11 ms·

The future of work requires a return to apprenticeships

178 points by max_ 7y ago

Hokusai 7y ago
> While C-3PO and WALL-E might be good at processing algorithms, they can never replace living, breathing, thinking humans entirely in the workplace. I always read that "never" as "in the next 50 years". Never say never. > We have a surplus of people who are educated but don’t quite have the skills to fulfill companies’ needs. Yes. That is why there is entry level positions like 'junior developer'. BTW, apprenticeship should be also a full-time paid job. If you have difficulty finding people maybe is that you are not paying enough. Trying to get starters in a field to accept very low pays or not pay at all makes the profession less desirable and reduces the number of candidates in the long term.
- ldeangelis 7y ago
  > While C-3PO and WALL-E might be good at processing algorithms, they can never replace living, breathing, thinking humans entirely in the workplace. I think another flaw in the article is the "entirely". Most of the time you won't automate everything, you will replace 10 factory workers with a machine and a technician.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > I always read that "never" as "in the next 50 years". Never say never. That's what people are saying every 10 years for the last 70 years. Until it's a reality it's pure sci fi, and we shouldn't care about sci fi when trying to solve current issues.
  - Finnucane 7y ago
    Just like people saying we'll have fusion power in the next 50 years, which people have been saying since at least the 1960s.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Having invested minimal money in fusion it’s unsurprising that it’s not here. ITER began in 1985 as a Reagan–Gorbachev initiative, it received funding in 2006, and it’s still under construction.
    - austhrow743 7y ago
      I think people get confused with fusion power being 50 years away if we focused and through resources at it, and it being 50 years away in reality. They should be saying "fusion could be x years away if we tried for it."
- collyw 7y ago
  > apprenticeship should be also a full-time paid job What makes it different from a job then?
  - Finnucane 7y ago
    Primarily that it is a job-training position. You're not expected to really know how to do the job when you get it. No one is really expecting it's going to go back to like it was in Ye Olde Dayes when apprentices started as children shoveling coal into the ovens (I worked for a while in a cooking school where some of the instructors had actually gone through that).
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Or as my dad said you spend the first year filling and fetching the Tea
  - ken 7y ago
    It literally is-a job. If you mean what distinguishes it from non-apprenticeship jobs, then (at least in the USA) the government declares [1] that it is: "PAID JOB + EDUCATION + CREDENTIALS". [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers
  - magicalhippo 7y ago
    Here in Norway it means slightly less pay and less responsibility. For example, I just had some wiring redone in my home, the certified electrician had an apprentice with him. The apprentice got instructed and monitored by the certified electrician, and on my bill they charged a fair bit less for his work. So it is a job, just the job title is a bit different.
    - wolco 7y ago
      They charged you for the person who gave instructions and for the apprentice? I feel like they took advantage of you. Having a company push the costs of training someone to you is unfair. If the professional did the work himself it would have been done quickier and with more quality. Instead you paided. Surprised they didn't send a team of 5 to help.
- ken 7y ago
  If you're not paying them, then it's not an "apprenticeship". The first ingredient in an apprenticeship, according to the U.S. government [1], is that you "Earn a competitive wage from day one". [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    So I think what GP is asking is, what is the practical difference between an "apprenticeship" and an entry-level position that involves significant on-the-job training?
    - ken 7y ago
      The US DOL has a list of FAQs on that webpage [1], including "How is apprenticeship different from other types of work-based training models?" For example: "Apprenticeships include a structured training plan, with a focus on mastering specific skills an employer needs to fill an occupation within their organization" and "Apprentices receive individualized training with an experienced mentor who walks them through their entire process" and "Apprenticeships lead to an industry-recognized credential". I've never heard of a "junior developer" position that had a standard syllabus and classes, or that offered an "industry-recognized and portable credential" at the end. Interestingly, that DOL page does link to an outline of a "Computer Programmer" apprenticeship [2], but it's rather sparse, and ancient. The only languages taught are JCL, COBOL, and FORTRAN! I guess it hasn't been used in 50 years. [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/help https://www.apprenticeship.gov/help [2]: https://innovativeapprenticeship.org/oc_st_post/computer-programmer/ https://innovativeapprenticeship.org/oc_st_post/computer-pro...
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        Yes Apprenticeships are like that I did a mech eng one in the UK (1980's) and we where still taught how to belt drives worked - ie the water /steam powered factories in the 17th /18th century
      - spitfire 7y ago
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  The article is talking about the traditional swiss/german model where an apprentice signed papers for a fixed term contract - they are not employees Also certainly in the UK and the USA the cohort that would have filled the advanced apprentices (not trade ) that realistically could train junior developers now just goes to university. So you have lost the ideal entry cohort - maybe ex vets in technical areas might but they would have all ready had the training to that level NVQ 3 4 and 5
