5 ms·

What if I want to buy a device that is impossible to repair due to e.g. being inside metal/ceramics/glass?

simion314 7y ago
What if I want to buy a car that has no lights,breaks and pollutes 100x more then the norms? There are many hardened phones that are repairable. Edit: also a main issue with repairability is DRM and evil companies trying to use the copyright law so you won't publish repair manuals and schematics. Your ceramic phone won't suffer if someone shares a manual about it's internals .
- TomMarius 7y ago
  I was not talking about hardened phones, quite the opposite, a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it - that's the current direction of the market, which I like very much. Who exactly will I hurt with my phone, and when exactly is it going to gain around 1 metric ton and be hurtling down a highway? Since when is it fashionable to justify regulation with completely unrelated health/safety issues?
  - simion314 7y ago
    E-waste is a problem that affect everyone. Also I edited my answer to add the DRM and copyright on the manuals issues.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      And how exactly does this change the fashion of buying the latest iPhone-looking phone every second year? The older devices are perfectly functioning, they just don't look like the owners wish. Most people I know have a drawer full of 100% working phones, some broken displays here and there but that is trivial to have repaired today.
      - simion314 7y ago
        Don't iPhone look very similar? why do people need a new one? There are probably many answers depending on person, some just want latest and greatest, some people were affected by the battery issue(while it was hidden from them), some people break the phone and don't have an Apple store near or don't have the time to wait for a repair and they get a new phone. Sometimes the updates make the old phones slow or incompatible and websites and applications are pushing you to buy a new one.
        paulryanrogers 7y ago
        Apparently they are different enough that people mod them to look like year-later models. Since these wouldn't have different capabilities it can only be for asthetics or social signaling.
        TomMarius 7y ago
        We're talking about Europe, iPhone is the minority here. Most phones are Androids, so no battery issue of iPhone is much relevant, same with Apple Stores. Any phone (including iPhone) can be taken to nearly any service shop and it will probably be repaired within a day for an affordable price (if they have all parts, which they can order no problem; tools are not a problem a tall). They also don't want the latest and greatest because that costs them way too much, most phones are mid market here, and the capabilities of these phones don't change much (same hardware for a number of years is not an exception) - but the design does. And no, the display notch is a very distinct status symbol that made the upgrade very much needed, same with multiple cameras on the back. The few people who are buying Apple can choose between Apple stores, official Apple resellers and also a huge selection of unofficial (called "post-warranty") service shops. Not sure if it's OK with Apple, but it's definitely legal here, and it doesn't seem like these people have any problems with getting parts, getting tools or repairing the phones, but I agree that there should be an official way of doing so. It's true that some phones became unusable with and because of software updates - that is wrong, but also an unrelated issue.
      - efdee 7y ago
        Most people you know have a drawer full of 100% working phones? I guess that suffices to conclude that you have an extremely a-typical social circle.
  - rat9988 7y ago
    As a society we have to make choices. We prefer having repairable items over beautiful unrepairable ones, as the latter has been abused as an excuse to deny repairability even when possible.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      Do we? I am not really sure we do. I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants, and I know that it differs very much around 150 km to the north from me (where the border is) and that it is also roughly the opposite around 300 km to the south from me (where another border is).
      - simongray 7y ago
        > I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Maybe that was your objection?
        TomMarius 7y ago
        During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?
        simongray 7y ago
        > I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.
  - playfool 7y ago
    It was a metaphor for how things are wrong in the grand scheme of things even if they are possible and available. Repairability of things makes for less waste, if you ignore that fact and knowingly buy a phone which is going to end up in a bin after 2 years with no possibility to get proper recycling and repairing, you have a similar mindset to the SUV buying bunch. That is what he is trying to say (I think).
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-waste-ends-up-at-this-toxic-landfill-in-ghana https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.
      - lm28469 7y ago
        Which country is that ? You can easily check recycling import/export per country online so that should be trivial to fact check. Pro tip: it doesn't look good for US/EU.
        TomMarius 7y ago
        It is not my fault what the state does with it after I correctly dispose it. I am not sure how that looks for my country and I mostly don't care - not my job to do, I (have to) pay taxes for that. https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plastic-recycling/r~i:article:618907/ https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plast... ;-)
        lm28469 7y ago
