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I find it a very strange coincidence that the recent law in France to update the tax incentives against CO2 emitters and towards EV placed a new, previously non
by lloeki 7y ago
I find it a very strange coincidence that the recent law in France to update the tax incentives against CO2 emitters and towards EV placed a new, previously nonexistent limit precisely right below the base Tesla price, excluding everything above (and thus every Tesla car) from the incentive.
As it turns out, local EV cars such as the Renault Zoe are below the threshold, not the least because you buy the car but rent the battery, so the price appears much lower to the consumer, and the price of the battery is magically not factored in against the threshold.
- johannes1234321 7y agoIn Germany there was (is?) a rule that for receiving a government incentive the "base model" of a car without "extras" had to below 60k. Tesla quickly offered a model on that price point ... people bought this in the version with extras (as one always does ...) later they had to repay the incentive as it was rruled that the base model didn't exist, as Tesla wouldn't sell.
- mgoetzke 7y agoThis time it seems different. The BAFA explicitly lists even the long range and performance models as base price of less than 40k. Listed under Model 3 2020.
- Reason077 7y ago> "I find it a very strange coincidence that the recent law in France to update the tax incentives against CO2 emitters and towards EV placed a new, previously nonexistent limit precisely right below the base Tesla price" This isn't necessarily a bad or evil thing to do. A price threshold increases the incentive for manufacturers to reduce their costs and bring their pricing under the threshold. Subsidy or not, EV prices must come down before they can fully displace combustion as the mainstream technology. (In Tesla's case, EU import tariffs are included in their prices. Once the Berlin factory is up and running, they'll be more competitive in Europe)
- slowmotarget 7y agoIt's a non-issue for most French people like myself. In France, the Tesla cars are in the luxury price segment. There's no need to incentive the car that only wealthy people can afford.
- esotericn 7y agoRealistically, only wealthy people can afford new cars in general. It's not clear that an incentive is any less valuable to someone who can pay 40k for a car instead of 20k, money is money, saving it is going to skew decisions for anyone.
- riffraff 7y agopeople can afford to buy a new car and pay by instalments relatively easily, especially for small city cars which are common in Europe. You need to have income, but you can get a car on a bluecollar salary, and an incentive of 10% on the price is significant. If you're actually wealthy you'll want to buy a bigger car, and the same incentive is both less significant and less useful.
- kragen 7y agoA "bluecollar salary" in Europe is enough to qualify as "wealthy"; that's why a significant number of people from my country have moved to Europe to work as waiters and kindergarten teachers and whatnot. There are lots of cars on the road here but they all belong to wealthy people or taxi drivers. And this is a middle-income country; in poor countries access to cars is even more limited.
- esotericn 7y agoDefinitionally a person who can spend 20K on a car when something serviceable is available for 2K is wealthy by some description. They have a good amount of disposable income. I don't mean to claim that anyone who buys a new car is financially independent.
- mgoetzke 7y agoActually a new gas car for 20k EUR is definitely more expensive than a 40k Tesla over the years. Gas cars burn a lot of money over the years. And those expensive cars also then get cheaper to buy on the used car markets. Then again Tesla is not hurting, they sell just about everything they can build.
- RareSoft 7y agoThe french state holds a 15% stake in Renault according to Wikipedia so I doubt it's any coincidence. The government likely wants to give local manufacturers an advantage even if it means not playing fair. I don't know if it's right but I understand why they do it (jobs & tax revenue).
- nraynaud 7y agoI wouldn't read too much into their stake into Renault, they give a lot of money to PSA also. On the subject matter, Tesla cars are a problem, they are too big and heavy for Europe. And European car makers should stop increasing their car sizes too.
- hencoappel 7y ago> too big and heavy for Europe You do realise that a battery is very heavy? Also, just because you don't want a bigger car, doesn't mean that others don't, there are still lost of smaller cars around.
- nraynaud 7y agoand those smaller cars get crushed in accidents, and pedestrians and bikes get killed and kids run over. This is a race to the bottom.
- necovek 7y agoWell, with the whole push for more environmentally friendly transportation, a bigger car will need more energy to be taken places. Unfortunately, I can't comfortably sit in my current D-segment vehicle because I am taller than average (and there is no room in the back behind me), and any seating in buses or trains is even worse (not to mention airplanes). So while I'd love to get the smallest car possible, I am a bit restricted if I want to actually fit my family in. I want a small electric car for city driving though! My back will manage for short rides (I hope)!
- vvillena 7y ago
- Tepix 7y agoIt was the same thing with the previous bonus in Germany that was limited to cars costing 60.000€ or less, blocking out the Tesla Model S. There also was a delay in the increase of the "Umweltbonus". Some people said it was on purpose to get closer to the release date of the Volkswagen ID.3 electric vehicle which will be slightly cheaper than Teslas Model 3. The increased Umweltbonus of 8000€ (4000€ of which are paid by the car companies) will be interesting to see in the context of the upcoming Dacia K-ZE low cost electric car. If they offer it for, say, 13000€ the price after Umweltbonus will be 5000€.
- mgoetzke 7y ago6000 EUR with 3000 EUR deducted
- londons_explore 7y agoFrance is well known for lawmaking to help companies with french values outcompete rivals. Airbus wanted to build a new freeway through a protected forest to deliver planes on, but EU rules prevented it. Instead they built the road and put a thin surface of gravel on top so they could claim it was a "forest track", and it became legal.
- benhurmarcel 7y ago> Airbus wanted to build a new freeway through a protected forest to deliver planes on Do you have a source or more details on this, because I fail to see what Airbus “freeway” or gravel road this could be referring to.
- xutopia 7y agoDo you think any other countries are different?
- londons_explore 7y agoSome countries have far more rigid rules with less interpretation flexibility, which allows less flexibility for favouring some companies over others. Other countries are just bad at getting anything done, for local or foreign companies.
- iknowstuff 7y agoCan we have a source please? Google shows nothing.
- TorKlingberg 7y agoIt is very common for car regulations to favor local manufacturers. It's one kind of those "non-tariff barriers" that are a big issue in trade talks.
- esotericn 7y agoThe UK charges zero vehicle emissions duty for electric cars. Unless they cost more than 40,000 at first sale, and then it's a few hundred quid a year after the first few years. Only the 'worst' model of the Model 3 is below that bar, pretty much all Tesla vehicles are subject to that tax.
- mprev 7y agoCan you expand on this? How is this charge collected? VED (Road tax) is £0 on all Teslas.
- esotericn 7y agohttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-duty/vehicle-excise-duty https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-excise-du... See *cars over £40,000 pay £310 supplement for 5 years The V5c for my Tesla Model S specifically mentioned this charge. I sold it recently so never had to pay it. I believe it's due for years 2-6 so a total of around 1500 quid.
- Reason077 7y agoThis (premium VED supplement) has just been abolished for pure EVs in today's budget. The new rules apply from April 1st, 2020.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- est31 7y agoAnd the US state of California is the first government to discover cheat devices in German cars, and the FAA is last to ban Boeing 737 MAX from flying. That's no coincidence. Countries are often very biased towards helping their own industries.
- SilasX 7y agoNitpick but, I think you mean, first government to take action against the cheat devices; it was West Virginia researchers who discovered it: https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-three-students-who-discovered-dieselgate-a-1173686.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-three-stud...
- est31 7y agoGood point, thanks. Can't edit it any more.
- sunstone 7y agoThe Canadian government did a similar thing about 2 years ago and Tesla then tweaked their cost structure so that they qualified.