- klmadfejno 7y ago
  The problem with that statement is 'entirely' You don't need to replace people entirely. You need to give them tools to increase productivity by 50%, then magically observe as 1/2 the workforce disappears. The world is sloowwwwww to adapt. If everyone put one month of attention into learning basic python, we'd see a massive productivity increase for back office functions that would make tens of thousands of people redundant. Of course, that will never happen, but the tech literacy of the average young person is increasing by the day... I disagree with your second premise too. Reducing the number of people in a profession increases the profits to the ones that make it in, thereby making it more desireable. Probably less candidates as you say.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Slightly more than half, since your worst performers tend to be disproportionately hit, and you reduce support staff and managers.
  - wolco 7y ago
    Getting everyone to one standard spaces vs tabs would cause a breakdown in society. Best we don't go that route.
Traster 7y ago
>But if you put the intelligent, intuitive individual on the factory floor or trading floor to learn the complex supply chain and shadow the most skilled in the business, then you not only give them a well-paying job with growth potential, but you also give them the bespoke skillset to flourish in the role and the industry. >This model isn’t new. It’s apprenticeship This model is the existing model for every new graduate who starts a job today. Any new hire in a decent company is going to be getting taught the industry skills from more senior members of the team. Plenty of companies have mentoring programmes. The fact they have a degree which provides the basic mathematical and theoretical pre-requisites for their job doesn't mean they turn up at Google on day one and are expected to sink or swim. Even beyond that, plenty of companies provide new college graduate schemes where you rotate through the business. I just don't understand what this article is bringing to the table that's new, other than maybe informing us that some Swiss banks were failing to run their business properly for a while.
- flohofwoe 7y ago
  I think the article is actually about the "Duales Ausbildungssystem" practiced in Switzerland, Germany (and a few others), but without explicitly mentioning it. In this system, learning a trade's practical aspects is mostly the job of a specific company the student is employed with (or rather "pre-employed"), and the theoretical/general aspects is the job of the country's education system. It's a good alternative to a purely academical system like universities, or getting an extremely company-specific skill set only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system
  - ldeangelis 7y ago
    We have a system that seems close to this in France called "Alternance". In this system, you spend some fraction of your time (1/2 to 2/3) working in a company, which pays for your studies, and the rest studying. You are also paid, which is great.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
keiru 7y ago
Related: Samo Burja is a sociologist with a pretty tidy and poignant YouTube channel. He has a lot of stuff on human institutions (from corporations to civilizations), their underlying social mechanics and what makes or breaks them. He emphasizes the importance of patronage and apprenticeship viewed as a "social technology" that allow for the correct passing of knowledge that is essential to maintaining institutional life-cycles. Short introductory videos: Why We Still Need Masters & Apprentices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ribdRDO75Rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ribdRDO75Rk Dynasties: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIYEhjI2xE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIYEhjI2xE Functional Institutions are the Exception: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fanjkT3pi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fanjkT3pi0 Intellectual Dark Matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPAD1UjpsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPAD1UjpsE Longer and very worthwhile talks: Civilization: Institutions, Knowledge, and the Future: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdYmuFyjWM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdYmuFyjWM Institutions And Intellectual Dark Matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aA-YeBb5V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aA-YeBb5V4
beardedman 7y ago
Been saying something similar for ages. One thing they're not replacing soon though; is creativity. Designers, strategists, architects, technologists, problem solvers, etc. - these people will always be needed.
- ken 7y ago
  I don't know what to make of this. Are you implying there's some conflict between apprenticeship and creativity?
  - beardedman 7y ago
    > One of the major concerns of the Fourth Industrial Revolution is that artificial intelligence and automation – robots – will eliminate jobs, both blue-collar and white-collar roles across a variety of sectors. I wasn't implying anything. I was commenting on the general content of the article.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  You can be much more creative if you have a strong foundation which is something an apprenticeship can give you.
generalpass 7y ago
The issue I have observed is that management at many companies, most especially in tech, is so terrible that they don't know how to train people (e.g., it used to be assumed that when a company hired a new employee, the employee would need to be trained on the company's computer systems, but now it is required that the employee be hired already proficient in the company's computer systems). Coupled with being located in very expensive regions, tech companies have to hire at high wages, making training very expensive already. Something will really have to give somewhere for this to change.
