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Did they just charge her a quarter of a million dollars for refusing to speak. What a crock of thuggy shit justice department.

westmeal 7y ago
Land of the free, home of the brave.
- adammunich 7y ago
  Home for the brave, lately
- lostgame 7y ago
  Especially given its current leadership, I often turn away jobs of more than two times my salary - in USD (I live in Canada) - to avoid living in America. That Trump ever got elected - or was ever seriously considered as a candidate - tells me that enough of the the population is seriously disturbed that I’d like nothing to do with it. And then there’s the war atrocities...
  - pentae 7y ago
    This says more about you than 'enough of the population being seriously disturbed'
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative another comment is or you feel it is. It helps nothing, only makes this place even worse, and is what the guidelines explicitly ask you not to do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ramphastidae 7y ago
    You’d probably lose the extra salary to overpriced and subpar health insurance, education, housing, and retirement.
    - titanomachy 7y ago
      Nope. I made the move and put away 2x my entire Canadian salary in savings each year.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Not really, no. It depends on your situation. If you're fairly young, single, healthy, and have no kids, and can live cheaply, that difference in salary will quickly amount to a lot of savings. Basically, the US is a good place to make a lot of money, esp. in the tech sector, as long as you avoid spending like a drunken sailor or getting married and having kids. Health insurance is expensive, but the much higher salaries much more than make up for that (but maybe not so much if you're supporting a wife and 3 kids). Education isn't an issue, or shouldn't be: the scenario we're talking about here is someone who's already out of college. (But here again, having kids will ruin the advantage, if you're paying for them to go to college.) Housing is overpriced in the US, yes, but it is in Canada too. If you think anyplace outside the Bay Area is bad, try looking at housing prices in Vancouver BC. As for retirement, there's a reason so many US citizens become expats when they retire and move to places like Costa Rica. Where the US really falls down is if you need a social safety net, if you have health issues (which can result in medical bankruptcy in the US), if you want to retire and not eat cat food, if you want to go to college without being saddled with enormous debt, etc. But if you have tech skills and can snag a high-paying tech job in the US, you'll probably save a lot more money for that time. But you should have an exit plan. A lot of people from places like India come here and work and live for many years, saving up a lot of money, and then go back home and live like kings.
  - lopmotr 7y ago
    Before you write off 50 million people as "seriously disturbed", you should find out their motives. Not the cherry-picked mockery of them you see on social media, but their more common motives. To make such a crude judgement as you did, you have to be ignoring some huge factor. If you conclude that factor is "they're stupid" or "they're evil", then you haven't found it. This applies generally to many controversial ideas. Being unable to see it from any other point of view doesn't make you right.
    - aeyes 7y ago
      If you know their motives, would you please be kind enough to share them with us? As an outsider it is kind of hard to see through superficial news posts.
      - Causality1 7y ago
        As a Democrat-voting libertarian with very Republican family, I think Jonathan Pie encapsulated it perfectly just a few days after the election: https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs The truly sad part is that the Democratic party seemingly hasn't learned anything in the last four years, and are well on their way to dooming us to another four years of Trump.
        D_Alex 7y ago
        So the key to beating Trump is apparently engaging in discussion with Trump supporters to find out what they really care about. And right here, in this thread, we are playing "guess my motive".
        surge 7y ago
        Jimmy Dore, Tim Pool, and hundreds of others on the left have explained so well what was happening and is still happening. People who talk to people, not people who sit in high rises offices in major expensive cities and listen to themselves on Twitter all day which is a fraction, of a fraction of the population (majority of people don't even have time to tweet or care if they did, the loudest voices there are not representative of political thought for the majority of Americans). DNC has doubled down and moved further in the direction that lost them the last one. People have missed that Republicans have moved left or more center cause of Trump, gay marriage is something Trump doesn't care about at worst and supports at best, same thing on marijuana legalization. People who voted for Obama voted for Trump, the Christian right vote for Trump or don't vote at all because who else are they going to vote for. In my state, NAFTA fucked over a lot of people, people working factory jobs are now working two jobs, Clinton's brought that into reality, and she still advocated for that and other trade deals like TPP. Bernie might have had a chance then, because he stood against it, he's since said things like "white people don't know what its like to be poor", turning it into a race issue instead of a class issue, stopped talking about worker rights, he sure doesn't now, even without the DNC's help, people watched how the DNC played Bernie and rigged things against him, changed the rules and sacrificed their morals to let billionaire in and keep saying anyone they don't like, even on their own side, is a Russian asset, they know they're just as dishonest. They see rich white people at the top of the DNC, the people the DNC says we're supposed to hate, and recognize the sheer hypocrisy of it all. In the last 4 years they've sinked to Trump's level, and got down in the mud with him.
  - surge 7y ago
    You do realize she was jailed and charged under Obama right? This was the President that was supposed to shine a light on corruption and protect whistleblowers when they first campaigned. The joke here is you think there's that much of a difference. One acts bad and does bad things, the other acts good and does bad things. The only difference is the media loved the last one and hates the new one.
    - agf 7y ago
