8 ms·

But why are Browser gaining so much power, even to drive peripherals besides audio and video? That's fundamentally wrong and insecure

Sephr 7y ago
The current OS permission models used by applications and drivers that interface with these peripherals are much less secure than those used by browsers.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Yeah, but you'd still need a JavaScript VM escape to access them from a webpage.
  - bagacrap 7y ago
    I don't think you understand the comparison. Any native code that runs on your OS can do almost anything, like access your webcam. Code that runs in your browser can't do that unless you (the browser) grant the permission, or it finds a series of exploits. If you are suggesting browsers shouldn't offer access to webcams etc at all, that would not make the world more secure because the web would just die and we'd all be back to running native code.
moooo99 7y ago
I'd say the opposite is true. With more powerful browsers, you are making web applications more powerful and remove the need for a desktop app. Web apps, if built correctly, are probably more secure than desktop apps. Especially considering that you completely remove the need for user updates, since the website is updated by the developers. Plus, webbrowsers implement a proper permissions model unlike native apps, especially on Android, used to do.
- bjoli 7y ago
  Sure, web browsers implement a proper permission model, but: the surface of a browser is enormous. Just the sheer magnitude of a modern browser gives me vertigo. Chrome has how many compilers? How much code to handle broken input? Whereas most kernels are easy to understand (even relatively modern ones like seL4), also many parts of a browser are at the frontier of "applied CS". If I were to build something relatively small today, I don't think I would feel safe if it had to run in a browser due to the enormous complexity of a browser. I just don't think it is possible to secure them fully. Writing everything myself at least gives me a false sense of security in the sense that I at least believe I understand what is running :)
  - moooo99 7y ago
    Okay, from a software engineering perspective you're 100% right. Browsers are a very complex system and they'll continue to grow. But try to see it from a user perspective. You as a software developer know how your system works. You know what components you used, how to compile and install and how to secure. Your average user (depending on the target audience) doesn't know anything like this. Most users are happy when their current installation works, they often don't want to update, without realizing that this comes with the cost of their security. I feel like webapps are the easier way to keep users with no experience secure.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > Whereas most kernels are easy to understand Have you taken a look at Linux?!
gridlockd 7y ago
> That's fundamentally wrong and insecure What's fundamentally insecure about it? The permission model of the browser is better than that of desktop operating systems. You can argue that it's more opportunity for exploits, but then again many (if not most) exploits are found in processing and rendering text.
- danieldk 7y ago
  > What's fundamentally insecure about it? The permission model of the browser is better than that of desktop operating systems. And yet, sites exfiltrate enormous amounts of behavioral information. Whereas with a desktop app, I can just put it in a sandbox without network access and I am 100% sure that no data gets uploaded to anyone. I think we tend to focus too much on security as in whether some application can be exploited to get UID/ring 0 access (which is undeniably important) and not so much as in whether the application's creators can extract all kinds of personal information. While unfettered access has larger consequences, it is a relatively rare occurrence, whereas unwanted extraction of personal/behavioral information happens continuously.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > And yet, sites exfiltrate enormous amounts of behavioral information. Whereas with a desktop app, I can just put it in a sandbox without network access and I am 100% sure that no data gets uploaded to anyone. I don't see how that has anything to do with the security of the platform itself. Sure, some desktop apps can be sandboxed. Others don't work without some form of network connection. It's up to the developers what to (not) do here. > While unfettered access has larger consequences, it is a relatively rare occurrence, whereas unwanted extraction of personal/behavioral information happens continuously. A website or web app can not access any personal information that you haven't entered into it or its "partners". If cross-site tracking is your concern, there are ways to mitigate that.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      Just as there are ways to mitigate the dangers of running desktop applications. Point is: Web is not inherently better for your privacy or security.
konart 7y ago
>But why are Browser gaining so much power I'm confident that soon enough there won't be such a devision as web app and mobile app anyway. That's why imo.
- McTossOut 7y ago
  that's not soon enough
- robenkleene 7y ago
  Curious if you're aware that mobile web usage dropped from 14% to 8% from 2014 to 2016[0]? And that according to Alex Russell[1], Google's internal telemetry has it well below 7% now. It seems to me that the opposite is true, that the irrelevance of the web on mobile will keep the web app versus mobile app division around essentially forever (web apps will be popular on desktop, and native apps on mobile). (Unless I was misunderstanding and you were saying, what's the difference? E.g., Facebook is Facebook, whether it's a web app or a native app.) [0]: https://www.flurry.com/post/157921590345/us-consumers-time-spent-on-mobile-crosses-5 https://www.flurry.com/post/157921590345/us-consumers-time-s... [1]: https://vimeo.com/364402896 https://vimeo.com/364402896
  - cooljacob204 7y ago
    Well more and more mobile apps are becoming reskinned webapps. So from a technical standpoint it is becoming more meshed.
  - konart 7y ago
    That's sort of proves my point. Many apps these days are just a web app with a launcher for your homescreen. Lets say we have https://dynalist.io/ https://dynalist.io/. If you are going to open their web app in Safari and then open their iOS app - you will notice that UI is identical. Because it is the same UI! In one case you have to access it via a browser and the app is just the same frontend delivered to you as an iOS app. PWA or something similar - is the future. Hence all those APIs in browsers.
whywhywhywhy 7y ago
The more features like this a browser has the less excuse manufacturers of connected devices have for relying on mobile apps. We were moving too far into a world where anything connected required a mobile companion app that inherently has a lifespan because of how averse to legacy apps the mobile ecosystem is.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't think the reason I can't use Discord and Slack via my mobile browser is due to a lack of NFC support.
cameronfraser 7y ago
No less secure than some random desktop application that does the same thing
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
why are Browser gaining so much power Because Google delivers its services through web browsers.