k__ 7y ago
In Germany we never went away from them. But I have to admit, most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Also, the IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality. The schools use outdated material and if the companies can't compansate for that, the students are on their own.
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  > most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Could you please elaborate on this? What do they teach?
  - k__ 7y ago
    A few of my friends learned trades like optometrist and cosmetician and never found a job.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.2% so it seems something’s working. Youth unemployment is also far lower in Germany than the European average, 7.6% rather than 23.5%, and unemployment among those who finished apprenticeship schemes rarely lasts longer than six months[1]. [1] Youth Unemployment After Apprenticeship Training and Individual, Occupation and Training Employer Characteristics http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf
      - k__ 7y ago
        Yes, the problem is, people learning optometrist, and then end up working in retail.
- core-questions 7y ago
  > IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality In Canada, I have found that while there's no official program for IT apprenticeship, the cultural value of implicit apprenticeship is there; perhaps an inheritance from our excellent trades programs. Thing is, you'll find it mostly in the older, more-local institutions; not so much in the sexier, flashier software companies and international conglomerates. When I started my career, fresh out of school, I worked at a small (~200 person) company. There was an IT greybeard (well, he seemed so to me, but he was only 40something). He taught me a lot, but more importantly like a good mentor he gave me room to grow, let me take on projects way beyond what any sane person would have given a 21 year old to work on, etc. The result was that I stuck around, contributed an awful lot of value, and then became eminently more employable than I had been. The next job at a much larger but still local institution had a real 60something greybeard that took this concept even further. Even now as I approach 40, there's a 50something guy at my current "senior" job who is just that much more "senior" and his wisdom is a continual benefit. It's obviously made me realize that I need to do the same thing to pay it forward. It doesn't strictly need to be an organized program where I get some co-op student, but that _can_ work; I've had some in the past to great success. What it does need to be is a keen younger person who has a learning style that benefits from personal interaction. That's really not everyone in our field; some people are simply self-starting learners and they bristle at mentorship. We should never constrain such people to "require" someone breathing down their neck, as it were; but for people who need the guidance, that have the talent and aptitude but benefit from someone else setting their focus, it is indispensable.
gen220 7y ago
I graduated college in 4.5 years, with 6 different short internship stints at companies and research groups. At my first internship, I was more dead weight than productive, but by my last three I was a contributor to many nontrivial projects. Those experiences (1) were absolutely invaluable in my growth into a capable engineer (2) gave me a sharp perception of what life is like at different-stage companies (headcount 5-10 to headcount 5000+), and (3) gave me an idea of how “industry trends” actually manifested in different companies. By the end of my years in college, it seemed like these experiences had put me on a different track, career-wise, even though I was no smarter than my peers. Friends who had maxed out their investment in GPA and personal projects were in a relative bubble. They could crack the coding interview, but didn’t know their way around a shell, or what the relative risks of adopting one database over another might be. In hindsight, I guess these internships might have leapfrogged me past the “junior engineer” phase. In any case, the experience had positive impacts on my career. I guess it might not be a path for everyone (and I’m very grateful for those first few companies that paid me for those relatively unproductive summers), but I agree that these kinds of expected-to-be-unproductive incubative periods are under-looked milestones to growth that I can’t recommend enough, especially if you get them at completely different places.
- vsareto 7y ago
  Most colleges would do well to get this into their curriculum at some point: https://missing.csail.mit.edu/ https://missing.csail.mit.edu/ >what the relative risks of adopting one database over another might be Entire companies get that wrong. Those licensing terms are complex legalese a lot of the time. Databases are not trivial things. You always get new risks as more product features get added. It's very difficult to predict the future on that front and how your database(s) will handle those challenges.
- iffybookmark 7y ago
