11 ms·

How a 'growth mindset' can lead to success

281 points by adrian_mrd 7y ago

ASalazarMX 7y ago
> Or Donald Trump: “Without passion, you don’t have energy. Without energy, you have nothing.” He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is passionate about his job.
- dang 7y ago
  Let's not have political flamebait here please. That leads away from intellectually curious conversation, which is what we want on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - crispinb 7y ago
    Given that the 45 quote came directly from the article in question, this strikes me as a tad unreasonable in this case. At the very least, the 45 reference could quite reasonably lead to interrogation of the article author's superficial concept of 'success' (regardless of one's politics).
    - OJFord 7y ago
      I think commenting on a politician's character or personality is 'political flamebait' whatever quote from the article it's placed under.
      - crispinb 7y ago
        Even if it's a response to that politician's own statement specifically commenting on questions of character? I really can't agree - distinguishing between 'political flamebait' and 'reflexively tugging the forelock to those in authority' clearly requires judgement, but the line isn't quite that fine.
      - wpietri 7y ago
        That could be true. But refusing to allow negative points, however accurate, about powerful people is a very strong political action.
    - dang 7y ago
      On the internet, alas, "could quite reasonably" translates to "probably won't". It's similar to Jerry Weinberg's point about the s-word ("should") translating to "isn't". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22537631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22537631
      - crispinb 7y ago
        Sure, but there's a risk of self-fulfilling prophecy if we're on too much of a hair trigger. In this case it wasn't as if the comment was either unrelated to the submission, or particularly inflammatory. A matter of judgement, of course. Probably enough said on that.
        dang 7y ago
        The psychology of Donald Trump is no small trigger.
trimble_tromble 7y ago
It's important to note that mindset theory has recently come under question: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797619897588?journalCode=pssa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761989758... For a twitter summary of the above paper, see here: https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/1224716904574545920 https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/12247169045745459...
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  It came under question several years ago, too. As far as I can tell, Carol Dweck's response was basically to no-true-Scotsman any failures as being based on "false growth mindset" [1]. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/12/how-praise-became-a-consolation-prize/510845/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/12/how-pr...
  - adamisom 7y ago
    I think if I had a theory that became popularized, I, too, would have legitimate concern that people were using that theory imprecisely—-ie incorrectly. Ive noticed that as ideas get popularized they get watered down or misapplied. Think Agile.
    - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
      Sure, but the problem I have with Dweck's response is that it seems to be muddying the water rather than adding precision. In particular, she says: > Everyone is a mixture of fixed and growth mindsets. You could have a predominant growth mindset in an area but there can still be things that trigger you into a fixed mindset trait. I have no problem with this concept per se; as far as it goes, it seems eminently more realistic than most descriptions I've seen of mindset theory (which seem to treat it like what therapists sometimes call a "core belief"). But if mindset is significantly contingent on immediate circumstances, what are we saying when we say that someone "has" a fixed or growth mindset? Are the instruments used in the studies capturing any of this variation? If not, what needs to be done to ensure that studies are properly taking this into account?
BooneJS 7y ago
One thing I admire about my most successful coworkers is their lack of fear when diving headfirst into something new. "Hey, we've got this problem, can you take a look?" And they say sure. They will research, then code, then hit a roadblock and pick a new direction, and repeat. They assume they can get past whatever roadblocks they have, and they're always correct. Other people will research until they think they've got a plan to get around every bit of friction they'll encounter. The longer you take to get started, the longer achieving a workable solution will take.
- crispinb 7y ago
  and they're always correct Survivorship bias. For every fearless, boots'n'all person I know in a variety of fields (not just dev) who's "succeeded", I know many more whose headlong attempts crashed and burned. Consequences ranged from merely becoming more cautious, to homelessness and suicide.
  - analog31 7y ago
    It could also be because our perception of risk is biased. What I mean is, we think they are being fearless, when in reality, they just have a more accurate perception of the actual risk than we do -- possibly because they are choosing their battles carefully.
  - LouisContant 7y ago
    I would think OP is talking about tasks at work that they're not familiar with and less talking starting a business which is how I think you interpreted it.
  - imgabe 7y ago
    What the "survivorship bias" dismissal of things like this always neglects is that something can be a necessary, but not sufficient condition for success. Ok, some people who dive in and try things don't succeed. But do any people who don't dive in and try things succeed? Yeah, if you try you might still fail. Most intelligent people realize this is a possibility. If you don't try you will definitely fail though.
benrawk 7y ago
Most of the growth mindset literature hasn’t replicated...
- volume 7y ago
  ...that sounds like fixed mindset about growth mindset! Or maybe a better reply is: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-using-science-to-validate-your-beliefs/#2f7f18896f27 https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-usi...
msla 7y ago
I made an attempt to find an actual definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset > According to Carol Dweck,[11] individuals can be placed on a continuum according to their implicit views of "where ability comes from". > Dweck states that there are two categories (growth mindset versus fixed mindset) that can group individuals based on their behaviour, specifically their reaction to failure. Those with a "fixed mindset" believe that abilities are mostly innate and interpret failure as the lack of necessary basic abilities, while those with a "growth mindset" believe that they can acquire any given ability provided they invest effort or study. In particular, an individual's mindset impacts how they face and cope with challenges, such as the transition into junior high school from elementary school or losing your job.[11] According to Dweck, individuals with a "growth" theory are more likely to continue working hard despite setbacks. I have some poison I'd like to administer: You think this is great, but I find it sinister. It's a wonderful way to blame failure on the person, for if they were growers they'd win no matter what they had to work from. Are some people worse, or simply worse-off? "Use the growth mindset!" the growers can scoff! "There's nothing you can't achieve in the end!" and if you don't, well, they can just condescend. It's impossible to win against such philosophy; it allows them to ignore serious issues, and just fail to see a jammed-up or scammy underlying system, in which you can't rise and must always get pissed on. But enough of my cynical snarling. I'm sure my growth mindset will let me be the first 36-year-old NCAA champion. You know, unless coronavirus destroys it utterly.
