6 ms·

Game studios especially need this. I'm a conservative in most other labor-related things (liberal on social issues), but holy shit the devs are abused by the ga

by m0zg 7y ago

Game studios especially need this. I'm a conservative in most other labor-related things (liberal on social issues), but holy shit the devs are abused by the game studios.

bennysonething 7y ago
Completely disagree. They aren't miners working in horrible conditions where that's the only job in town. Game developers are highly talented, skilled individuals. There is a high demand for such people outside the game industry they choose to stay there. I'm a developer in the finance industry. Worked in a few other sectors too. If games industry is harsh, jump ship. Abused? Get real, the working populations outside the western world are abused and with little choice (and a lot of people in the west lower down the food chain). I think it's insulting to to people with limited options no money to lump games devs in with them. Personally speaking, last thing I'd want in software industry is a Union. Graded pay scales that take no account of productivity variability is a sure fire way to kill an industry. We re a privileged bunch as developers.
- elihu 7y ago
  "Stay in a bad employment situation" and "leave a bad employment situation" aren't the only options; workers can also collectively work to make the bad situation better. There can be a lot of good reason to do that, and I think we should be glad that people are working to make things better where they are.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  Unions don't require graded pay scales. You don't have to be a miner to be systemically taken advantage of. If one employer offers an unfair employment contract, you can try another company. If every employer offers an unfair employment contract, you don't have the option of another company. I can name a few clauses that favor only the company that are present at every software employment contract in almost every state. There are more potential employees than potential employers, and most companies will survive understaffed longer than US laborers will survive unemployed. Inherently, the negotiations favor the employer. The more output the employer has stolen from its workers, the more of an advantage it will have. Unionizing and collective bargaining balances those scales.
  - fiter 7y ago
    Could these unemployed employees start their own cooperatives that do not take advantage of employees? I want to focus on making this possible. I am, personally, concerned that trying to create some two sided balance of power will not end up representing me as both sides will have their own interest.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      They need to get capital from somewhere, which has a habit of dicating terms.
  - elihu 7y ago
    > There are more potential employees than potential employers This is exacerbated by employers either overtly colluding with each other (as in the lawsuit several years ago over tech companies having an agreement not to hire each other's employees) or simply setting compensation to "industry averages" and following "industry best practices". To the extent that every big tech company behaves the same as every other big tech company, there's effectively only one big tech employer.
- meowface 7y ago
  >If games industry is harsh, jump ship. If the industry you work in sucks, jump ship? That's not exactly great advice when you've spent decades honing your craft in a certain industry. Even if someone did genuinely want to switch, game development skills aren't necessarily easily transferable to other kinds of development, even if it helps. That advice makes sense if a company you works for sucks, but if an entire industry is broken, you can't just tell people to suck it up and find a new industry.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > Even if someone did genuinely want to switch, game development skills aren't necessarily easily transferable to other kinds of development, even if it helps. This needs a lot of qualification. Even someone doing scripting probably has picked up coding fluency at least. Programming game engines and networking code is definitely tackling complex problems and could at least get a mid-level dev role. I think 3d asset creation is probably the most game-specific role, and even that is something that is used by special effects companies and design firms. > That advice makes sense if a company you works for sucks, but if an entire industry is broken, you can't just tell people to suck it up and find a new industry. You absolutely can tell people to suck it up and find a new industry. This mentality is why the game industry can get away with bad work life balance and low job security. Because people keep working there. If the game industry was starved for talent, then they'd have to offer better work experiences.