        Your source date from 2008. Newer sources describe exactly what I'm talking about : https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caught-up-in-plastic-waste-disposal-crisis-in-europe https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caug... > I mostly don't care Yeah, I figured out that part. The good thing is that there are less and less people like you in this world.
- JoshTriplett 7y ago
  > Edit: also a main issue with repairability is DRM and evil companies trying to use the copyright law so you won't publish repair manuals and schematics. Your ceramic phone won't suffer if someone shares a manual about it's internals . I certainly think that you should have the absolute right to attempt to repair your device, and you shouldn't be legally prevented from doing so. On the other hand, I would like a secure, lightweight device, which lasts as long as possible on battery. All of those things will suffer if people who don't understand how modern phones achieve those things attempt to force them to be made up of piecewise-replaceable components.
  - simion314 7y ago
    The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone(and if you claim security then wipe the phone before you allow this swap).
    - JoshTriplett 7y ago
      > The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design. > Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone By all means! And "components" here may well mean "single integrated board", as it does on many laptops and phones.
      - avianlyric 7y ago
        > On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design. Source for this. No device has unpackaged unprotected battery cells just floating around. They may have many discrete batteries to use up all of the available space, but each unit is self contained with protection electronics and can be swapped independently of the others.
- userbinator 7y ago
  Ironically, a car that "pollutes 100x more then the norms" is also very likely to be the most repairable...
  - simion314 7y ago
    Most cars are repairable, there is an industry of alternative parts, you go to a mechanic, he plugs the laptop with the software , find the problem, then you chose from a website with parts the one you want , you have different alternatives. Also you can visit places with scraped cars and you can find parts there for cheap. There is no DRM at the moment to stop you reusing a door from a different car or a door made by any third party(not sure about latest models, maybe Tesla does this). I am not familiar with the latest models, do they changed that dramatically and I am out of date? Can't a competent mechanic replace any part on your new car?
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Yeah, Tesla does (though perhaps not with doors, yet). And if you look at the industrial tractor industry, you can see the future where it applies to even more and more vehicles.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      On a car most electronics are locked to the one VIN and it is difficult or impossible to change the part to a new VIN latter. This is done to ensure that "strippers" will not steal a car for the parts since the most valuable parts can't be sold.
      - hutzlibu 7y ago
        And it has the nice sideeffect, the the owner company controlls, what you can do with your car/where you buy your parts from.
kalium_xyz 7y ago
The legislation (at least ones like this) are not implemented thoughtlessly. Its likely that just allowing parts which have a short service life to be replaced would be enough. Also anything which is structural is likely not going to be the part which maintenance needs to be done on
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Would you say GDPR and cookie laws were implemented thoughtfully? (not asking if the laws themself are thoughtless)
  - rndgermandude 7y ago
    Yes on GDPR, no on cookie laws.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    GDPR was. Unfortunately there hasn't been any significant follow through yet. Yep. All those dark pattern cookie banners are illegal under GDPR.
  - simion314 7y ago
    The cookie problem we have is because the sites are actually tracking you m so maybe they should have forced to say "We are tracking you, please accept". Coockies used for actual technical reasons like to store a session ID do not need warnings. GDPR improved on that by forcing the websites to show me what are collecting and with who are sharing the data. I like this transparency, if you want to track me then tell me the details and I will decide if I visit your page or maybe find a different one.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      I'd rather be continuously tracked by a thousand websites and volunteer my birthday and location history to them than ever click a cookie or GDPR popup again.
rndgermandude 7y ago
Then you'll be out of luck. Same as you cannot legally buy leaded fuels in most countries anymore, even tho you might prefer them, and same as Bayer will not sell you Heroin(tm) to treat your cough anymore.
- fastball 7y ago
  Wait so you think you should not be allowed to buy "unrepairable" devices?
  - rndgermandude 7y ago
    No, I think it should be illegal for companies to sell new products. Which has the same net result as a buying ban for the new goods markets (and used goods market over time). Now the question that needs careful consideration is what constitutes "unrepairable" legally? It has to be sensible and legally ironclad.
  - playfool 7y ago
    I think so, yes. Think OP does as well.
  - efdee 7y ago
    Oh, you should be allowed to buy them. Manufacturers just shouldn't be allowed to produce them.
  - xorcist 7y ago
    I for one would love this. It used to be that you got a complete circuit schematic when buying a new TV. Perhaps we don't need to go that far, but just removing the moats that prevent people from building compatible hardware would go far. That toners include DRM chips just to protect consumer unfriendly business models still bothers me. It's just e-waste for no good.
  - tremon 7y ago
    Of course you should be allowed that. It's just that no one will be allowed to sell you one.

