4 ms·

That will end in another monstrosity like WEEE making entry for hardware startups harder and harder: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electr

by lnsru 7y ago

That will end in another monstrosity like WEEE making entry for hardware startups harder and harder: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electro... Only big players with dedicated departments will comply easily. And about right to repair I have bad experience: broken cable is enough for lots of buyers to throw away electronic appliances. Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. Another thing is planned obsolescence when electronics die right after warranty period ends. Buddy had this with high end washing machine and I had this with display recently.

simion314 7y ago
This maybe happens if the product is cheap or if you have the enough money so wasting your time sending a product to a repair person costs you more. But don't forget that a major issue is companioes like Apple using copyright laws to forbid sharing of repair manuals, sharing of diagnostic software and forbiding selling of components to other people then Apple. Allowing people sharing a repair manual, a diagnose software won't harm any consumer.
liopleurodon 7y ago
I'd like to be able to swap the battery on my smartphone, like I used to be able to do. Same with my laptop
- coldpie 7y ago
  Yes but if you could do that, then you might also be able to fit a headphone jack in there. What a horrible future that would be.
- mc32 7y ago
  I think the whole thing should be thought of as built-to-be-repaired, rather than right-to-repair. Build with simple easy to replace common components. No black boxes. Obviously some products fit this more nicely than others. Simple devices like washing machines vs smartphones. Washing machines and other products that have been smartened should have mechanical mode fall-backs so that cheap electronic controllers susceptible to failure which may cease production, don’t doom the usefulness of a product.
yohannparis 7y ago
If you read more into the law, they want to have parts and documentation available to professionals mostly. The consumer might still get them, but the goal is not to be user-friendly. Like with your car, sure I can change my fuel pump, but most people will go their mechanic, and their mechanic can buy parts from the manufacturer. The law is promoting this kind of service. Right now if your TV has a broken part, it might be impossible to fix, even with a pro. Maybe a really good one might change some electronics, but not an OEM part swap.
- hermitdev 7y ago
  I just bought a new TV after my previous one crapped out. It was exhibiting the exact same symptoms when it was repaired under warranty a few years back. Decided it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a new TV, get a new warranty than to spend $800 on parts and labor to repair. That was my 2nd Samsung in a row to die a few years after a warranty repair. Avoiding Samsung TVs for a long while.
gsich 7y ago
Why? Most of the time you design your stuff deliberately to not be easy to repair, see Apple, see every mobile phone/notebook with a non-replaceable battery. Just don't do that and you're fine. Publish your schematics too, they are not a company secret, they are for your customers.
qayxc 7y ago
> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. What kind of argument is that? Right to repair isn't about you and me fiddling about with with broken appliances. It's about qualified and licensed people in repair shops being able to acquire parts and schematics to do their job. No one is arguing that your average Jane or Joe should be ones doing the repair! That's just another strawman that is easily dismantled...
- linuxftw 7y ago
  > qualified and licensed people in repair shops In the US, anyone can repair a vehicle and not void the warranty. No license needed.
  - qayxc 7y ago
    Same in Europe and still completely besides the point. Also, this argument keeps ignoring that the ominous "anybody" is required to have access to a repair shop, tools, and the skills required. Once you take into account all these factors it quickly becomes apparent that not "anybody" will repair cars, appliances, and electronics by themselves; regardless of legislation. The people who do care (farmers in the US, electronics repair shops, that dude on YT who repairs Teslas, ...) incidentally are the ones with the skills, the tools, and the incentive. The licensed part comes into play as soon damage regulation due to improper use/repair occurs. This isn't a concern for private individuals (in the car example: there's a mandatory in-depth technical inspection every other year in Europe, so an improper repair results in a failed inspection anyway), though your insurance may become null and void depending on the circumstances.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      Anybody may repair cars but not everybody can repair cars.
  - snuxoll 7y ago
    Not just vehicles, anything - the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does not discriminate.
jka 7y ago
Which parts of the potential legislation do you have concerns about with regard to difficulty for new entrants? Product obsolescence does seem to be a concern that the EU wishes to address: "The Commission will propose legislation on Sustainable Product Policy, to ensure that products placed on the EU market are designed to last longer, are easier to reuse, repair and recycle, and incorporate as much as possible recycled material instead of primary raw material. Single-use will be restricted, premature obsolescence tackled and the destruction of unsold durable goods banned."[0] I also think that legislating to ensure that issues such as energy efficiency, durability, repairability and recycling must be considered during the design phase are great progress too, as outlined in the Circular Economy Action Plan[1]. It's important to raise those concerns and get involved to help shape the process and outcomes. [0] - https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_420 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_... [1] - https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/new_circular_economy_action_plan.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/new_ci...
as1mov 7y ago
> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. Yep, let's make everything a black box that can only be repaired under the watchful eye of a corporation, and they retain the right to refuse the repair and charge whatever the fuck they want. That's surely gonna work out well. That's surely gonna work out well.
clarry 7y ago
Which washing machine was that? Which display was that?
- lnsru 7y ago
  Siemens machine and Philips display. Siemens successfully disappeared, Philips acted ethically and sent refurbished one, because in the last days of warranty I managed to open support case.