      Certainly the previous comment was conflating things that happened in the past with what's happening how. I was sometimes disappointed with the reality of the Obama presidency, like may others. But this comment is just ridiculous. From the policies, to the personal conduct, to their respect or lack thereof for the rule of law, the two administrations and the actions of the two in and out of office are wildly different.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        The fact remains that millions of people are screaming holy hell about things "Trump does" that they were silent about 4 years ago when Obama did them.
        adamsea 7y ago
        Some people screamed about it. And, for better or worse, right and wrong are not measured by the number of people screaming about something :).
        LessDmesg 7y ago
        Yet millions of people love what Trump does. And the celebrities that pledged to leave USA if he got elected somehow didn't follow on their promises. The real problem is that the country is polarized now, and neither side will accept the result of election - any result. And who is responsible for this polarization? Democrats and their affiliated media are. They are the ones who couldn't respect Trump's presidency and preferred to destroy the social fabric to get the power back.
      - 7y ago
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Canada is like the US but lite. Ontario's government just replac car license number plates with blocks of color of the party in power, led by the brother of the former Toronto mayor who smoked crack with gang members, on video, while he was mayor. https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/provincial/madd-canada-wants-ontario-to-probe-licence-plate-complaints/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/provincial/...
    - sigmaprimus 7y ago
      Canada is like the US because most of the media consumed by its population is US content. Canada is like the US because the Canadian enconomy is so intertwined with the US when the Dow Jones drops 10% in a day Canadians hurt too. Canada is like the US because Wuhan Fever is killing their citizens too. Canada is different from the US because if one of their citizens gets sick regardless of having insurance they will get the same treatment as a billionaire will, and if they get sick first they will get treated before the billionaire. Canada is different from the US because if a Canadian billionaire gets sick they will just go to the US, pay the money and get treated before any US citizen does. Canada is different from the US because even though the Prime minister wore blackface, as far as I know he never grabbed any women by the P000sy!
      - krapp 7y ago
        >Canada is different from the US because even though the Prime minister wore blackface, as far as I know he never grabbed any women by the P000sy! If you're talking about Trudeau, it took me literal seconds on Google to find the sexual harassment allegations against him.
        sigmaprimus 7y ago
        Isn't that sad, I bet I could name any Male leader of any country and it would be just as easy to google and find allegations. Trump was on a hot mic, it's not a "he said she said" in his case, it just a "he said". Don't get me wrong I think Trump did exactly what he promised to do, I was just pointing out the differences between the US and Canada. ;) BTW there has been a few US Mayors that got caught smoking crack in the past too! Which is also very sad.
  - whowhatwhy 7y ago
    imagine making up a story like this to virtue signal how much you hate trump, meanwhile she is imprisoned under obama doj and released under trump doj
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    There might be some sampling bias there. It's easy to be a country with few war criminals when you have a relatively lackadaisical approach to prosecuting war crimes. If you just revoke their visa and send them somewhere else, it becomes another country's problem.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into political or nationalistic flamewars. They are predictable, tedious, and destructive of the curiosity we want here. The one you've fed in this case is particularly bad and particularly dumb, and to the extent that such crap shows up here, we might as well shut this place down. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this three times already. Not cool, so please stop.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. You took what was already a wretched flamewar and squared it. Seriously not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
onenine 7y ago
She was granted immunity for testimony. Had she testified, instead of willfully ignoring the court, she would not have been held in contempt.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Hadn’t she already given testimony on the subject in question? If I recall she refused to testify a second time because she had already done so.
  - onenine 7y ago
    My understanding is that she did not, though this gets way into the weeds of the military trial. I can try to dig this up if you're interested (been a couple years since I read about that particular facet). She claimed a lot of legally nonsensical things on stand so I'm not sure any of it passed any scrutiny. It certainly didn't with the judge. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/chelsea-manning-faces-contempt-hearing-after-refusing-to-answer-grand-jury-questions/2019/03/07/cc170bac-4101-11e9-922c-64d6b7840b82_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/chelsea-m...
  - function_seven 7y ago
    I don't see how that's relevant. Either she repeats the testimony she gave the first time around, or new questions are asked of her as a witness that weren't covered during the first testimony. Either way, with immunity granted, there's no Fifth Amendment peril there.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
dang 7y ago
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments, and in particular not name-calling fulmination, to Hacker News. We're trying for something different than that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The fines against Manning have been commented on repeatedly and extensively in this very thread. The only thing your comment adds is rage, which we have already have a surplus of, even if it's all justified. The wretched flamewar your comment set off was predictable and a perfect example of what this site is not supposed to be for. No more of this, please, regardless of how you feel about justice departments. All: upvoting this kind of comment—the kind that obviously and egregiously flouts the site rules—is the kind of thing that eventually gets your votes dropped on Hacker News.
- LessDmesg 7y ago
  Flamewars are fun, you're not. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings.
  - dang 7y ago
    Sure, but this site is organized around the emotion of curiosity, which flamewars trample.

