4 ms·

Like most things, there are shades of gray and it’s not black and white. China made some critical missteps early on in silencing doctors who spoke up about a n

by gdubs 7y ago

Like most things, there are shades of gray and it’s not black and white. China made some critical missteps early on in silencing doctors who spoke up about a novel virus. They also downplayed the crisis to avoid bad news around the New Years celebration (and kept the banquet in Wuhan that was a turning point in the explosive growth of the virus). Once they mobilized, yes, it was impressive — and judging by their numbers today, it has been effective. The US is also a mixed bag. There’s going to be _wide_ variation in the response at state and local levels. But something really stinks with the lack of testing. And despite having China and then Italy show us how seriously we needed to be taking this, we sleep-walked through a critical period and are now creating the top of the roller coaster.

aqme28 7y ago
> China made some critical missteps early on in silencing doctors who spoke up about a novel virus. We are doing that too. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de... > They also downplayed the crisis to avoid bad news around the New Years celebration (and kept the banquet in Wuhan that was a turning point in the explosive growth of the virus). And we're downplaying the crisis to avoid bad news in an election year.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  How is the story you linked anything like arresting people for taking this seriously? Not having adequate testing early on is not the same as arresting good samaritans.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    > Federal and state officials said the flu study could not be repurposed because it did not have explicit permission from research subjects; the labs were also not certified for clinical work. While acknowledging the ethical questions, Dr. Chu and others argued there should be more flexibility in an emergency during which so many lives could be lost. On Monday night, state regulators told them to stop testing altogether. While the researches weren't arrested, they were obstructed and then prohibited from continuing to test even though they helped uncover a major outbreak.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      This is not a prohibition on testing to protect the egos of politicians, this is a refusal of authorization for a specific medical practice, because of bureaucracy. They are not being reprimanded for speaking their mind, they are literally being published in the New York Times. There is no moral equivalence between these two things. Nobody is barred from expressing whatever knowledge they have of the outbreak by anything except their own professional agreements. No reasonable parallel is drawn between the total suppression of independent expression about an outbreak, and a regulator inflexibly deciding that a clinical professional is not qualified to practice some field.
skrtskrt 7y ago
The US did not just sleep-walk, they actively suppressed the warnings of doctors and health professionals. Today they are saying they do not plan to mobilize drive-thru/mass testing because they don't want to get in the way of the relationship between a patient and provider, the same bullshit private-insurance talking point, now applied to an even more intense and immediate public health crisis. edit to clarify: 1. I agree there are shades of grey here, but the US' shade regarding suppression of information is closer to China's than is being widely reported. 2. The US' patchwork, profit-driven health system and purposely-underfunded government agencies are completely incapable of mobilizing at the necessary scale, even if it somehow found the motivation for any greater good beyond the profits of the private insurance industry and the asset managers that are buying up and gutting hospital systems. This is incompetence by design over many decades.
Jommi 7y ago
Wuhan Municipal Government != Chinese Central Government You're not conflating actions in US states as reflective of the US gov either are you?
- simonh 7y ago
  This is true, but knowing China well I think the same would probably have happened anywhere else. It's a direct result of the system of controls and incentives imposed by the party.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    I'm unsure what you mean by "would have probably happened anywhere else"
    - simonh 7y ago
      Sorry I mean anywhere else in China, in other words we can’t just blame the authorities in Wuhan.
surge 7y ago
The difference is, here we're allowed to speak up, even the CDC to some extent, counter the President's opinion. The facts are still available No one has that opportunity in China when it comes to Xi Xinping's message, if they do, they're censored or get a visit to their home by the police. I see Trump to some extent trying to negate a mass panic amongst the populace by downplaying it while the real decision makers look to the CDC to make decisions about what actions to take. At least the optimistic side of me believes that's how its working. Problem is its now backfiring and people are saying its just another flu, which curtails any advice the CDC has on cancelling events, limiting contact, etc.
- resters 7y ago
  That perspective is remarkably charitable to Trump, who not only claimed that the virus was a "hoax", but mobilized his loyalists in the media to spread harmful ideas about the level of contagion and lethality. It is important to realize that Trump's comments about COVID-19 likely caused many people to defy their own common sense intuitions and do the opposite of what the experts have recommended. In the US, direct censorship by government is not necessary. Voices that the government doesn't approve of are quickly censored/deplatformed by private sector firms, news feed algos are updated to suppress certain kinds of information, etc. The extent to which firm authoritarian measures are necessary is determined by how compliant/obedient the citizens are. The Chinese government must be more heavy handed because there is an active culture of dissent, not because China is somehow innately more authoritarian.
  - Mountain_Skies 7y ago
    The president did not call the virus a hoax. You're either being intentionally disingenuous or are poorly informed. Before you post an out of context link to a partisan blog, go find the entire statement in context and realize everyone else here is quite able to do the same. If you wish to remain in an information bubble, that's your choice but don't be surprised when others who do not pop that bubble when you attempt to spread misinformation.
    - 7y ago