    - Impossible 7y ago
      I think 3d asset creation is probably the most game-specific role, and even that is something that is used by special effects companies and design firms. Game industry working conditions are generally significantly better than VFX and can be better than design firms looking for similar skillsets.
  - Frost1x 7y ago
    While I mostly agree with your comment, I do want to mention for anyone who finds it useful: there's quite a bit of modeling and simulation work in the scientific computing and research industry, including the US government and contractors that lends itself well to certain game development skillsets. There's typically more focus on analytics and the science skills over artistic skills (sorry graphic artists, environmental artists, etc.) obviously, but backend developers in gaming often have a lot of useful overlapping skills and knowledge in terms of systems design, design patterns, sets of problems, etc. Pay is good, work/life balance is great, intellectually stimulating, it's challenging yet enjoyable (though arguably not as fun as game development). In many cases, industry borrows or leverages work from the gaming industry quite a bit. A step further and the defense industry/military industrial complex would also love to have more game developers--though tech has a pretty anti-government pro-business vibe overall (not surprisingly).
pkaler 7y ago
Former game developer here. Game studios don't need unions, they need better management. Basically, an 18-year-old QA tester gets promoted to lead QA then associate producer then assistant producer and then producer. The producer manages by industry lore. And industry lore is terrible. Unionization is not going to fix the management training problem.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  But if management has no incentive to fix itself, what pressure is there to force them to? Negative press and bad reputation of industry conditions doesn't seem to be helping. The investors don't care. Customers don't care. So the workers themselves need to push back.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  > Game studios don't need unions, they need better management. If workers unionize [1], they can force bad management out, or curtail its badness, or in extreme cases - replace management with collective ownership. [1] - in an independent, non-corrupt union.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. The reality is that game development studios can get away with poor work life balance because there's people who are passionate about making games and are willing to accept poor working conditions to get a chance at their dream job. This Stage Actor's Guild exists, but aspiring actors still have to work second jobs to put a roof over their heads. When a job is a lot of people's dream job, conditions are going to be poor because the supply of potential labor is very large as compared to the demand. Also, I have no idea where you get the idea that unions can somehow force collective ownership. The company belongs to the shareholders, unions don't magically get to take other people's property.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      Employees usually receive shares as comp, don't they? I will say that the horror stories and bad press coming out of the video gaming industry will possibly have a chilling effect for new grads who would otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of non-union workers to hire. Or the non-union workers themselves will demand better treatment.
anthm1988 7y ago
> liberal on social issues You aren't liberal on social issues if you're a fiscal conservative. That's not how the world works.