westmeal 7y ago

Land of the free, home of the brave.

adammunich 7y ago
Home for the brave, lately
lostgame 7y ago
Especially given its current leadership, I often turn away jobs of more than two times my salary - in USD (I live in Canada) - to avoid living in America. That Trump ever got elected - or was ever seriously considered as a candidate - tells me that enough of the the population is seriously disturbed that I’d like nothing to do with it. And then there’s the war atrocities...
- pentae 7y ago
  This says more about you than 'enough of the population being seriously disturbed'
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative another comment is or you feel it is. It helps nothing, only makes this place even worse, and is what the guidelines explicitly ask you not to do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ramphastidae 7y ago
  You’d probably lose the extra salary to overpriced and subpar health insurance, education, housing, and retirement.
  - titanomachy 7y ago
    Nope. I made the move and put away 2x my entire Canadian salary in savings each year.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Not really, no. It depends on your situation. If you're fairly young, single, healthy, and have no kids, and can live cheaply, that difference in salary will quickly amount to a lot of savings. Basically, the US is a good place to make a lot of money, esp. in the tech sector, as long as you avoid spending like a drunken sailor or getting married and having kids. Health insurance is expensive, but the much higher salaries much more than make up for that (but maybe not so much if you're supporting a wife and 3 kids). Education isn't an issue, or shouldn't be: the scenario we're talking about here is someone who's already out of college. (But here again, having kids will ruin the advantage, if you're paying for them to go to college.) Housing is overpriced in the US, yes, but it is in Canada too. If you think anyplace outside the Bay Area is bad, try looking at housing prices in Vancouver BC. As for retirement, there's a reason so many US citizens become expats when they retire and move to places like Costa Rica. Where the US really falls down is if you need a social safety net, if you have health issues (which can result in medical bankruptcy in the US), if you want to retire and not eat cat food, if you want to go to college without being saddled with enormous debt, etc. But if you have tech skills and can snag a high-paying tech job in the US, you'll probably save a lot more money for that time. But you should have an exit plan. A lot of people from places like India come here and work and live for many years, saving up a lot of money, and then go back home and live like kings.
- lopmotr 7y ago
  Before you write off 50 million people as "seriously disturbed", you should find out their motives. Not the cherry-picked mockery of them you see on social media, but their more common motives. To make such a crude judgement as you did, you have to be ignoring some huge factor. If you conclude that factor is "they're stupid" or "they're evil", then you haven't found it. This applies generally to many controversial ideas. Being unable to see it from any other point of view doesn't make you right.
  - aeyes 7y ago
    If you know their motives, would you please be kind enough to share them with us? As an outsider it is kind of hard to see through superficial news posts.
    - Causality1 7y ago
      As a Democrat-voting libertarian with very Republican family, I think Jonathan Pie encapsulated it perfectly just a few days after the election: https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs The truly sad part is that the Democratic party seemingly hasn't learned anything in the last four years, and are well on their way to dooming us to another four years of Trump.
      - D_Alex 7y ago
        So the key to beating Trump is apparently engaging in discussion with Trump supporters to find out what they really care about. And right here, in this thread, we are playing "guess my motive".
      - surge 7y ago
        Jimmy Dore, Tim Pool, and hundreds of others on the left have explained so well what was happening and is still happening. People who talk to people, not people who sit in high rises offices in major expensive cities and listen to themselves on Twitter all day which is a fraction, of a fraction of the population (majority of people don't even have time to tweet or care if they did, the loudest voices there are not representative of political thought for the majority of Americans). DNC has doubled down and moved further in the direction that lost them the last one. People have missed that Republicans have moved left or more center cause of Trump, gay marriage is something Trump doesn't care about at worst and supports at best, same thing on marijuana legalization. People who voted for Obama voted for Trump, the Christian right vote for Trump or don't vote at all because who else are they going to vote for. In my state, NAFTA fucked over a lot of people, people working factory jobs are now working two jobs, Clinton's brought that into reality, and she still advocated for that and other trade deals like TPP. Bernie might have had a chance then, because he stood against it, he's since said things like "white people don't know what its like to be poor", turning it into a race issue instead of a class issue, stopped talking about worker rights, he sure doesn't now, even without the DNC's help, people watched how the DNC played Bernie and rigged things against him, changed the rules and sacrificed their morals to let billionaire in and keep saying anyone they don't like, even on their own side, is a Russian asset, they know they're just as dishonest. They see rich white people at the top of the DNC, the people the DNC says we're supposed to hate, and recognize the sheer hypocrisy of it all. In the last 4 years they've sinked to Trump's level, and got down in the mud with him.