  >Friends who had maxed out their investment in GPA [...] were in a relative bubble. Yep 1000% agree > Friends who had maxed out their investment in [...] personal projects were in a relative bubble. -0% agree, I'm actually a bit baffled that you mention it in the same breath. I've found, in my own xp and in others', that personal projects on your own are almost the only way to learn how to be high-impact. In many companies, they've already decided their db, their frameworks, etc. and you'll need a lot of political capital and technical trust to be able to start a real conversation about splitting the stack and so on. So, here, you'll learn about how to work on existing rails doing n+1 tasks and bugfixing. In a personal project, you start with an empty dir and work from there. You end up knowing why you like pg over mysql. You know why it was worth it to use rails instead of rolling your own. etc etc. I have some social friends who also do software who don't really have it as a hobby (just a job) and while that's totally fine, they're unable to answer questions like "what framework does your work use?" (answer I found later: Spring). To their credit, it's probably a good thing at some level that the company has managed to shield people from that much detail. Obviously everyone's journey is different, but I've always found that individuals who can go "I want to build <thing>" and then google/IRC until it's built are generally pretty impactful people.
ggregoire 7y ago
IT, software engineering and project management apprenticeships are very common in France (and in Europe I guess). 1) In addition of not paying anything for your education, you actually finish your education with a non-negligible amount of money on your bank account. 2) Also you are pretty sure to get job offers even before finishing and higher entry salaries than other students (since you already have a few years of professional experience). 3) Finally, apprenticeship is just great if you think school/college is kinda boring.
spodek 7y ago
We can also switch to project-based learning from a coercive educational system based on tests, factual recall, abstract analysis, reading and writing papers, and other things divorced from life. Project-based learning doesn't just teach practical skills. It also teaches how to learn, how to find your priorities, self-awareness, and other social and emotional skills.
blunte 7y ago
From what I have observed, the shift away from apprenticeship and on-the-job training to "must hire on with every imaginable skill already" corresponds to the corporate shift from 5 to 10 year views to quarterly views (the almighty quarterly earnings pet share report).
015UUZn8aEvW 7y ago
Someone I know well, who owns an engineering company, used to be a big proponent of this but has soured on it. It absolutely is possible for people to learn complex technical skills (like mechanical or software engineering) in a professional setting. The problem is that the trainees are mostly dead weight for an extended period of time. The employers who hire them need confidence that the trainees will remain with them for long enough to provide a payoff for the initial investment. If the trainees can just leave whenever they feel like it (my friend's experience), the whole thing is a waste of time and money. I'd be interested to know how this is handled in countries where apprenticeships are more common. There must be some combination of legal and cultural restraints on trainees bailing after the employers have invested in them.
- saber6 7y ago
  Flipside: I've encountered numerous employers (bosses) that don't seem to understand the concept of market value. If you take someone worth X(1) and train them up to be worth X(5) on the standard market, but then pay them somewhere between X(2) and X(3), don't be surprised when common sense prevails -- eg the person realizes they can get 25%+ pay raise by walking across the street, and does so.
- crispyambulance 7y ago
  > If the trainees can just leave whenever they feel like it (my friend's experience), the whole thing is a waste of time and money. OK, but if you think about it optimistically, it ALSO means that you're able to hire folks that have trained at and left other places.
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  - 015UUZn8aEvW 7y ago
    Yes, but only if it's a common practice. Doesn't work if you're an early adopter.
iamcasen 7y ago
This is obvious for all but the most obtuse. A university education does very little, if anything, to prepare someone for a career. After all, that's not the purpose of a university. Many big tech companies hire candidates straight out of school for very high salaries and signing bonuses simply because they need the raw intellectual material. These new grads are mostly useless in terms of what they are capable of contributing, and the company uses signing bonuses as golden handcuffs to keep them at the company long enough to make their sunk cost worth it. Take it from me, when I'm hiring people with little experience, I'm hiring them for the energy they possess. Are they passionate, curious, and good at working with others. Do I think they will fit in, and will they enjoy the kind of work they will be given. Then I place them on easy starter projects and they progress from there. That is essentially a de-facto apprenticeship. The only difference is that apprenticeships of old were a much more intimate relationship between the master and apprentice. Wouldn't that be nice! Our culture has really, drastically, moved away from intimacy on all levels.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  I think the PhD is the best example of a modern knowledge-worker apprenticeship. Three or more years with an expert passing on their knowledge to you one-to-one, finished by a magnus opus to show you’re ready to work on your own.
Bombthecat 7y ago
Was thinking about it. I think at the end we go back to pay the "master" to train the junior. Why? If computers, ai etc take over more and more "simple" tasks. You won't need a junior anymore. You only take one if you get paid..
Paianni 7y ago
My last apprenticeship was four days working plus a day of college per week. My employer...had little for me to do most of the time and I was restricted from finding things to get involved in outside our office (about 15 people). The structure of the department and the difference in qualification meant I had no one to work or learn with on a continuous basis. At the end of the two-year contract there were no positions available for me so I moved on.