- nefitty 7y ago
  Well, if a person doesn't see any possible path toward some destination, then they will probably not even try. If I see a path toward the destination, but it will take me a million years of walking, then that's not a fault of mindset theory. It doesn't promise that I'll be able to muster the million mile walk, it just promises that if I look closely enough, I might be able to make out the path there. I am somewhat skeptical of mindset theory but intuitively, it makes sense and tracks with how I expect a human mind to react to difficult projects.
  - harimau777 7y ago
    For sake of argument, if it doesn't promise that a growth mindset will allow you to succeed, then what good is it? How is it different than blind faith?
johnminter 7y ago
My take from the article is that one needs sufficient confidence and persistence to set a goal, a plan to achieve it, and the self-discipline to do the work to achieve it. Self directed learners have a better possibility to do this, especially if they have mentors to help them to get over the hard spots. Of course, one wants to "pay forward" this type of help.
- annoyingnoob 7y ago
  I agree its about self-confidence, also desire to achieve a goal. Confidence and desire, the rest follows naturally.
wwarner 7y ago
I read Carol Dweck's book [0] on the recommendation of Satya Nadella. I learned to look at a few of my recent conflicts with others in a new way, and I would recommend the book as well. [0] https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG
currymj 7y ago
growth mindset: drinking is just a particular behavior, it's totally within my control, and all i have to do is learn how to make the choice not to drink irresponsibly. fixed mindset: i'm an alcoholic, i'll always be an alcoholic, it's beyond my power to change that fact, so all I can do is try to let some other power help me to stop drinking. the recent meta-analysis offering some limited support for AA got me thinking about this -- it's an interesting case where for a lot of people, a fixed mindset is what they need to make a positive change. i think there probably are many situations like this, where accepting something as a fixed trait actually helps you deal with it better.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  I’d put beating a chemical dependency in a different category than starting a new hobby.
- jotm 7y ago
  Not the best example due to the physical addiction factor, but overall you're right. Just knowing/believing that things can change/be different is enough of a push for one to actually try and make the change.
xiaodai 7y ago
How flogging the "growth mindset" concept can sell more books and earn the author more commissions.
manmal 7y ago
I’ve met a lot of people (and got to know them intensely) who seem to not allow themselves to learn new things in specific areas (or maybe a lot of areas), while being proactive in others. Looking at myself, I had a hard time learning and maintaining interest about building physical things, or doing home improvement (all things where I need a hardware shop from). My theory is that active discouragement during childhood is a driving factor here. My father often yelled at me if I broke something physical, or asked „stupid“ questions while building an RC car together. He also wanted to do all the home improvement stuff alone, and never actively explained anything to me there. So for me, home improvement equals discouragement, resulting in a feeling of I-can‘t-do-that. (This kind of thing seems to be passed on - my father‘s father also shouted at him when doing something wrong). On the flipside, my father at some point bought a PC and let me play with it, and seemed to not have any concerns whatsoever about that. He got some floppy disk games for me, installed the office suite, and let me have at it, sometimes grunting encouragement. Now guess what my favorite activity is, and what I built my career around - home improvement, or computers?
- mister_hn 7y ago
  Are you me? I've had the same experience and guess what I do for a job? But I've never realised that actually that behaviour of negating activities to the young myself was influencing so bad my actual self. Thanks for sharing it
- albran 7y ago
  Anecdotal: I had a similar experience as a child with my step-parent, who was quite the handyman but would meet my interest in wanting to help out with such tasks by dismissing me. I quickly formed an opinion about myself as not being interested or capable with such tasks. Interestingly, many years later when I moved to a new country and fell into a job that required janitorial skills, the forced learning revealed my interest, enjoyment and capability. I now actively bust out the toolbox at the first indication of a leak, squeak or rattle...
- dazzawazza 7y ago
  I would suggest that you learn from this that your father wanted to do some things alone and that he didn't HAVE to teach you anything he didn't want to. He is an autonomous individual with his own drives and needs as are you, parents are not slaves to your desires. You should also stop using this as an excuse. My father did the same to me but I still learned to build both software and DIY-type-things. We are shaped by my own decisions.
known 7y ago
"I was an ordinary person who studied hard. There's no miracle people!" --Feynman
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Yet he often talked about the huge influence his farther had on him. In particular in encouraging him to question the world around him.
  - vaylian 7y ago
    True. But I think he said this mainly to stop other people from believing that one is born as a genius.
AtOmXpLuS 7y ago
Everything in AtOmXpLuS.CoM
timwaagh 7y ago
I think it's not a great article. I mean 'improving your passion'? Really? Yeah collecting garbage currently sucks but in ten years time I expect to look forward to collecting everyday.
diablo1 7y ago
There is a misconception that passion is a singular positive emotion. Remember that sometimes passion can derail you, make you mad and angry. It involves more than one emotion. By all means, find your passion, but don't turn it into an obsession that can derail you.
known 7y ago
If we really care about social mobility, it is on the economy that we should focus most of our attention http://archive.vn/YJx0E http://archive.vn/YJx0E
mrpickels 7y ago
I'm growing cucumbers in my garden, I am successful!