Sephr 7y ago

The current OS permission models used by applications and drivers that interface with these peripherals are much less secure than those used by browsers.

saagarjha 7y ago
Yeah, but you'd still need a JavaScript VM escape to access them from a webpage.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  I don't think you understand the comparison. Any native code that runs on your OS can do almost anything, like access your webcam. Code that runs in your browser can't do that unless you (the browser) grant the permission, or it finds a series of exploits. If you are suggesting browsers shouldn't offer access to webcams etc at all, that would not make the world more secure because the web would just die and we'd all be back to running native code.

moooo99 7y ago

I'd say the opposite is true. With more powerful browsers, you are making web applications more powerful and remove the need for a desktop app. Web apps, if built correctly, are probably more secure than desktop apps. Especially considering that you completely remove the need for user updates, since the website is updated by the developers. Plus, webbrowsers implement a proper permissions model unlike native apps, especially on Android, used to do.

bjoli 7y ago
Sure, web browsers implement a proper permission model, but: the surface of a browser is enormous. Just the sheer magnitude of a modern browser gives me vertigo. Chrome has how many compilers? How much code to handle broken input? Whereas most kernels are easy to understand (even relatively modern ones like seL4), also many parts of a browser are at the frontier of "applied CS". If I were to build something relatively small today, I don't think I would feel safe if it had to run in a browser due to the enormous complexity of a browser. I just don't think it is possible to secure them fully. Writing everything myself at least gives me a false sense of security in the sense that I at least believe I understand what is running :)
- moooo99 7y ago
  Okay, from a software engineering perspective you're 100% right. Browsers are a very complex system and they'll continue to grow. But try to see it from a user perspective. You as a software developer know how your system works. You know what components you used, how to compile and install and how to secure. Your average user (depending on the target audience) doesn't know anything like this. Most users are happy when their current installation works, they often don't want to update, without realizing that this comes with the cost of their security. I feel like webapps are the easier way to keep users with no experience secure.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > Whereas most kernels are easy to understand Have you taken a look at Linux?!

gridlockd 7y ago

> That's fundamentally wrong and insecure What's fundamentally insecure about it? The permission model of the browser is better than that of desktop operating systems. You can argue that it's more opportunity for exploits, but then again many (if not most) exploits are found in processing and rendering text.

danieldk 7y ago
> What's fundamentally insecure about it? The permission model of the browser is better than that of desktop operating systems. And yet, sites exfiltrate enormous amounts of behavioral information. Whereas with a desktop app, I can just put it in a sandbox without network access and I am 100% sure that no data gets uploaded to anyone. I think we tend to focus too much on security as in whether some application can be exploited to get UID/ring 0 access (which is undeniably important) and not so much as in whether the application's creators can extract all kinds of personal information. While unfettered access has larger consequences, it is a relatively rare occurrence, whereas unwanted extraction of personal/behavioral information happens continuously.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > And yet, sites exfiltrate enormous amounts of behavioral information. Whereas with a desktop app, I can just put it in a sandbox without network access and I am 100% sure that no data gets uploaded to anyone. I don't see how that has anything to do with the security of the platform itself. Sure, some desktop apps can be sandboxed. Others don't work without some form of network connection. It's up to the developers what to (not) do here. > While unfettered access has larger consequences, it is a relatively rare occurrence, whereas unwanted extraction of personal/behavioral information happens continuously. A website or web app can not access any personal information that you haven't entered into it or its "partners". If cross-site tracking is your concern, there are ways to mitigate that.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Just as there are ways to mitigate the dangers of running desktop applications. Point is: Web is not inherently better for your privacy or security.

konart 7y ago

>But why are Browser gaining so much power I'm confident that soon enough there won't be such a devision as web app and mobile app anyway. That's why imo.

McTossOut 7y ago
that's not soon enough
robenkleene 7y ago
Curious if you're aware that mobile web usage dropped from 14% to 8% from 2014 to 2016[0]? And that according to Alex Russell[1], Google's internal telemetry has it well below 7% now. It seems to me that the opposite is true, that the irrelevance of the web on mobile will keep the web app versus mobile app division around essentially forever (web apps will be popular on desktop, and native apps on mobile). (Unless I was misunderstanding and you were saying, what's the difference? E.g., Facebook is Facebook, whether it's a web app or a native app.) [0]: https://www.flurry.com/post/157921590345/us-consumers-time-spent-on-mobile-crosses-5 https://www.flurry.com/post/157921590345/us-consumers-time-s... [1]: https://vimeo.com/364402896 https://vimeo.com/364402896
- cooljacob204 7y ago
  Well more and more mobile apps are becoming reskinned webapps. So from a technical standpoint it is becoming more meshed.
- konart 7y ago
  That's sort of proves my point. Many apps these days are just a web app with a launcher for your homescreen. Lets say we have https://dynalist.io/ https://dynalist.io/. If you are going to open their web app in Safari and then open their iOS app - you will notice that UI is identical. Because it is the same UI! In one case you have to access it via a browser and the app is just the same frontend delivered to you as an iOS app. PWA or something similar - is the future. Hence all those APIs in browsers.

whywhywhywhy 7y ago

The more features like this a browser has the less excuse manufacturers of connected devices have for relying on mobile apps. We were moving too far into a world where anything connected required a mobile companion app that inherently has a lifespan because of how averse to legacy apps the mobile ecosystem is.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't think the reason I can't use Discord and Slack via my mobile browser is due to a lack of NFC support.

cameronfraser 7y ago

No less secure than some random desktop application that does the same thing

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

why are Browser gaining so much power Because Google delivers its services through web browsers.