4 ms·

Seems like focusing on blaming individuals rather than: - Employers don't allow telecommuting. - Employers with draconian sick leave policies. - No paid sick

Seems like focusing on blaming individuals rather than: - Employers don't allow telecommuting. - Employers with draconian sick leave policies. - No paid sick leave for the majority of jobs (and or strict limits). - Limited access to testing to know if you have Covid-19 (Vs. a common cold). Which is significant with e.g. Walmarts new policies which ONLY allow Covid-19 paid sick leave. Ultimately we set up a system where most people lose by default, then we critique those people for their personal failings without a hint of irony.

icebraining 7y ago
I don't see any blame (except for "our governments"), I see advice.
ldeangelis 7y ago
> Limited access to testing to know if you have Covid-19 This is a huge one, at least in France. A friend recently tried to get tested because he was coughing heavily and had a fever. His doctor asked if he went to Italy or China recently, he said no, his doctor replied "Well then you don't have it." and that was the end of it.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  I don't understand. How are doctors this stupid? We have obvious communal transmission in France (and other countries). And if nobody is fucking testing for it, the doctor can't fucking say that you can't have it. What happened to evidence-based medicine?
  - hatenberg 7y ago
    France is playing the not testing game. Singapore had 4 imported cases in the last 2 days from there.
  - mcv 7y ago
    I guess the test shortage is not limited to the US? When my son got a cold, I also preferred to get him tested, but couldn't. Soon it became pretty obvious it was just a cold, but still, without a negative test for him, I'm not allowed to come to the office. It's pretty clear that it's spreading faster than they can keep track of by merely tracking who you had contact with. I can understand they don't want to waste time or resources on people who obviously have a simple cold, but I'd rather they did test people who report flu cases.
  - kryogen1c 7y ago
    > How are doctors this stupid? ... the doctor can't fucking say that you can't have it. What happened to evidence-based medicine? You clearly have no idea what youre talking about. When something 100x less severe than the coronavirus happens, there is an ABSOLUTE AVALANCHE of people calling in on the full spectrum of sickness, from psychosomatic, to actually sick but with the wrong thing, to actually sick with the right thing but minor cases, to people that will actually die if not seen but cant make their case clear. The reality of the situation is that without instant, free, over-the-phone test results, this is a reasonable response from oversaturated medical systems.
    - jplayer01 7y ago
      Test, test, test. South Korea has tested 100.000 people. In Europe? Nobody is doing anything. You can't respond to something when you have zero idea what the scale is. We're literally seeing Europe stick its head in the sand.somebody comes in with flu-like symptoms, you fucking test. Psychosomatic doesn't matter, either you have the symptoms or you don't. And if you do, you test, test, fucking test. Not tell people to go home, you obviously can't have coronavirus. The diagnostic is dead simple. Look at any health ministry of any country. It doesn't take a medical degree to understand that if you have flu-like symptoms, you need to be tested for the flu. And if you don't have any of the flu strains making the rounds, test for Coronavirus. You know, exactly what SK is able to do but somehow Europe isn't.
      - kryogen1c 7y ago
        Tests are not free, not 100% accurate, and not 100% available. The doctor you called stupid is in control of exactly 0 of those factors, and has no effect on europes policy.
        jplayer01 7y ago
        And Europe's policy needs to change. Nobody is saying dealing with this epidemic is going to be free. Yet the doctor is one of many who are dismissing the likelihood of somebody having coronavirus just because they haven't been to Italy. So yes, stupid.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cabraca 7y ago
  Same in Germany. An aquaintance of mine had a fever after a trip to Singapore. He called the hotline, the local health department, the local clinic. nobody helped him, always directed him to call someone else. After 5 hours a doctor called and told him "its just the flu, get a bath and rest". No testing, no quarantine, nothing. He's in self-quarantine now...
- huseyinkeles 7y ago
  Same in the Netherlands. When one of my colleagues asked to get a test her GP asked if she’s been to one of those countries, when she said no, she didn’t get any tests :(
mumblemumble 7y ago
> blaming individuals Or is it encouraging individuals to start making more of a grassroots effort to effect change for their own sakes, rather than sitting around waiting for the people with little to gain and much to lose in enacting more human policies to suddenly have a change of heart?
- dpau 7y ago
  it reminds me of climate change, pushing blame onto individuals while corporations and governments continue business as usual. sure, recycle that bottle. quarantine yourself. but in the grand scheme of things it makes very little difference compared to if corporations and governments took the actions necessary.
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    They won't do it for no reason at all, though. They will do it in response to public pressure. Which means that change inevitably has to start with individuals. Trying to insist that it's corporations' and governments' job to make the first move is only useful in situations where assigning blame is more important than dealing with the problem. Perhaps related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
    - dpau 7y ago
      as an example, two weeks ago i made sure i had enough supplies to last a month. started taking precautions. social distancing, hand washing, etc. doing the best i can. then co-worker takes a coronavirus vacation due to discounted tickets. others are driving in from around the country for spring break. i've done all i can, but it's almost meaningless because others don't understand the risk and the government hasn't taken steps to limit movement and test.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
braindongle 7y ago
Blaming? This is a rallying cry. The problems you list are important. Nonetheless, social distancing is perhaps the strongest weapon against this pandemic. Point fingers if you like, but also take responsibility.
sonicxxg 7y ago
Agree with you. I feel whoever put page up, who is brave enough to curse, but not enough to indicate his name, should leave his little social bubble and look at the reality of lower income folks. For a lot of people, telecommuting is not a reality. I foresee a lot of people being highly impacted financially, if a quarantine is declared in the USA, which lacks a lot of social assistance regulations from other countries.
mcv 7y ago
The manifesto is not blaming people, it's blaming governments for not doing enough. It's calling on people to take care of themselves. That said, in the US with its tradition of completely ignoring all needs of employees, there are a lot of people for who this advice would amount to quitting their job, and it's pretty obvious a lot of people can't afford that. Employers should definitely do their part by encouraging people to work from home, and paying sick people to stay home so they don't infect their co-workers. I honestly don't understand what kind of employers would want an epidemic to spread in their offices. Reading about American employers is baffling compared to my own. Everybody is encouraged to work from home. In face, every week half of the company is required to work from home. If anyone in your household has a cold, you have to work from home for two weeks. It may be a slight overreaction, but that's vastly better than just ignoring the problem. From everything I hear, I seriously fear COVID-19 is going to wreak havoc in the US. They seem to have fine-tuned their country to be as vulnerable as possible to this: Many people with no or poor health insurance, no sick days, who are very easy to fire, will feel forced to go to work no matter how sick they are. Then there's Trump firing the pandemic crisis team, a dramatic shortage of tests, and nobody seems to be in charge over this thing, or even know anything at all.
mnm1 7y ago
Who is blaming here? This is a movement by the concerned for everyone. Our government is the one that has completely failed us, not just employers. Employers are expected to fail us. Every one of the issues above could be solved by a government that wanted to stop this. But no, it's a hoax to our government. Or whatever dumb shit idea they are on now. If anything, that's who the blame is falling on implicitly in this article and rightfully so. The response has been a disaster, especially in the US. After this, the only good thing that can come if it is if these scumbags get the virus themselves and it runs its course. That's the policy they are pushing anyway. So it's up to people to do what they can in the face of almost complete government inaction on the problem. What else can we do? Expect employers to fix it? It's amazing what has been done so far by then has been done without coercion. We should congratulate any steps taken voluntarily by the business sector.

