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Anyone following the social media and the news would’ve called the pandemic weeks ago. I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized

Anyone following the social media and the news would’ve called the pandemic weeks ago. I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized institutions in our highly complex world. They are single points of failure which introduce significant systemic risks. CDC also dropped the ball on this one. In Washington state local authorities discovered the outbreak only because they defied federal regulators. We need better organization at the local level, and we need it now.

IAmEveryone 7y ago
The WHO knew (and told people) that this disease had the potential for a pandemic and/or widespread harm a long time ago. Here’s a two-months old article with the title “Narrowing window to contain outbreak, WHO says”: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51591091 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51591091 There is a difference between a potential, or even a certain, pandemic and an actual one. You and the WHO knew what it meant when you looked at that egg. But only now has it become an actual chicken.
allovernow 7y ago
>I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized institutions in our highly complex world. While I too favor decentralization, what we really need to do is return merit to our institutions. We need a social climate that encourages Pattons and Churchills and the like. Unfortunately to return to such a time of competent leadership (not just in government, but society at large) would require undoing decades of propaganda that convinced some two generations of children that we all have equal ability and any of us can do anything. The dangerous downside of giving everyone a trophy across society is that now people have grown up less able to judge competence and merit in others.
- mr9 7y ago
  Yeah, now world environment goona change. All people need to care about COVID-9. In some country can't find surgical masks but suddenly I can find it from a website. They sale at a cheap rate, if you need then you can buy your mask from here https://cutt.ly/StsiWK8 https://cutt.ly/StsiWK8
- rndmize 7y ago
  I'm fairly sure the quality of institutions in this day and age has almost nothing to do with participation trophies/equal ability propaganda, as this kind of thing rapidly gets torn to shreds as soon as one enters the job market. I suspect it has a great deal to do with decades of people blaming government for their problems and increasingly less faith in government institutions, to the point of some politicians running on the idea that government doesn't work. It strikes me as difficult to get competent people for your organizations when the term "unelected bureaucrats" is used as an epithet, the pay is below equivalent work in the private sector, and the people at the top are selected for idealogical reasons instead of anything related to effectiveness, expertise or capability.
- atq2119 7y ago
  It's funny how in those political discussions, comments often say more about the commenter. For example, I would argue that the "propaganda" that anybody can do anything isn't that old yet. On the other hand, certain political groups have been sabotaging government leadership for so long - by claiming that government is always incapable - that there's just no good leadership left in many places and it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
majos 7y ago
Why is this evidence that “we need to abolish centralized institutions”? It’s not like every local organization can marshal expertise on every issue. Perhaps the WHO misjudged the coronavirus, but I’m confused about how this is suddenly a referendum on large institutions and the superiority of local ones. Running the WHO seems hard. Alarm people too often and they will tune you out. Miss an alarm once and they will call you incompetent (“you had one job!”).
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  There's nothing wrong with having large-scale institutions. The problem is when local organizations can't act without a single centralized institution giving the OK. National health departments listen to the WHO but can take action as needed without WHO signoff; local health departments in the US often literally could not test for the coronavirus, even though they had the tools and the capacity and the desire to make tests, because they didn't have federal approval.
  - majos 7y ago
    > local health departments in the US often literally could not test for the coronavirus, even though they had the tools and the capacity and the desire to make tests, because they didn't have federal approval But that’s a judgement against the United States’ federal government, not the WHO. The WHO does not actively constrain governments, they just offer guidance (as far as I know!).
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      In principle, that's true, and certainly a point in the WHO's favor. In practice, it sounds like a lot of things are happening only conditional on the WHO's statement that it's a pandemic, which if true reflects a lack of local adaptability. I don't think it's the WHO's fault, necessarily, but local authorities need to have the capacity and skills to feel they don't have to rely on the WHO's judgment of such things.
- plainOldText 7y ago
TeMPOraL 7y ago
If anything, this is evidence that we need to empower centralized institutions. China started late and fucked up early, but they dealt with it (at least for now). And we'd all be in a much different place now if WHO had actual power and could start bossing countries around a month or two ago. Similar to how the number 1 problem with the UN is that it has absolutely zero power to do anything.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  sorry but 3 months ago WHO was complaining that China is taking too strong measures that are hurting the local population and are not proven to work. WHO never recommended shutting down cities or regions, which as we can see is the only thing that works. > He urged the public to remain calm, saying WHO wasn’t recommending “measures that unnecessarily interfere with international trade or travel. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/30/who-declares-china-coronavirus-a-global-health-emergency.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/30/who-declares-china-coronavir...) WHO fucked up big time IMO. thousands of employees there, most probably appointed politically by country of origin and who have nothing to do with science.
Andrex 7y ago
> Anyone following the social media and the news would’ve called the pandemic weeks ago. I would not trust the unstoppable gushing torrent of dubious information that is Twitter over whoever may be giving the World Health Organization its information.
- plainOldText 7y ago
  I guess it depends on who you follow on Twitter.
  - Andrex 7y ago
    That's true. You also need to be sensitive about echo chambers, and that's something humans also routinely fail at. I trust credible experts, not the self-selection of Twitter accounts telling me what I already believe. Even if you 100% trust everyone you follow, and also believe them to be entirely impartial, the nature of Twitter makes it so easy to spread misinformation (mixed in with real stuff.) Twitter is optimized for viral content, not true content.
ulkesh 7y ago
You're not wrong, but to be fair, the CDC has to fight for funding all the time. If Trump gets his way with his budget proposals, it'll only get worse.
paulddraper 7y ago
> I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized institutions in our highly complex world. Oh, I thought you were going to say this teaches us why international trade and travel is bad, and relationships between countries should be minimal.