178 points by max_ 7y ago

> While C-3PO and WALL-E might be good at processing algorithms, they can never replace living, breathing, thinking humans entirely in the workplace. I always read that "never" as "in the next 50 years". Never say never. > We have a surplus of people who are educated but don’t quite have the skills to fulfill companies’ needs. Yes. That is why there is entry level positions like 'junior developer'. BTW, apprenticeship should be also a full-time paid job. If you have difficulty finding people maybe is that you are not paying enough. Trying to get starters in a field to accept very low pays or not pay at all makes the profession less desirable and reduces the number of candidates in the long term.

ldeangelis 7y ago
> While C-3PO and WALL-E might be good at processing algorithms, they can never replace living, breathing, thinking humans entirely in the workplace. I think another flaw in the article is the "entirely". Most of the time you won't automate everything, you will replace 10 factory workers with a machine and a technician.
lm28469 7y ago
> I always read that "never" as "in the next 50 years". Never say never. That's what people are saying every 10 years for the last 70 years. Until it's a reality it's pure sci fi, and we shouldn't care about sci fi when trying to solve current issues.
- Finnucane 7y ago
  Just like people saying we'll have fusion power in the next 50 years, which people have been saying since at least the 1960s.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Having invested minimal money in fusion it’s unsurprising that it’s not here. ITER began in 1985 as a Reagan–Gorbachev initiative, it received funding in 2006, and it’s still under construction.
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    I think people get confused with fusion power being 50 years away if we focused and through resources at it, and it being 50 years away in reality. They should be saying "fusion could be x years away if we tried for it."
collyw 7y ago
> apprenticeship should be also a full-time paid job What makes it different from a job then?
- Finnucane 7y ago
  Primarily that it is a job-training position. You're not expected to really know how to do the job when you get it. No one is really expecting it's going to go back to like it was in Ye Olde Dayes when apprentices started as children shoveling coal into the ovens (I worked for a while in a cooking school where some of the instructors had actually gone through that).
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Or as my dad said you spend the first year filling and fetching the Tea
- ken 7y ago
  It literally is-a job. If you mean what distinguishes it from non-apprenticeship jobs, then (at least in the USA) the government declares [1] that it is: "PAID JOB + EDUCATION + CREDENTIALS". [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers
- magicalhippo 7y ago
  Here in Norway it means slightly less pay and less responsibility. For example, I just had some wiring redone in my home, the certified electrician had an apprentice with him. The apprentice got instructed and monitored by the certified electrician, and on my bill they charged a fair bit less for his work. So it is a job, just the job title is a bit different.
  - wolco 7y ago
    They charged you for the person who gave instructions and for the apprentice? I feel like they took advantage of you. Having a company push the costs of training someone to you is unfair. If the professional did the work himself it would have been done quickier and with more quality. Instead you paided. Surprised they didn't send a team of 5 to help.
ken 7y ago
If you're not paying them, then it's not an "apprenticeship". The first ingredient in an apprenticeship, according to the U.S. government [1], is that you "Earn a competitive wage from day one". [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  So I think what GP is asking is, what is the practical difference between an "apprenticeship" and an entry-level position that involves significant on-the-job training?
  - ken 7y ago
    The US DOL has a list of FAQs on that webpage [1], including "How is apprenticeship different from other types of work-based training models?" For example: "Apprenticeships include a structured training plan, with a focus on mastering specific skills an employer needs to fill an occupation within their organization" and "Apprentices receive individualized training with an experienced mentor who walks them through their entire process" and "Apprenticeships lead to an industry-recognized credential". I've never heard of a "junior developer" position that had a standard syllabus and classes, or that offered an "industry-recognized and portable credential" at the end. Interestingly, that DOL page does link to an outline of a "Computer Programmer" apprenticeship [2], but it's rather sparse, and ancient. The only languages taught are JCL, COBOL, and FORTRAN! I guess it hasn't been used in 50 years. [1]: https://www.apprenticeship.gov/help https://www.apprenticeship.gov/help [2]: https://innovativeapprenticeship.org/oc_st_post/computer-programmer/ https://innovativeapprenticeship.org/oc_st_post/computer-pro...
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Yes Apprenticeships are like that I did a mech eng one in the UK (1980's) and we where still taught how to belt drives worked - ie the water /steam powered factories in the 17th /18th century
    - spitfire 7y ago
C1sc0cat 7y ago
The article is talking about the traditional swiss/german model where an apprentice signed papers for a fixed term contract - they are not employees Also certainly in the UK and the USA the cohort that would have filled the advanced apprentices (not trade ) that realistically could train junior developers now just goes to university. So you have lost the ideal entry cohort - maybe ex vets in technical areas might but they would have all ready had the training to that level NVQ 3 4 and 5
klmadfejno 7y ago
The problem with that statement is 'entirely' You don't need to replace people entirely. You need to give them tools to increase productivity by 50%, then magically observe as 1/2 the workforce disappears. The world is sloowwwwww to adapt. If everyone put one month of attention into learning basic python, we'd see a massive productivity increase for back office functions that would make tens of thousands of people redundant. Of course, that will never happen, but the tech literacy of the average young person is increasing by the day... I disagree with your second premise too. Reducing the number of people in a profession increases the profits to the ones that make it in, thereby making it more desireable. Probably less candidates as you say.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Slightly more than half, since your worst performers tend to be disproportionately hit, and you reduce support staff and managers.
- wolco 7y ago
  Getting everyone to one standard spaces vs tabs would cause a breakdown in society. Best we don't go that route.