icebraining 7y ago

I don't see any blame (except for "our governments"), I see advice.

ldeangelis 7y ago

> Limited access to testing to know if you have Covid-19 This is a huge one, at least in France. A friend recently tried to get tested because he was coughing heavily and had a fever. His doctor asked if he went to Italy or China recently, he said no, his doctor replied "Well then you don't have it." and that was the end of it.

jplayer01 7y ago
I don't understand. How are doctors this stupid? We have obvious communal transmission in France (and other countries). And if nobody is fucking testing for it, the doctor can't fucking say that you can't have it. What happened to evidence-based medicine?
- hatenberg 7y ago
  France is playing the not testing game. Singapore had 4 imported cases in the last 2 days from there.
- mcv 7y ago
  I guess the test shortage is not limited to the US? When my son got a cold, I also preferred to get him tested, but couldn't. Soon it became pretty obvious it was just a cold, but still, without a negative test for him, I'm not allowed to come to the office. It's pretty clear that it's spreading faster than they can keep track of by merely tracking who you had contact with. I can understand they don't want to waste time or resources on people who obviously have a simple cold, but I'd rather they did test people who report flu cases.
- kryogen1c 7y ago
  > How are doctors this stupid? ... the doctor can't fucking say that you can't have it. What happened to evidence-based medicine? You clearly have no idea what youre talking about. When something 100x less severe than the coronavirus happens, there is an ABSOLUTE AVALANCHE of people calling in on the full spectrum of sickness, from psychosomatic, to actually sick but with the wrong thing, to actually sick with the right thing but minor cases, to people that will actually die if not seen but cant make their case clear. The reality of the situation is that without instant, free, over-the-phone test results, this is a reasonable response from oversaturated medical systems.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Test, test, test. South Korea has tested 100.000 people. In Europe? Nobody is doing anything. You can't respond to something when you have zero idea what the scale is. We're literally seeing Europe stick its head in the sand.somebody comes in with flu-like symptoms, you fucking test. Psychosomatic doesn't matter, either you have the symptoms or you don't. And if you do, you test, test, fucking test. Not tell people to go home, you obviously can't have coronavirus. The diagnostic is dead simple. Look at any health ministry of any country. It doesn't take a medical degree to understand that if you have flu-like symptoms, you need to be tested for the flu. And if you don't have any of the flu strains making the rounds, test for Coronavirus. You know, exactly what SK is able to do but somehow Europe isn't.
    - kryogen1c 7y ago
      Tests are not free, not 100% accurate, and not 100% available. The doctor you called stupid is in control of exactly 0 of those factors, and has no effect on europes policy.
      - jplayer01 7y ago
        And Europe's policy needs to change. Nobody is saying dealing with this epidemic is going to be free. Yet the doctor is one of many who are dismissing the likelihood of somebody having coronavirus just because they haven't been to Italy. So yes, stupid.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cabraca 7y ago
Same in Germany. An aquaintance of mine had a fever after a trip to Singapore. He called the hotline, the local health department, the local clinic. nobody helped him, always directed him to call someone else. After 5 hours a doctor called and told him "its just the flu, get a bath and rest". No testing, no quarantine, nothing. He's in self-quarantine now...
huseyinkeles 7y ago
Same in the Netherlands. When one of my colleagues asked to get a test her GP asked if she’s been to one of those countries, when she said no, she didn’t get any tests :(

