-clipped to the paint tank and the work surface? I can’t picture quite how such a thing would work, because I feel like the paint wouldn’t really have enough energy to jump out of the nozzle on its own.
- bradyd 7y ago
  What you are talking about would be a powder coating gun. They use compressed air to spray the powder. https://www.powdercoatguide.com/2012/11/getting-into-powder-coating-equipment.html https://www.powdercoatguide.com/2012/11/getting-into-powder-...
throwawaysea 7y ago
I recall touring plants where paint is sprayed onto charged bodies to help them stick rather than scatter onto other surfaces. What makes this any better?

132 points by clouddrover 7y ago

giarc 7y ago

.Toyota? they have their own TLD?

abhorrence 7y ago
It’s a so called “dot brand” tld. Google, Apple and many others have them as well.
- sho 7y ago
  And for a mere USD$185k, you can have one too!
  - zests 7y ago
    That feels like a bargain. Before I knew how software worked I thought TLDs were sacred.
    - dehrmann 7y ago
      They used to be, then ICANN lowered their standards.
ape4 7y ago
So ugly, ICANN literally sold the internet.
dehrmann 7y ago
Sadly, this doesn't work: https://toyota./ https://toyota./

forkexec 7y ago

This seems like an "emperor's new clothes" press release. How is this "revolutionary" compared to regular electrostatic coating processes that are already as efficient? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating#Process_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating#Process_...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hinkley 7y ago
I think there's some imprecision in language going on here. Yes, that page claims that the system efficiency of current state-of-the-art electrostatic coating booths is 95%, through a combination of electrostatic attraction and paint recovery equipment. I think Toyota is saying that 95% of the paint ends up on the piece on the first pass. But just to make things extra confusing, the source material for the Wikipedia page already has a section on rotary nozzles: > Rotary atomizers are one of the possible methods of atomization used with electrostatic coating processes. Instead of air or fluid pressure, rotary atomizers use centrifugal force to atomize coating material. As a general rule of thumb, the faster the rotational speed, the greater the centrifugal force and the finer the atomization. So I still have no idea what it is they're claiming.
- swsh 7y ago
  Seems novel in that they are combining the best of current rotary atomizers and electrostatic guns, and removing the need for compressed air. If you look at current electrostatic guns, they mostly seem to use compressed air to atomize the paint. Rotary atomizers still use air to direct the paint to the surface. So they get better transfer efficiency through electrostatics, and the rotary atomizer part probably allows them to use paints with lower VOCs further reducing emissions. That said it does look like there already exists rotary atomizers that also use electrostatics. But also still use air. https://www.graco.com/us/en/in-plant-manufacturing/solutions/articles/how-a-rotary-bell-atomizer-works.html https://www.graco.com/us/en/in-plant-manufacturing/solutions...

gbronner 7y ago

Guess we won't get any more fordite

kazinator 7y ago

Note that electrostatic coating per se is ancient. That part is certainly not what is new here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_coating I suspect the "electrostatic atomization" is just a consequence of the rotating cone head flinging particles of paint off its edge, which then end up pulled into the electrostatic field that is already there for the sake of electrostatic coating; i.e. that the main invention is the rotating head.

semi-extrinsic 7y ago
Nope, the way it's described I'm certain this is electrohydrodynamic jetting. It's been well researched since first discovered in the 60s by G.I. Taylor (IIRC). And it's already used in inkjet systems. From the description here, sounds like they have 600 of these droplet spray generators mounted in a conical assembly, which they rotate to keep feeding in paint via centrifugal force. Here is a slow motion video of a system similar to one drop generator. Lots of parameters that Toyota could play with here, like geometry, field configuration, field strength, pressure etc. https://youtube.com/watch?v=egi0t94wdcc https://youtube.com/watch?v=egi0t94wdcc
- baybal2 7y ago
  That's not a Taylor cone they have. They have something in between true electropaint, and rotary atomizer. What is the exact advantage over plain electropainting is unclear to me

lowdose 7y ago

Isn't this a bit ironic that Tesla decided they offer the cybertruck in sheetmetal. As in every color you like as long as it's sheetmetal. Toyota has its own peak innovator dilemma moment here and they even brag about it.