Traster 7y ago

>But if you put the intelligent, intuitive individual on the factory floor or trading floor to learn the complex supply chain and shadow the most skilled in the business, then you not only give them a well-paying job with growth potential, but you also give them the bespoke skillset to flourish in the role and the industry. >This model isn’t new. It’s apprenticeship This model is the existing model for every new graduate who starts a job today. Any new hire in a decent company is going to be getting taught the industry skills from more senior members of the team. Plenty of companies have mentoring programmes. The fact they have a degree which provides the basic mathematical and theoretical pre-requisites for their job doesn't mean they turn up at Google on day one and are expected to sink or swim. Even beyond that, plenty of companies provide new college graduate schemes where you rotate through the business. I just don't understand what this article is bringing to the table that's new, other than maybe informing us that some Swiss banks were failing to run their business properly for a while.

flohofwoe 7y ago
I think the article is actually about the "Duales Ausbildungssystem" practiced in Switzerland, Germany (and a few others), but without explicitly mentioning it. In this system, learning a trade's practical aspects is mostly the job of a specific company the student is employed with (or rather "pre-employed"), and the theoretical/general aspects is the job of the country's education system. It's a good alternative to a purely academical system like universities, or getting an extremely company-specific skill set only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system
- ldeangelis 7y ago
  We have a system that seems close to this in France called "Alternance". In this system, you spend some fraction of your time (1/2 to 2/3) working in a company, which pays for your studies, and the rest studying. You are also paid, which is great.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago

keiru 7y ago

Related: Samo Burja is a sociologist with a pretty tidy and poignant YouTube channel. He has a lot of stuff on human institutions (from corporations to civilizations), their underlying social mechanics and what makes or breaks them. He emphasizes the importance of patronage and apprenticeship viewed as a "social technology" that allow for the correct passing of knowledge that is essential to maintaining institutional life-cycles. Short introductory videos: Why We Still Need Masters & Apprentices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ribdRDO75Rk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ribdRDO75Rk Dynasties: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIYEhjI2xE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIYEhjI2xE Functional Institutions are the Exception: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fanjkT3pi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fanjkT3pi0 Intellectual Dark Matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPAD1UjpsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPAD1UjpsE Longer and very worthwhile talks: Civilization: Institutions, Knowledge, and the Future: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdYmuFyjWM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdYmuFyjWM Institutions And Intellectual Dark Matter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aA-YeBb5V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aA-YeBb5V4

beardedman 7y ago

Been saying something similar for ages. One thing they're not replacing soon though; is creativity. Designers, strategists, architects, technologists, problem solvers, etc. - these people will always be needed.

ken 7y ago
I don't know what to make of this. Are you implying there's some conflict between apprenticeship and creativity?
- beardedman 7y ago
  > One of the major concerns of the Fourth Industrial Revolution is that artificial intelligence and automation – robots – will eliminate jobs, both blue-collar and white-collar roles across a variety of sectors. I wasn't implying anything. I was commenting on the general content of the article.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
You can be much more creative if you have a strong foundation which is something an apprenticeship can give you.

generalpass 7y ago

The issue I have observed is that management at many companies, most especially in tech, is so terrible that they don't know how to train people (e.g., it used to be assumed that when a company hired a new employee, the employee would need to be trained on the company's computer systems, but now it is required that the employee be hired already proficient in the company's computer systems). Coupled with being located in very expensive regions, tech companies have to hire at high wages, making training very expensive already. Something will really have to give somewhere for this to change.