- surge 7y ago
  You do realize she was jailed and charged under Obama right? This was the President that was supposed to shine a light on corruption and protect whistleblowers when they first campaigned. The joke here is you think there's that much of a difference. One acts bad and does bad things, the other acts good and does bad things. The only difference is the media loved the last one and hates the new one.
  - agf 7y ago
    Certainly the previous comment was conflating things that happened in the past with what's happening how. I was sometimes disappointed with the reality of the Obama presidency, like may others. But this comment is just ridiculous. From the policies, to the personal conduct, to their respect or lack thereof for the rule of law, the two administrations and the actions of the two in and out of office are wildly different.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      The fact remains that millions of people are screaming holy hell about things "Trump does" that they were silent about 4 years ago when Obama did them.
      - adamsea 7y ago
        Some people screamed about it. And, for better or worse, right and wrong are not measured by the number of people screaming about something :).
      - LessDmesg 7y ago
        Yet millions of people love what Trump does. And the celebrities that pledged to leave USA if he got elected somehow didn't follow on their promises. The real problem is that the country is polarized now, and neither side will accept the result of election - any result. And who is responsible for this polarization? Democrats and their affiliated media are. They are the ones who couldn't respect Trump's presidency and preferred to destroy the social fabric to get the power back.
    - 7y ago
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Canada is like the US but lite. Ontario's government just replac car license number plates with blocks of color of the party in power, led by the brother of the former Toronto mayor who smoked crack with gang members, on video, while he was mayor. https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/provincial/madd-canada-wants-ontario-to-probe-licence-plate-complaints/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/provincial/...
  - sigmaprimus 7y ago
    Canada is like the US because most of the media consumed by its population is US content. Canada is like the US because the Canadian enconomy is so intertwined with the US when the Dow Jones drops 10% in a day Canadians hurt too. Canada is like the US because Wuhan Fever is killing their citizens too. Canada is different from the US because if one of their citizens gets sick regardless of having insurance they will get the same treatment as a billionaire will, and if they get sick first they will get treated before the billionaire. Canada is different from the US because if a Canadian billionaire gets sick they will just go to the US, pay the money and get treated before any US citizen does. Canada is different from the US because even though the Prime minister wore blackface, as far as I know he never grabbed any women by the P000sy!
    - krapp 7y ago
      >Canada is different from the US because even though the Prime minister wore blackface, as far as I know he never grabbed any women by the P000sy! If you're talking about Trudeau, it took me literal seconds on Google to find the sexual harassment allegations against him.
      - sigmaprimus 7y ago
        Isn't that sad, I bet I could name any Male leader of any country and it would be just as easy to google and find allegations. Trump was on a hot mic, it's not a "he said she said" in his case, it just a "he said". Don't get me wrong I think Trump did exactly what he promised to do, I was just pointing out the differences between the US and Canada. ;) BTW there has been a few US Mayors that got caught smoking crack in the past too! Which is also very sad.
- whowhatwhy 7y ago
  imagine making up a story like this to virtue signal how much you hate trump, meanwhile she is imprisoned under obama doj and released under trump doj
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  There might be some sampling bias there. It's easy to be a country with few war criminals when you have a relatively lackadaisical approach to prosecuting war crimes. If you just revoke their visa and send them somewhere else, it becomes another country's problem.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into political or nationalistic flamewars. They are predictable, tedious, and destructive of the curiosity we want here. The one you've fed in this case is particularly bad and particularly dumb, and to the extent that such crap shows up here, we might as well shut this place down. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you this three times already. Not cool, so please stop.
dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. You took what was already a wretched flamewar and squared it. Seriously not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