by gdubs 7y ago

aqme28 7y ago

> China made some critical missteps early on in silencing doctors who spoke up about a novel virus. We are doing that too. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de... > They also downplayed the crisis to avoid bad news around the New Years celebration (and kept the banquet in Wuhan that was a turning point in the explosive growth of the virus). And we're downplaying the crisis to avoid bad news in an election year.

microcolonel 7y ago
How is the story you linked anything like arresting people for taking this seriously? Not having adequate testing early on is not the same as arresting good samaritans.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  > Federal and state officials said the flu study could not be repurposed because it did not have explicit permission from research subjects; the labs were also not certified for clinical work. While acknowledging the ethical questions, Dr. Chu and others argued there should be more flexibility in an emergency during which so many lives could be lost. On Monday night, state regulators told them to stop testing altogether. While the researches weren't arrested, they were obstructed and then prohibited from continuing to test even though they helped uncover a major outbreak.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    This is not a prohibition on testing to protect the egos of politicians, this is a refusal of authorization for a specific medical practice, because of bureaucracy. They are not being reprimanded for speaking their mind, they are literally being published in the New York Times. There is no moral equivalence between these two things. Nobody is barred from expressing whatever knowledge they have of the outbreak by anything except their own professional agreements. No reasonable parallel is drawn between the total suppression of independent expression about an outbreak, and a regulator inflexibly deciding that a clinical professional is not qualified to practice some field.

skrtskrt 7y ago

The US did not just sleep-walk, they actively suppressed the warnings of doctors and health professionals. Today they are saying they do not plan to mobilize drive-thru/mass testing because they don't want to get in the way of the relationship between a patient and provider, the same bullshit private-insurance talking point, now applied to an even more intense and immediate public health crisis. edit to clarify: 1. I agree there are shades of grey here, but the US' shade regarding suppression of information is closer to China's than is being widely reported. 2. The US' patchwork, profit-driven health system and purposely-underfunded government agencies are completely incapable of mobilizing at the necessary scale, even if it somehow found the motivation for any greater good beyond the profits of the private insurance industry and the asset managers that are buying up and gutting hospital systems. This is incompetence by design over many decades.

Jommi 7y ago

Wuhan Municipal Government != Chinese Central Government You're not conflating actions in US states as reflective of the US gov either are you?

simonh 7y ago
This is true, but knowing China well I think the same would probably have happened anywhere else. It's a direct result of the system of controls and incentives imposed by the party.
- Jommi 7y ago
  I'm unsure what you mean by "would have probably happened anywhere else"
  - simonh 7y ago
    Sorry I mean anywhere else in China, in other words we can’t just blame the authorities in Wuhan.

surge 7y ago

The difference is, here we're allowed to speak up, even the CDC to some extent, counter the President's opinion. The facts are still available No one has that opportunity in China when it comes to Xi Xinping's message, if they do, they're censored or get a visit to their home by the police. I see Trump to some extent trying to negate a mass panic amongst the populace by downplaying it while the real decision makers look to the CDC to make decisions about what actions to take. At least the optimistic side of me believes that's how its working. Problem is its now backfiring and people are saying its just another flu, which curtails any advice the CDC has on cancelling events, limiting contact, etc.

resters 7y ago
That perspective is remarkably charitable to Trump, who not only claimed that the virus was a "hoax", but mobilized his loyalists in the media to spread harmful ideas about the level of contagion and lethality. It is important to realize that Trump's comments about COVID-19 likely caused many people to defy their own common sense intuitions and do the opposite of what the experts have recommended. In the US, direct censorship by government is not necessary. Voices that the government doesn't approve of are quickly censored/deplatformed by private sector firms, news feed algos are updated to suppress certain kinds of information, etc. The extent to which firm authoritarian measures are necessary is determined by how compliant/obedient the citizens are. The Chinese government must be more heavy handed because there is an active culture of dissent, not because China is somehow innately more authoritarian.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  The president did not call the virus a hoax. You're either being intentionally disingenuous or are poorly informed. Before you post an out of context link to a partisan blog, go find the entire statement in context and realize everyone else here is quite able to do the same. If you wish to remain in an information bubble, that's your choice but don't be surprised when others who do not pop that bubble when you attempt to spread misinformation.
  - 7y ago