k__ 7y ago

In Germany we never went away from them. But I have to admit, most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Also, the IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality. The schools use outdated material and if the companies can't compansate for that, the students are on their own.

smnrchrds 7y ago
> most teach rather outdated jobs no companies are hiring for anymore. Could you please elaborate on this? What do they teach?
- k__ 7y ago
  A few of my friends learned trades like optometrist and cosmetician and never found a job.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.2% so it seems something’s working. Youth unemployment is also far lower in Germany than the European average, 7.6% rather than 23.5%, and unemployment among those who finished apprenticeship schemes rarely lasts longer than six months[1]. [1] Youth Unemployment After Apprenticeship Training and Individual, Occupation and Training Employer Characteristics http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp14052.pdf
    - k__ 7y ago
      Yes, the problem is, people learning optometrist, and then end up working in retail.
core-questions 7y ago
> IT apprenticeships often aren't good quality In Canada, I have found that while there's no official program for IT apprenticeship, the cultural value of implicit apprenticeship is there; perhaps an inheritance from our excellent trades programs. Thing is, you'll find it mostly in the older, more-local institutions; not so much in the sexier, flashier software companies and international conglomerates. When I started my career, fresh out of school, I worked at a small (~200 person) company. There was an IT greybeard (well, he seemed so to me, but he was only 40something). He taught me a lot, but more importantly like a good mentor he gave me room to grow, let me take on projects way beyond what any sane person would have given a 21 year old to work on, etc. The result was that I stuck around, contributed an awful lot of value, and then became eminently more employable than I had been. The next job at a much larger but still local institution had a real 60something greybeard that took this concept even further. Even now as I approach 40, there's a 50something guy at my current "senior" job who is just that much more "senior" and his wisdom is a continual benefit. It's obviously made me realize that I need to do the same thing to pay it forward. It doesn't strictly need to be an organized program where I get some co-op student, but that _can_ work; I've had some in the past to great success. What it does need to be is a keen younger person who has a learning style that benefits from personal interaction. That's really not everyone in our field; some people are simply self-starting learners and they bristle at mentorship. We should never constrain such people to "require" someone breathing down their neck, as it were; but for people who need the guidance, that have the talent and aptitude but benefit from someone else setting their focus, it is indispensable.

gen220 7y ago

I graduated college in 4.5 years, with 6 different short internship stints at companies and research groups. At my first internship, I was more dead weight than productive, but by my last three I was a contributor to many nontrivial projects. Those experiences (1) were absolutely invaluable in my growth into a capable engineer (2) gave me a sharp perception of what life is like at different-stage companies (headcount 5-10 to headcount 5000+), and (3) gave me an idea of how “industry trends” actually manifested in different companies. By the end of my years in college, it seemed like these experiences had put me on a different track, career-wise, even though I was no smarter than my peers. Friends who had maxed out their investment in GPA and personal projects were in a relative bubble. They could crack the coding interview, but didn’t know their way around a shell, or what the relative risks of adopting one database over another might be. In hindsight, I guess these internships might have leapfrogged me past the “junior engineer” phase. In any case, the experience had positive impacts on my career. I guess it might not be a path for everyone (and I’m very grateful for those first few companies that paid me for those relatively unproductive summers), but I agree that these kinds of expected-to-be-unproductive incubative periods are under-looked milestones to growth that I can’t recommend enough, especially if you get them at completely different places.

vsareto 7y ago
Most colleges would do well to get this into their curriculum at some point: https://missing.csail.mit.edu/ https://missing.csail.mit.edu/ >what the relative risks of adopting one database over another might be Entire companies get that wrong. Those licensing terms are complex legalese a lot of the time. Databases are not trivial things. You always get new risks as more product features get added. It's very difficult to predict the future on that front and how your database(s) will handle those challenges.
iffybookmark 7y ago
>Friends who had maxed out their investment in GPA [...] were in a relative bubble. Yep 1000% agree > Friends who had maxed out their investment in [...] personal projects were in a relative bubble. -0% agree, I'm actually a bit baffled that you mention it in the same breath. I've found, in my own xp and in others', that personal projects on your own are almost the only way to learn how to be high-impact. In many companies, they've already decided their db, their frameworks, etc. and you'll need a lot of political capital and technical trust to be able to start a real conversation about splitting the stack and so on. So, here, you'll learn about how to work on existing rails doing n+1 tasks and bugfixing. In a personal project, you start with an empty dir and work from there. You end up knowing why you like pg over mysql. You know why it was worth it to use rails instead of rolling your own. etc etc. I have some social friends who also do software who don't really have it as a hobby (just a job) and while that's totally fine, they're unable to answer questions like "what framework does your work use?" (answer I found later: Spring). To their credit, it's probably a good thing at some level that the company has managed to shield people from that much detail. Obviously everyone's journey is different, but I've always found that individuals who can go "I want to build <thing>" and then google/IRC until it's built are generally pretty impactful people.