by lnsru 7y ago

simion314 7y ago

This maybe happens if the product is cheap or if you have the enough money so wasting your time sending a product to a repair person costs you more. But don't forget that a major issue is companioes like Apple using copyright laws to forbid sharing of repair manuals, sharing of diagnostic software and forbiding selling of components to other people then Apple. Allowing people sharing a repair manual, a diagnose software won't harm any consumer.

liopleurodon 7y ago

I'd like to be able to swap the battery on my smartphone, like I used to be able to do. Same with my laptop

coldpie 7y ago
Yes but if you could do that, then you might also be able to fit a headphone jack in there. What a horrible future that would be.
mc32 7y ago
I think the whole thing should be thought of as built-to-be-repaired, rather than right-to-repair. Build with simple easy to replace common components. No black boxes. Obviously some products fit this more nicely than others. Simple devices like washing machines vs smartphones. Washing machines and other products that have been smartened should have mechanical mode fall-backs so that cheap electronic controllers susceptible to failure which may cease production, don’t doom the usefulness of a product.

yohannparis 7y ago

If you read more into the law, they want to have parts and documentation available to professionals mostly. The consumer might still get them, but the goal is not to be user-friendly. Like with your car, sure I can change my fuel pump, but most people will go their mechanic, and their mechanic can buy parts from the manufacturer. The law is promoting this kind of service. Right now if your TV has a broken part, it might be impossible to fix, even with a pro. Maybe a really good one might change some electronics, but not an OEM part swap.

hermitdev 7y ago
I just bought a new TV after my previous one crapped out. It was exhibiting the exact same symptoms when it was repaired under warranty a few years back. Decided it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a new TV, get a new warranty than to spend $800 on parts and labor to repair. That was my 2nd Samsung in a row to die a few years after a warranty repair. Avoiding Samsung TVs for a long while.

gsich 7y ago

Why? Most of the time you design your stuff deliberately to not be easy to repair, see Apple, see every mobile phone/notebook with a non-replaceable battery. Just don't do that and you're fine. Publish your schematics too, they are not a company secret, they are for your customers.

qayxc 7y ago

> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. What kind of argument is that? Right to repair isn't about you and me fiddling about with with broken appliances. It's about qualified and licensed people in repair shops being able to acquire parts and schematics to do their job. No one is arguing that your average Jane or Joe should be ones doing the repair! That's just another strawman that is easily dismantled...

linuxftw 7y ago
> qualified and licensed people in repair shops In the US, anyone can repair a vehicle and not void the warranty. No license needed.
- qayxc 7y ago
  Same in Europe and still completely besides the point. Also, this argument keeps ignoring that the ominous "anybody" is required to have access to a repair shop, tools, and the skills required. Once you take into account all these factors it quickly becomes apparent that not "anybody" will repair cars, appliances, and electronics by themselves; regardless of legislation. The people who do care (farmers in the US, electronics repair shops, that dude on YT who repairs Teslas, ...) incidentally are the ones with the skills, the tools, and the incentive. The licensed part comes into play as soon damage regulation due to improper use/repair occurs. This isn't a concern for private individuals (in the car example: there's a mandatory in-depth technical inspection every other year in Europe, so an improper repair results in a failed inspection anyway), though your insurance may become null and void depending on the circumstances.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    Anybody may repair cars but not everybody can repair cars.
- snuxoll 7y ago
  Not just vehicles, anything - the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does not discriminate.

jka 7y ago

Which parts of the potential legislation do you have concerns about with regard to difficulty for new entrants? Product obsolescence does seem to be a concern that the EU wishes to address: "The Commission will propose legislation on Sustainable Product Policy, to ensure that products placed on the EU market are designed to last longer, are easier to reuse, repair and recycle, and incorporate as much as possible recycled material instead of primary raw material. Single-use will be restricted, premature obsolescence tackled and the destruction of unsold durable goods banned."[0] I also think that legislating to ensure that issues such as energy efficiency, durability, repairability and recycling must be considered during the design phase are great progress too, as outlined in the Circular Economy Action Plan[1]. It's important to raise those concerns and get involved to help shape the process and outcomes. [0] - https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_420 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_... [1] - https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/new_circular_economy_action_plan.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/environment/circular-economy/pdf/new_ci...

as1mov 7y ago

> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. Yep, let's make everything a black box that can only be repaired under the watchful eye of a corporation, and they retain the right to refuse the repair and charge whatever the fuck they want. That's surely gonna work out well. That's surely gonna work out well.

clarry 7y ago

Which washing machine was that? Which display was that?

lnsru 7y ago
Siemens machine and Philips display. Siemens successfully disappeared, Philips acted ethically and sent refurbished one, because in the last days of warranty I managed to open support case.