281 points by adrian_mrd 7y ago

> Or Donald Trump: “Without passion, you don’t have energy. Without energy, you have nothing.” He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is passionate about his job.

dang 7y ago
Let's not have political flamebait here please. That leads away from intellectually curious conversation, which is what we want on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- crispinb 7y ago
  Given that the 45 quote came directly from the article in question, this strikes me as a tad unreasonable in this case. At the very least, the 45 reference could quite reasonably lead to interrogation of the article author's superficial concept of 'success' (regardless of one's politics).
  - OJFord 7y ago
    I think commenting on a politician's character or personality is 'political flamebait' whatever quote from the article it's placed under.
    - crispinb 7y ago
      Even if it's a response to that politician's own statement specifically commenting on questions of character? I really can't agree - distinguishing between 'political flamebait' and 'reflexively tugging the forelock to those in authority' clearly requires judgement, but the line isn't quite that fine.
    - wpietri 7y ago
      That could be true. But refusing to allow negative points, however accurate, about powerful people is a very strong political action.
  - dang 7y ago
    On the internet, alas, "could quite reasonably" translates to "probably won't". It's similar to Jerry Weinberg's point about the s-word ("should") translating to "isn't". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22537631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22537631
    - crispinb 7y ago
      Sure, but there's a risk of self-fulfilling prophecy if we're on too much of a hair trigger. In this case it wasn't as if the comment was either unrelated to the submission, or particularly inflammatory. A matter of judgement, of course. Probably enough said on that.
      - dang 7y ago
        The psychology of Donald Trump is no small trigger.

trimble_tromble 7y ago

It's important to note that mindset theory has recently come under question: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797619897588?journalCode=pssa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761989758... For a twitter summary of the above paper, see here: https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/1224716904574545920 https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/12247169045745459...