mumblemumble 7y ago

> blaming individuals Or is it encouraging individuals to start making more of a grassroots effort to effect change for their own sakes, rather than sitting around waiting for the people with little to gain and much to lose in enacting more human policies to suddenly have a change of heart?

dpau 7y ago
it reminds me of climate change, pushing blame onto individuals while corporations and governments continue business as usual. sure, recycle that bottle. quarantine yourself. but in the grand scheme of things it makes very little difference compared to if corporations and governments took the actions necessary.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  They won't do it for no reason at all, though. They will do it in response to public pressure. Which means that change inevitably has to start with individuals. Trying to insist that it's corporations' and governments' job to make the first move is only useful in situations where assigning blame is more important than dealing with the problem. Perhaps related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
  - dpau 7y ago
    as an example, two weeks ago i made sure i had enough supplies to last a month. started taking precautions. social distancing, hand washing, etc. doing the best i can. then co-worker takes a coronavirus vacation due to discounted tickets. others are driving in from around the country for spring break. i've done all i can, but it's almost meaningless because others don't understand the risk and the government hasn't taken steps to limit movement and test.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

braindongle 7y ago

Blaming? This is a rallying cry. The problems you list are important. Nonetheless, social distancing is perhaps the strongest weapon against this pandemic. Point fingers if you like, but also take responsibility.

sonicxxg 7y ago

Agree with you. I feel whoever put page up, who is brave enough to curse, but not enough to indicate his name, should leave his little social bubble and look at the reality of lower income folks. For a lot of people, telecommuting is not a reality. I foresee a lot of people being highly impacted financially, if a quarantine is declared in the USA, which lacks a lot of social assistance regulations from other countries.

mcv 7y ago

The manifesto is not blaming people, it's blaming governments for not doing enough. It's calling on people to take care of themselves. That said, in the US with its tradition of completely ignoring all needs of employees, there are a lot of people for who this advice would amount to quitting their job, and it's pretty obvious a lot of people can't afford that. Employers should definitely do their part by encouraging people to work from home, and paying sick people to stay home so they don't infect their co-workers. I honestly don't understand what kind of employers would want an epidemic to spread in their offices. Reading about American employers is baffling compared to my own. Everybody is encouraged to work from home. In face, every week half of the company is required to work from home. If anyone in your household has a cold, you have to work from home for two weeks. It may be a slight overreaction, but that's vastly better than just ignoring the problem. From everything I hear, I seriously fear COVID-19 is going to wreak havoc in the US. They seem to have fine-tuned their country to be as vulnerable as possible to this: Many people with no or poor health insurance, no sick days, who are very easy to fire, will feel forced to go to work no matter how sick they are. Then there's Trump firing the pandemic crisis team, a dramatic shortage of tests, and nobody seems to be in charge over this thing, or even know anything at all.

mnm1 7y ago

Who is blaming here? This is a movement by the concerned for everyone. Our government is the one that has completely failed us, not just employers. Employers are expected to fail us. Every one of the issues above could be solved by a government that wanted to stop this. But no, it's a hoax to our government. Or whatever dumb shit idea they are on now. If anything, that's who the blame is falling on implicitly in this article and rightfully so. The response has been a disaster, especially in the US. After this, the only good thing that can come if it is if these scumbags get the virus themselves and it runs its course. That's the policy they are pushing anyway. So it's up to people to do what they can in the face of almost complete government inaction on the problem. What else can we do? Expect employers to fix it? It's amazing what has been done so far by then has been done without coercion. We should congratulate any steps taken voluntarily by the business sector.