onenine 7y ago

She was granted immunity for testimony. Had she testified, instead of willfully ignoring the court, she would not have been held in contempt.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago
Hadn’t she already given testimony on the subject in question? If I recall she refused to testify a second time because she had already done so.
- onenine 7y ago
  My understanding is that she did not, though this gets way into the weeds of the military trial. I can try to dig this up if you're interested (been a couple years since I read about that particular facet). She claimed a lot of legally nonsensical things on stand so I'm not sure any of it passed any scrutiny. It certainly didn't with the judge. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/chelsea-manning-faces-contempt-hearing-after-refusing-to-answer-grand-jury-questions/2019/03/07/cc170bac-4101-11e9-922c-64d6b7840b82_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/chelsea-m...
- function_seven 7y ago
  I don't see how that's relevant. Either she repeats the testimony she gave the first time around, or new questions are asked of her as a witness that weren't covered during the first testimony. Either way, with immunity granted, there's no Fifth Amendment peril there.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

dang 7y ago

Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments, and in particular not name-calling fulmination, to Hacker News. We're trying for something different than that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The fines against Manning have been commented on repeatedly and extensively in this very thread. The only thing your comment adds is rage, which we have already have a surplus of, even if it's all justified. The wretched flamewar your comment set off was predictable and a perfect example of what this site is not supposed to be for. No more of this, please, regardless of how you feel about justice departments. All: upvoting this kind of comment—the kind that obviously and egregiously flouts the site rules—is the kind of thing that eventually gets your votes dropped on Hacker News.

LessDmesg 7y ago
Flamewars are fun, you're not. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings.
- dang 7y ago
  Sure, but this site is organized around the emotion of curiosity, which flamewars trample.