What if I want to buy a car that has no lights,breaks and pollutes 100x more then the norms? There are many hardened phones that are repairable. Edit: also a main issue with repairability is DRM and evil companies trying to use the copyright law so you won't publish repair manuals and schematics. Your ceramic phone won't suffer if someone shares a manual about it's internals .

TomMarius 7y ago
I was not talking about hardened phones, quite the opposite, a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it - that's the current direction of the market, which I like very much. Who exactly will I hurt with my phone, and when exactly is it going to gain around 1 metric ton and be hurtling down a highway? Since when is it fashionable to justify regulation with completely unrelated health/safety issues?
- simion314 7y ago
  E-waste is a problem that affect everyone. Also I edited my answer to add the DRM and copyright on the manuals issues.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    And how exactly does this change the fashion of buying the latest iPhone-looking phone every second year? The older devices are perfectly functioning, they just don't look like the owners wish. Most people I know have a drawer full of 100% working phones, some broken displays here and there but that is trivial to have repaired today.
    - simion314 7y ago
      Don't iPhone look very similar? why do people need a new one? There are probably many answers depending on person, some just want latest and greatest, some people were affected by the battery issue(while it was hidden from them), some people break the phone and don't have an Apple store near or don't have the time to wait for a repair and they get a new phone. Sometimes the updates make the old phones slow or incompatible and websites and applications are pushing you to buy a new one.
      - paulryanrogers 7y ago
        Apparently they are different enough that people mod them to look like year-later models. Since these wouldn't have different capabilities it can only be for asthetics or social signaling.
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        We're talking about Europe, iPhone is the minority here. Most phones are Androids, so no battery issue of iPhone is much relevant, same with Apple Stores. Any phone (including iPhone) can be taken to nearly any service shop and it will probably be repaired within a day for an affordable price (if they have all parts, which they can order no problem; tools are not a problem a tall). They also don't want the latest and greatest because that costs them way too much, most phones are mid market here, and the capabilities of these phones don't change much (same hardware for a number of years is not an exception) - but the design does. And no, the display notch is a very distinct status symbol that made the upgrade very much needed, same with multiple cameras on the back. The few people who are buying Apple can choose between Apple stores, official Apple resellers and also a huge selection of unofficial (called "post-warranty") service shops. Not sure if it's OK with Apple, but it's definitely legal here, and it doesn't seem like these people have any problems with getting parts, getting tools or repairing the phones, but I agree that there should be an official way of doing so. It's true that some phones became unusable with and because of software updates - that is wrong, but also an unrelated issue.
    - efdee 7y ago
      Most people you know have a drawer full of 100% working phones? I guess that suffices to conclude that you have an extremely a-typical social circle.
- rat9988 7y ago
  As a society we have to make choices. We prefer having repairable items over beautiful unrepairable ones, as the latter has been abused as an excuse to deny repairability even when possible.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    Do we? I am not really sure we do. I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants, and I know that it differs very much around 150 km to the north from me (where the border is) and that it is also roughly the opposite around 300 km to the south from me (where another border is).
    - simongray 7y ago
      > I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Maybe that was your objection?
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (parties, the representatives) is even talking about the right to repair, how can you be so sure the society here wants it?
        simongray 7y ago
        > I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.
- playfool 7y ago
  It was a metaphor for how things are wrong in the grand scheme of things even if they are possible and available. Repairability of things makes for less waste, if you ignore that fact and knowingly buy a phone which is going to end up in a bin after 2 years with no possibility to get proper recycling and repairing, you have a similar mindset to the SUV buying bunch. That is what he is trying to say (I think).
- lm28469 7y ago
  > a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-waste-ends-up-at-this-toxic-landfill-in-ghana https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      Which country is that ? You can easily check recycling import/export per country online so that should be trivial to fact check. Pro tip: it doesn't look good for US/EU.
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        It is not my fault what the state does with it after I correctly dispose it. I am not sure how that looks for my country and I mostly don't care - not my job to do, I (have to) pay taxes for that. https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plastic-recycling/r~i:article:618907/ https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/czechs-become-eu-leaders-in-plast... ;-)
        lm28469 7y ago
        Your source date from 2008. Newer sources describe exactly what I'm talking about : https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caught-up-in-plastic-waste-disposal-crisis-in-europe https://www.radio.cz/en/section/business/czech-republic-caug... > I mostly don't care Yeah, I figured out that part. The good thing is that there are less and less people like you in this world.
JoshTriplett 7y ago
> Edit: also a main issue with repairability is DRM and evil companies trying to use the copyright law so you won't publish repair manuals and schematics. Your ceramic phone won't suffer if someone shares a manual about it's internals . I certainly think that you should have the absolute right to attempt to repair your device, and you shouldn't be legally prevented from doing so. On the other hand, I would like a secure, lightweight device, which lasts as long as possible on battery. All of those things will suffer if people who don't understand how modern phones achieve those things attempt to force them to be made up of piecewise-replaceable components.
- simion314 7y ago
  The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone(and if you claim security then wipe the phone before you allow this swap).
  - JoshTriplett 7y ago
    > The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design. > Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone By all means! And "components" here may well mean "single integrated board", as it does on many laptops and phones.
    - avianlyric 7y ago
      > On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design. Source for this. No device has unpackaged unprotected battery cells just floating around. They may have many discrete batteries to use up all of the available space, but each unit is self contained with protection electronics and can be swapped independently of the others.
userbinator 7y ago
Ironically, a car that "pollutes 100x more then the norms" is also very likely to be the most repairable...
- simion314 7y ago
  Most cars are repairable, there is an industry of alternative parts, you go to a mechanic, he plugs the laptop with the software , find the problem, then you chose from a website with parts the one you want , you have different alternatives. Also you can visit places with scraped cars and you can find parts there for cheap. There is no DRM at the moment to stop you reusing a door from a different car or a door made by any third party(not sure about latest models, maybe Tesla does this). I am not familiar with the latest models, do they changed that dramatically and I am out of date? Can't a competent mechanic replace any part on your new car?
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Yeah, Tesla does (though perhaps not with doors, yet). And if you look at the industrial tractor industry, you can see the future where it applies to even more and more vehicles.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    On a car most electronics are locked to the one VIN and it is difficult or impossible to change the part to a new VIN latter. This is done to ensure that "strippers" will not steal a car for the parts since the most valuable parts can't be sold.
    - hutzlibu 7y ago
      And it has the nice sideeffect, the the owner company controlls, what you can do with your car/where you buy your parts from.