ggregoire 7y ago

IT, software engineering and project management apprenticeships are very common in France (and in Europe I guess). 1) In addition of not paying anything for your education, you actually finish your education with a non-negligible amount of money on your bank account. 2) Also you are pretty sure to get job offers even before finishing and higher entry salaries than other students (since you already have a few years of professional experience). 3) Finally, apprenticeship is just great if you think school/college is kinda boring.

spodek 7y ago

We can also switch to project-based learning from a coercive educational system based on tests, factual recall, abstract analysis, reading and writing papers, and other things divorced from life. Project-based learning doesn't just teach practical skills. It also teaches how to learn, how to find your priorities, self-awareness, and other social and emotional skills.

blunte 7y ago

From what I have observed, the shift away from apprenticeship and on-the-job training to "must hire on with every imaginable skill already" corresponds to the corporate shift from 5 to 10 year views to quarterly views (the almighty quarterly earnings pet share report).

015UUZn8aEvW 7y ago

Someone I know well, who owns an engineering company, used to be a big proponent of this but has soured on it. It absolutely is possible for people to learn complex technical skills (like mechanical or software engineering) in a professional setting. The problem is that the trainees are mostly dead weight for an extended period of time. The employers who hire them need confidence that the trainees will remain with them for long enough to provide a payoff for the initial investment. If the trainees can just leave whenever they feel like it (my friend's experience), the whole thing is a waste of time and money. I'd be interested to know how this is handled in countries where apprenticeships are more common. There must be some combination of legal and cultural restraints on trainees bailing after the employers have invested in them.

saber6 7y ago
Flipside: I've encountered numerous employers (bosses) that don't seem to understand the concept of market value. If you take someone worth X(1) and train them up to be worth X(5) on the standard market, but then pay them somewhere between X(2) and X(3), don't be surprised when common sense prevails -- eg the person realizes they can get 25%+ pay raise by walking across the street, and does so.
crispyambulance 7y ago
> If the trainees can just leave whenever they feel like it (my friend's experience), the whole thing is a waste of time and money. OK, but if you think about it optimistically, it ALSO means that you're able to hire folks that have trained at and left other places.
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- 015UUZn8aEvW 7y ago
  Yes, but only if it's a common practice. Doesn't work if you're an early adopter.

iamcasen 7y ago

This is obvious for all but the most obtuse. A university education does very little, if anything, to prepare someone for a career. After all, that's not the purpose of a university. Many big tech companies hire candidates straight out of school for very high salaries and signing bonuses simply because they need the raw intellectual material. These new grads are mostly useless in terms of what they are capable of contributing, and the company uses signing bonuses as golden handcuffs to keep them at the company long enough to make their sunk cost worth it. Take it from me, when I'm hiring people with little experience, I'm hiring them for the energy they possess. Are they passionate, curious, and good at working with others. Do I think they will fit in, and will they enjoy the kind of work they will be given. Then I place them on easy starter projects and they progress from there. That is essentially a de-facto apprenticeship. The only difference is that apprenticeships of old were a much more intimate relationship between the master and apprentice. Wouldn't that be nice! Our culture has really, drastically, moved away from intimacy on all levels.

chrisseaton 7y ago
I think the PhD is the best example of a modern knowledge-worker apprenticeship. Three or more years with an expert passing on their knowledge to you one-to-one, finished by a magnus opus to show you’re ready to work on your own.

Bombthecat 7y ago

Was thinking about it. I think at the end we go back to pay the "master" to train the junior. Why? If computers, ai etc take over more and more "simple" tasks. You won't need a junior anymore. You only take one if you get paid..

Paianni 7y ago

My last apprenticeship was four days working plus a day of college per week. My employer...had little for me to do most of the time and I was restricted from finding things to get involved in outside our office (about 15 people). The structure of the department and the difference in qualification meant I had no one to work or learn with on a continuous basis. At the end of the two-year contract there were no positions available for me so I moved on.