0xcde4c3db 7y ago
It came under question several years ago, too. As far as I can tell, Carol Dweck's response was basically to no-true-Scotsman any failures as being based on "false growth mindset" [1]. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/12/how-praise-became-a-consolation-prize/510845/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/12/how-pr...
- adamisom 7y ago
  I think if I had a theory that became popularized, I, too, would have legitimate concern that people were using that theory imprecisely—-ie incorrectly. Ive noticed that as ideas get popularized they get watered down or misapplied. Think Agile.
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    Sure, but the problem I have with Dweck's response is that it seems to be muddying the water rather than adding precision. In particular, she says: > Everyone is a mixture of fixed and growth mindsets. You could have a predominant growth mindset in an area but there can still be things that trigger you into a fixed mindset trait. I have no problem with this concept per se; as far as it goes, it seems eminently more realistic than most descriptions I've seen of mindset theory (which seem to treat it like what therapists sometimes call a "core belief"). But if mindset is significantly contingent on immediate circumstances, what are we saying when we say that someone "has" a fixed or growth mindset? Are the instruments used in the studies capturing any of this variation? If not, what needs to be done to ensure that studies are properly taking this into account?

BooneJS 7y ago

One thing I admire about my most successful coworkers is their lack of fear when diving headfirst into something new. "Hey, we've got this problem, can you take a look?" And they say sure. They will research, then code, then hit a roadblock and pick a new direction, and repeat. They assume they can get past whatever roadblocks they have, and they're always correct. Other people will research until they think they've got a plan to get around every bit of friction they'll encounter. The longer you take to get started, the longer achieving a workable solution will take.

crispinb 7y ago
and they're always correct Survivorship bias. For every fearless, boots'n'all person I know in a variety of fields (not just dev) who's "succeeded", I know many more whose headlong attempts crashed and burned. Consequences ranged from merely becoming more cautious, to homelessness and suicide.
- analog31 7y ago
  It could also be because our perception of risk is biased. What I mean is, we think they are being fearless, when in reality, they just have a more accurate perception of the actual risk than we do -- possibly because they are choosing their battles carefully.
- LouisContant 7y ago
  I would think OP is talking about tasks at work that they're not familiar with and less talking starting a business which is how I think you interpreted it.
- imgabe 7y ago
  What the "survivorship bias" dismissal of things like this always neglects is that something can be a necessary, but not sufficient condition for success. Ok, some people who dive in and try things don't succeed. But do any people who don't dive in and try things succeed? Yeah, if you try you might still fail. Most intelligent people realize this is a possibility. If you don't try you will definitely fail though.

benrawk 7y ago

Most of the growth mindset literature hasn’t replicated...

volume 7y ago
...that sounds like fixed mindset about growth mindset! Or maybe a better reply is: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-using-science-to-validate-your-beliefs/#2f7f18896f27 https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-usi...

msla 7y ago

I made an attempt to find an actual definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset > According to Carol Dweck,[11] individuals can be placed on a continuum according to their implicit views of "where ability comes from". > Dweck states that there are two categories (growth mindset versus fixed mindset) that can group individuals based on their behaviour, specifically their reaction to failure. Those with a "fixed mindset" believe that abilities are mostly innate and interpret failure as the lack of necessary basic abilities, while those with a "growth mindset" believe that they can acquire any given ability provided they invest effort or study. In particular, an individual's mindset impacts how they face and cope with challenges, such as the transition into junior high school from elementary school or losing your job.[11] According to Dweck, individuals with a "growth" theory are more likely to continue working hard despite setbacks. I have some poison I'd like to administer: You think this is great, but I find it sinister. It's a wonderful way to blame failure on the person, for if they were growers they'd win no matter what they had to work from. Are some people worse, or simply worse-off? "Use the growth mindset!" the growers can scoff! "There's nothing you can't achieve in the end!" and if you don't, well, they can just condescend. It's impossible to win against such philosophy; it allows them to ignore serious issues, and just fail to see a jammed-up or scammy underlying system, in which you can't rise and must always get pissed on. But enough of my cynical snarling. I'm sure my growth mindset will let me be the first 36-year-old NCAA champion. You know, unless coronavirus destroys it utterly.

nefitty 7y ago
Well, if a person doesn't see any possible path toward some destination, then they will probably not even try. If I see a path toward the destination, but it will take me a million years of walking, then that's not a fault of mindset theory. It doesn't promise that I'll be able to muster the million mile walk, it just promises that if I look closely enough, I might be able to make out the path there. I am somewhat skeptical of mindset theory but intuitively, it makes sense and tracks with how I expect a human mind to react to difficult projects.
- harimau777 7y ago
  For sake of argument, if it doesn't promise that a growth mindset will allow you to succeed, then what good is it? How is it different than blind faith?