colordrops 7y ago

Reminds me of this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrYkwG6Tuo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrYkwG6Tuo

tragiclos 7y ago

This is a bit misleading. The efficiency measure refers to the percentage of paint that adheres to the car body. While a higher percentage of paint is “wasted” in the conventional painting process, almost all of it is reclaimed and used to paint other cars.

kxyvr 7y ago
Wait. How does this work? I have an small spray gun that I use for small metal and wood projects that I hook to an air compressor. It can be used for smaller detail work on cars. Is there a way to reclaim my paint or is this just for larger industrial processes?
himinlomax 7y ago
Electrostatic painting has existed for well over 50 years, I doubt there's much difference in efficiency with this system: the parts and paint are at tens of kV of potential differential, the paint has pretty much nowhere else to go. The main issue with such painting technology is the homogeneity and size of the droplets or powder clusters.

guidedlight 7y ago

They are comparing this new method to an Air Paint Atomizer. The vast majority of spray painting today is with airless paint atomizers, where the paint itself is compressed and sprayed without the use of air.

sunstone 7y ago

Why do I care about this?

godzillabrennus 7y ago

Am I the only one who is just learning there is a dot Toyota TLD now?

nathanwh 7y ago
http://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt http://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt List of TLDs, large enough companies usually have one, I’m not aware of what the utility of having a TLD is to a non tech company
- wincy 7y ago
  Maybe their cars updates are only allowed to go to .toyota domain names? That’d make it easier to not have your domain name expire on some URL your car is hitting and it gets taken over by squatters or something. At least that’s what I’d do.
  - RL_Quine 7y ago
    Ah yes, why worry about forgetting to renew a $10 domain name when you can forget to renew a $100,000+ top level domain!
wyxuan 7y ago
Probably works well to prevent phishing or spoofing attempts

morninglight 7y ago

I worked on a research project at Toyota in Toyota City. We were trying to improve the dynamic control of the rotational speed of their paint bells. There is a great deal of information about electrostatic paint bell systems on the internet. The overall process was very similar to the one described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_bell_painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_bell_painting During the last 20 years, the quality of Toyota's paint application has never been equalled, and they know it. I am not familiar with this new process, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were primarily based on small improvements to existing methods. After many years of working with Toyota, I can tell you that the superiority of their products is seldom due to new technology, but rather their dedication to perfection.

antonzabirko 7y ago

Adblock can't catch these

abhs 7y ago
We need a corporate shill blocker

londons_explore 7y ago

Claiming that Toyota Group produces 7 percent less CO2 emissions just because of a change to the way paint is applied...? I don't believe it...

tus88 7y ago

Elon Musk shrugs.

amelius 7y ago

Can they use this to paint custom graphics on a car's surface? How many DPI can they get?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

derefr 7y ago

Not precisely relevant to the “innovation” in the article, but is there any smaller-scale application of electrostatic paint deposition in the form of some kind of hand tool? I.e. is there an electrostatic version of an airbrush, that doesn’t require a compressor, but rather (presumably) a voltage source alligator-clipped to the paint tank and the work surface? I can’t picture quite how such a thing would work, because I feel like the paint wouldn’t really have enough energy to jump out of the nozzle on its own.

bradyd 7y ago
What you are talking about would be a powder coating gun. They use compressed air to spray the powder. https://www.powdercoatguide.com/2012/11/getting-into-powder-coating-equipment.html https://www.powdercoatguide.com/2012/11/getting-into-powder-...

throwawaysea 7y ago

I recall touring plants where paint is sprayed onto charged bodies to help them stick rather than scatter onto other surfaces. What makes this any better?