kalium_xyz 7y ago

The legislation (at least ones like this) are not implemented thoughtlessly. Its likely that just allowing parts which have a short service life to be replaced would be enough. Also anything which is structural is likely not going to be the part which maintenance needs to be done on

TomMarius 7y ago
Would you say GDPR and cookie laws were implemented thoughtfully? (not asking if the laws themself are thoughtless)
- rndgermandude 7y ago
  Yes on GDPR, no on cookie laws.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  GDPR was. Unfortunately there hasn't been any significant follow through yet. Yep. All those dark pattern cookie banners are illegal under GDPR.
- simion314 7y ago
  The cookie problem we have is because the sites are actually tracking you m so maybe they should have forced to say "We are tracking you, please accept". Coockies used for actual technical reasons like to store a session ID do not need warnings. GDPR improved on that by forcing the websites to show me what are collecting and with who are sharing the data. I like this transparency, if you want to track me then tell me the details and I will decide if I visit your page or maybe find a different one.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    I'd rather be continuously tracked by a thousand websites and volunteer my birthday and location history to them than ever click a cookie or GDPR popup again.

rndgermandude 7y ago

Then you'll be out of luck. Same as you cannot legally buy leaded fuels in most countries anymore, even tho you might prefer them, and same as Bayer will not sell you Heroin(tm) to treat your cough anymore.

fastball 7y ago
Wait so you think you should not be allowed to buy "unrepairable" devices?
- rndgermandude 7y ago
  No, I think it should be illegal for companies to sell new products. Which has the same net result as a buying ban for the new goods markets (and used goods market over time). Now the question that needs careful consideration is what constitutes "unrepairable" legally? It has to be sensible and legally ironclad.
- playfool 7y ago
  I think so, yes. Think OP does as well.
- efdee 7y ago
  Oh, you should be allowed to buy them. Manufacturers just shouldn't be allowed to produce them.
- xorcist 7y ago
  I for one would love this. It used to be that you got a complete circuit schematic when buying a new TV. Perhaps we don't need to go that far, but just removing the moats that prevent people from building compatible hardware would go far. That toners include DRM chips just to protect consumer unfriendly business models still bothers me. It's just e-waste for no good.
- tremon 7y ago
  Of course you should be allowed that. It's just that no one will be allowed to sell you one.