johnminter 7y ago

My take from the article is that one needs sufficient confidence and persistence to set a goal, a plan to achieve it, and the self-discipline to do the work to achieve it. Self directed learners have a better possibility to do this, especially if they have mentors to help them to get over the hard spots. Of course, one wants to "pay forward" this type of help.

annoyingnoob 7y ago
I agree its about self-confidence, also desire to achieve a goal. Confidence and desire, the rest follows naturally.

wwarner 7y ago

I read Carol Dweck's book [0] on the recommendation of Satya Nadella. I learned to look at a few of my recent conflicts with others in a new way, and I would recommend the book as well. [0] https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG

currymj 7y ago

growth mindset: drinking is just a particular behavior, it's totally within my control, and all i have to do is learn how to make the choice not to drink irresponsibly. fixed mindset: i'm an alcoholic, i'll always be an alcoholic, it's beyond my power to change that fact, so all I can do is try to let some other power help me to stop drinking. the recent meta-analysis offering some limited support for AA got me thinking about this -- it's an interesting case where for a lot of people, a fixed mindset is what they need to make a positive change. i think there probably are many situations like this, where accepting something as a fixed trait actually helps you deal with it better.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
I’d put beating a chemical dependency in a different category than starting a new hobby.
jotm 7y ago
Not the best example due to the physical addiction factor, but overall you're right. Just knowing/believing that things can change/be different is enough of a push for one to actually try and make the change.

xiaodai 7y ago

How flogging the "growth mindset" concept can sell more books and earn the author more commissions.

manmal 7y ago

I’ve met a lot of people (and got to know them intensely) who seem to not allow themselves to learn new things in specific areas (or maybe a lot of areas), while being proactive in others. Looking at myself, I had a hard time learning and maintaining interest about building physical things, or doing home improvement (all things where I need a hardware shop from). My theory is that active discouragement during childhood is a driving factor here. My father often yelled at me if I broke something physical, or asked „stupid“ questions while building an RC car together. He also wanted to do all the home improvement stuff alone, and never actively explained anything to me there. So for me, home improvement equals discouragement, resulting in a feeling of I-can‘t-do-that. (This kind of thing seems to be passed on - my father‘s father also shouted at him when doing something wrong). On the flipside, my father at some point bought a PC and let me play with it, and seemed to not have any concerns whatsoever about that. He got some floppy disk games for me, installed the office suite, and let me have at it, sometimes grunting encouragement. Now guess what my favorite activity is, and what I built my career around - home improvement, or computers?

mister_hn 7y ago
Are you me? I've had the same experience and guess what I do for a job? But I've never realised that actually that behaviour of negating activities to the young myself was influencing so bad my actual self. Thanks for sharing it
albran 7y ago
Anecdotal: I had a similar experience as a child with my step-parent, who was quite the handyman but would meet my interest in wanting to help out with such tasks by dismissing me. I quickly formed an opinion about myself as not being interested or capable with such tasks. Interestingly, many years later when I moved to a new country and fell into a job that required janitorial skills, the forced learning revealed my interest, enjoyment and capability. I now actively bust out the toolbox at the first indication of a leak, squeak or rattle...
dazzawazza 7y ago
I would suggest that you learn from this that your father wanted to do some things alone and that he didn't HAVE to teach you anything he didn't want to. He is an autonomous individual with his own drives and needs as are you, parents are not slaves to your desires. You should also stop using this as an excuse. My father did the same to me but I still learned to build both software and DIY-type-things. We are shaped by my own decisions.

known 7y ago

"I was an ordinary person who studied hard. There's no miracle people!" --Feynman

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Yet he often talked about the huge influence his farther had on him. In particular in encouraging him to question the world around him.
- vaylian 7y ago
  True. But I think he said this mainly to stop other people from believing that one is born as a genius.

AtOmXpLuS 7y ago

Everything in AtOmXpLuS.CoM

timwaagh 7y ago

I think it's not a great article. I mean 'improving your passion'? Really? Yeah collecting garbage currently sucks but in ten years time I expect to look forward to collecting everyday.

diablo1 7y ago

There is a misconception that passion is a singular positive emotion. Remember that sometimes passion can derail you, make you mad and angry. It involves more than one emotion. By all means, find your passion, but don't turn it into an obsession that can derail you.

known 7y ago

If we really care about social mobility, it is on the economy that we should focus most of our attention http://archive.vn/YJx0E http://archive.vn/YJx0E

mrpickels 7y ago

I'm growing cucumbers in my garden, I am successful!