by m0zg 7y ago

Game studios especially need this. I'm a conservative in most other labor-related things (liberal on social issues), but holy shit the devs are abused by the game studios.

bennysonething 7y ago

Completely disagree. They aren't miners working in horrible conditions where that's the only job in town. Game developers are highly talented, skilled individuals. There is a high demand for such people outside the game industry they choose to stay there. I'm a developer in the finance industry. Worked in a few other sectors too. If games industry is harsh, jump ship. Abused? Get real, the working populations outside the western world are abused and with little choice (and a lot of people in the west lower down the food chain). I think it's insulting to to people with limited options no money to lump games devs in with them. Personally speaking, last thing I'd want in software industry is a Union. Graded pay scales that take no account of productivity variability is a sure fire way to kill an industry. We re a privileged bunch as developers.

elihu 7y ago
"Stay in a bad employment situation" and "leave a bad employment situation" aren't the only options; workers can also collectively work to make the bad situation better. There can be a lot of good reason to do that, and I think we should be glad that people are working to make things better where they are.
ilikehurdles 7y ago
Unions don't require graded pay scales. You don't have to be a miner to be systemically taken advantage of. If one employer offers an unfair employment contract, you can try another company. If every employer offers an unfair employment contract, you don't have the option of another company. I can name a few clauses that favor only the company that are present at every software employment contract in almost every state. There are more potential employees than potential employers, and most companies will survive understaffed longer than US laborers will survive unemployed. Inherently, the negotiations favor the employer. The more output the employer has stolen from its workers, the more of an advantage it will have. Unionizing and collective bargaining balances those scales.
- fiter 7y ago
  Could these unemployed employees start their own cooperatives that do not take advantage of employees? I want to focus on making this possible. I am, personally, concerned that trying to create some two sided balance of power will not end up representing me as both sides will have their own interest.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    They need to get capital from somewhere, which has a habit of dicating terms.
- elihu 7y ago
  > There are more potential employees than potential employers This is exacerbated by employers either overtly colluding with each other (as in the lawsuit several years ago over tech companies having an agreement not to hire each other's employees) or simply setting compensation to "industry averages" and following "industry best practices". To the extent that every big tech company behaves the same as every other big tech company, there's effectively only one big tech employer.
meowface 7y ago
>If games industry is harsh, jump ship. If the industry you work in sucks, jump ship? That's not exactly great advice when you've spent decades honing your craft in a certain industry. Even if someone did genuinely want to switch, game development skills aren't necessarily easily transferable to other kinds of development, even if it helps. That advice makes sense if a company you works for sucks, but if an entire industry is broken, you can't just tell people to suck it up and find a new industry.
- manfredo 7y ago
  > Even if someone did genuinely want to switch, game development skills aren't necessarily easily transferable to other kinds of development, even if it helps. This needs a lot of qualification. Even someone doing scripting probably has picked up coding fluency at least. Programming game engines and networking code is definitely tackling complex problems and could at least get a mid-level dev role. I think 3d asset creation is probably the most game-specific role, and even that is something that is used by special effects companies and design firms. > That advice makes sense if a company you works for sucks, but if an entire industry is broken, you can't just tell people to suck it up and find a new industry. You absolutely can tell people to suck it up and find a new industry. This mentality is why the game industry can get away with bad work life balance and low job security. Because people keep working there. If the game industry was starved for talent, then they'd have to offer better work experiences.
  - Impossible 7y ago
    I think 3d asset creation is probably the most game-specific role, and even that is something that is used by special effects companies and design firms. Game industry working conditions are generally significantly better than VFX and can be better than design firms looking for similar skillsets.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  While I mostly agree with your comment, I do want to mention for anyone who finds it useful: there's quite a bit of modeling and simulation work in the scientific computing and research industry, including the US government and contractors that lends itself well to certain game development skillsets. There's typically more focus on analytics and the science skills over artistic skills (sorry graphic artists, environmental artists, etc.) obviously, but backend developers in gaming often have a lot of useful overlapping skills and knowledge in terms of systems design, design patterns, sets of problems, etc. Pay is good, work/life balance is great, intellectually stimulating, it's challenging yet enjoyable (though arguably not as fun as game development). In many cases, industry borrows or leverages work from the gaming industry quite a bit. A step further and the defense industry/military industrial complex would also love to have more game developers--though tech has a pretty anti-government pro-business vibe overall (not surprisingly).

pkaler 7y ago

Former game developer here. Game studios don't need unions, they need better management. Basically, an 18-year-old QA tester gets promoted to lead QA then associate producer then assistant producer and then producer. The producer manages by industry lore. And industry lore is terrible. Unionization is not going to fix the management training problem.

Apocryphon 7y ago
But if management has no incentive to fix itself, what pressure is there to force them to? Negative press and bad reputation of industry conditions doesn't seem to be helping. The investors don't care. Customers don't care. So the workers themselves need to push back.
einpoklum 7y ago
> Game studios don't need unions, they need better management. If workers unionize [1], they can force bad management out, or curtail its badness, or in extreme cases - replace management with collective ownership. [1] - in an independent, non-corrupt union.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. The reality is that game development studios can get away with poor work life balance because there's people who are passionate about making games and are willing to accept poor working conditions to get a chance at their dream job. This Stage Actor's Guild exists, but aspiring actors still have to work second jobs to put a roof over their heads. When a job is a lot of people's dream job, conditions are going to be poor because the supply of potential labor is very large as compared to the demand. Also, I have no idea where you get the idea that unions can somehow force collective ownership. The company belongs to the shareholders, unions don't magically get to take other people's property.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    Employees usually receive shares as comp, don't they? I will say that the horror stories and bad press coming out of the video gaming industry will possibly have a chilling effect for new grads who would otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of non-union workers to hire. Or the non-union workers themselves will demand better treatment.

anthm1988 7y ago

> liberal on social issues You aren't liberal on social issues if you're a fiscal conservative. That's not how the world works.