IAmEveryone 7y ago

The WHO knew (and told people) that this disease had the potential for a pandemic and/or widespread harm a long time ago. Here’s a two-months old article with the title “Narrowing window to contain outbreak, WHO says”: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51591091 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51591091 There is a difference between a potential, or even a certain, pandemic and an actual one. You and the WHO knew what it meant when you looked at that egg. But only now has it become an actual chicken.

allovernow 7y ago

>I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized institutions in our highly complex world. While I too favor decentralization, what we really need to do is return merit to our institutions. We need a social climate that encourages Pattons and Churchills and the like. Unfortunately to return to such a time of competent leadership (not just in government, but society at large) would require undoing decades of propaganda that convinced some two generations of children that we all have equal ability and any of us can do anything. The dangerous downside of giving everyone a trophy across society is that now people have grown up less able to judge competence and merit in others.

mr9 7y ago
Yeah, now world environment goona change. All people need to care about COVID-9. In some country can't find surgical masks but suddenly I can find it from a website. They sale at a cheap rate, if you need then you can buy your mask from here https://cutt.ly/StsiWK8 https://cutt.ly/StsiWK8
rndmize 7y ago
I'm fairly sure the quality of institutions in this day and age has almost nothing to do with participation trophies/equal ability propaganda, as this kind of thing rapidly gets torn to shreds as soon as one enters the job market. I suspect it has a great deal to do with decades of people blaming government for their problems and increasingly less faith in government institutions, to the point of some politicians running on the idea that government doesn't work. It strikes me as difficult to get competent people for your organizations when the term "unelected bureaucrats" is used as an epithet, the pay is below equivalent work in the private sector, and the people at the top are selected for idealogical reasons instead of anything related to effectiveness, expertise or capability.
atq2119 7y ago
It's funny how in those political discussions, comments often say more about the commenter. For example, I would argue that the "propaganda" that anybody can do anything isn't that old yet. On the other hand, certain political groups have been sabotaging government leadership for so long - by claiming that government is always incapable - that there's just no good leadership left in many places and it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

majos 7y ago

Why is this evidence that “we need to abolish centralized institutions”? It’s not like every local organization can marshal expertise on every issue. Perhaps the WHO misjudged the coronavirus, but I’m confused about how this is suddenly a referendum on large institutions and the superiority of local ones. Running the WHO seems hard. Alarm people too often and they will tune you out. Miss an alarm once and they will call you incompetent (“you had one job!”).

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
There's nothing wrong with having large-scale institutions. The problem is when local organizations can't act without a single centralized institution giving the OK. National health departments listen to the WHO but can take action as needed without WHO signoff; local health departments in the US often literally could not test for the coronavirus, even though they had the tools and the capacity and the desire to make tests, because they didn't have federal approval.
- majos 7y ago
  > local health departments in the US often literally could not test for the coronavirus, even though they had the tools and the capacity and the desire to make tests, because they didn't have federal approval But that’s a judgement against the United States’ federal government, not the WHO. The WHO does not actively constrain governments, they just offer guidance (as far as I know!).
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    In principle, that's true, and certainly a point in the WHO's favor. In practice, it sounds like a lot of things are happening only conditional on the WHO's statement that it's a pandemic, which if true reflects a lack of local adaptability. I don't think it's the WHO's fault, necessarily, but local authorities need to have the capacity and skills to feel they don't have to rely on the WHO's judgment of such things.
plainOldText 7y ago

TeMPOraL 7y ago

If anything, this is evidence that we need to empower centralized institutions. China started late and fucked up early, but they dealt with it (at least for now). And we'd all be in a much different place now if WHO had actual power and could start bossing countries around a month or two ago. Similar to how the number 1 problem with the UN is that it has absolutely zero power to do anything.

PunchTornado 7y ago
sorry but 3 months ago WHO was complaining that China is taking too strong measures that are hurting the local population and are not proven to work. WHO never recommended shutting down cities or regions, which as we can see is the only thing that works. > He urged the public to remain calm, saying WHO wasn’t recommending “measures that unnecessarily interfere with international trade or travel. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/30/who-declares-china-coronavirus-a-global-health-emergency.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/30/who-declares-china-coronavir...) WHO fucked up big time IMO. thousands of employees there, most probably appointed politically by country of origin and who have nothing to do with science.

Andrex 7y ago

> Anyone following the social media and the news would’ve called the pandemic weeks ago. I would not trust the unstoppable gushing torrent of dubious information that is Twitter over whoever may be giving the World Health Organization its information.

plainOldText 7y ago
I guess it depends on who you follow on Twitter.
- Andrex 7y ago
  That's true. You also need to be sensitive about echo chambers, and that's something humans also routinely fail at. I trust credible experts, not the self-selection of Twitter accounts telling me what I already believe. Even if you 100% trust everyone you follow, and also believe them to be entirely impartial, the nature of Twitter makes it so easy to spread misinformation (mixed in with real stuff.) Twitter is optimized for viral content, not true content.

ulkesh 7y ago

You're not wrong, but to be fair, the CDC has to fight for funding all the time. If Trump gets his way with his budget proposals, it'll only get worse.

paulddraper 7y ago

> I hope this will make people realize that we need to abolish centralized institutions in our highly complex world. Oh, I thought you were going to say this teaches us why international trade and travel is bad, and relationships between countries should be minimal.