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Except that's not how public policy works. It's not like Tesla just happened to luck into these policies. They actively lobbied for them. There's a significant

Except that's not how public policy works. It's not like Tesla just happened to luck into these policies. They actively lobbied for them. There's a significant amount of "greenwashing" involved there. I think it's instructive to realize that both of Musk's companies have, as critical elements of their success, government policies which favored them at just the right time. I have nothing against Tesla as a luxury car brand. I do get tired of fanboys suggesting they'll take over the entire industry. Normal people can't afford a $60k Model 3 (and that's what they actually cost). Other companies will do fine in the electric space. I'm quite happy with my used Nissan Leaf. Price? $8500. Let's see Tesla beat that.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
The ITC tax credit for solar and storage, the EV tax credit, and the electric vehicle charging station credit all existed before Tesla (and all other solar, storage, and vehicle manufacturers are eligible for these credits, not just Tesla, you just have to build the product). Tesla did lobby for vehicle manufacturers to be allowed to sell directly to consumers, which I cannot see any reason that shouldn't be allowed in a free market. Can you prove they lobbied for these policies? A Nissan Leaf is a glorified golf cart with an air cooled battery that has no longevity and no fast charge network. There is a reason they are so cheap used. It is not a realistic competitor to an internal combustion vehicle, such that a Model 3, Y, S, or X is. That is why Tesla is successful and has sold their millionth car, and is running at a 400k unit/year run rate (based on Fremont and Gigafactory 3 production data). There is no need for Tesla to meet unrealistic expectations such as your example ("I'm quite happy with my used Nissan Leaf. Price? $8500. Let's see Tesla beat that.") when there is an entire worldwide auto market with consumers ready to pay top dollar for the cars Tesla builds (in the US, average sales prices of a new car in the US is $35K and 17 million cars a year are sold), and Tesla commands roughly 1/3rd of the Chinese EV market as of February 2020.
bananabreakfast 7y ago
Nissan Leaf? Have fun in that pile of garbage on wheels. You get what you pay for.
imtringued 7y ago
Why not get a Renault ZOE instead?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Not sold in the US.
marcinzm 7y ago
>and that's what they actually cost They cost $40k, you can try to do whatever random math magic you want to make your argument but that generally won't fly well on this forum.
- sfblah 7y ago
  Sure, with no options. I’d like to hear your response to the $8500 used car comment.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    New cars don't compete with used cars.
  - bananabreakfast 7y ago
    How on earth can you possibly compare a new Tesla to a used cheap electric go-kart?
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    There aren't really any options to select anyway, aside from a few extra bucks for non-white paint.
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    A new Leaf is $30k base. A car which depreciates that much is going to look really bad to new buyers versus one that doesn't. And without new buyers there are no used cars to sell at $8500. Tesla is affordable to something like 50% of new car buyers and if it sells for $20k more used then paying $10k more is an easy decision if you can afford it. edit: Or in other words, used cars are irrelevant in terms of market adoption since their supply is limited by the supply of new cars. So you need to look at the demand and sales of new cars.
    - rconti 7y ago
      The cheapest LEAF (don't ask me why they capitalize it) base MSRP is $31,600 vs a Tesla SR+ Model 3 at $39,900. The LEAF S and SV with a 40kWh battery have 149mi range up to a $34,190 base price. The cheapest 226mi range LEAF is $38,200. Nissan offers a cheaper base price for a market segment Tesla is not playing in, which is great. But if you want to compare apples to apples, the pricing is basically the same. And then there's depreciation..........
rootusrootus 7y ago
> Normal people can't afford a $60k Model 3 That's hyperbole. I paid a little less than $60K out the door for my Model 3, and it is the Performance model. You can order a $40K Model 3 right off the web site that is substantially identical aside from being slower and having a few miles less range (though in practical terms it's probably about the same because the P3D doesn't get anywhere near rated range). AFAIK you can still special order the $35K model.
rconti 7y ago
You lose credibility when you try to call Tesla supporters "fanboys", but then you artificially inflate the price of the car by 50%. This is not a mundane detail.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

The ITC tax credit for solar and storage, the EV tax credit, and the electric vehicle charging station credit all existed before Tesla (and all other solar, storage, and vehicle manufacturers are eligible for these credits, not just Tesla, you just have to build the product). Tesla did lobby for vehicle manufacturers to be allowed to sell directly to consumers, which I cannot see any reason that shouldn't be allowed in a free market. Can you prove they lobbied for these policies? A Nissan Leaf is a glorified golf cart with an air cooled battery that has no longevity and no fast charge network. There is a reason they are so cheap used. It is not a realistic competitor to an internal combustion vehicle, such that a Model 3, Y, S, or X is. That is why Tesla is successful and has sold their millionth car, and is running at a 400k unit/year run rate (based on Fremont and Gigafactory 3 production data). There is no need for Tesla to meet unrealistic expectations such as your example ("I'm quite happy with my used Nissan Leaf. Price? $8500. Let's see Tesla beat that.") when there is an entire worldwide auto market with consumers ready to pay top dollar for the cars Tesla builds (in the US, average sales prices of a new car in the US is $35K and 17 million cars a year are sold), and Tesla commands roughly 1/3rd of the Chinese EV market as of February 2020.

bananabreakfast 7y ago

Nissan Leaf? Have fun in that pile of garbage on wheels. You get what you pay for.

imtringued 7y ago

Why not get a Renault ZOE instead?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Not sold in the US.

marcinzm 7y ago

>and that's what they actually cost They cost $40k, you can try to do whatever random math magic you want to make your argument but that generally won't fly well on this forum.

sfblah 7y ago
Sure, with no options. I’d like to hear your response to the $8500 used car comment.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  New cars don't compete with used cars.
- bananabreakfast 7y ago
  How on earth can you possibly compare a new Tesla to a used cheap electric go-kart?
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  There aren't really any options to select anyway, aside from a few extra bucks for non-white paint.
- marcinzm 7y ago
  A new Leaf is $30k base. A car which depreciates that much is going to look really bad to new buyers versus one that doesn't. And without new buyers there are no used cars to sell at $8500. Tesla is affordable to something like 50% of new car buyers and if it sells for $20k more used then paying $10k more is an easy decision if you can afford it. edit: Or in other words, used cars are irrelevant in terms of market adoption since their supply is limited by the supply of new cars. So you need to look at the demand and sales of new cars.
  - rconti 7y ago
    The cheapest LEAF (don't ask me why they capitalize it) base MSRP is $31,600 vs a Tesla SR+ Model 3 at $39,900. The LEAF S and SV with a 40kWh battery have 149mi range up to a $34,190 base price. The cheapest 226mi range LEAF is $38,200. Nissan offers a cheaper base price for a market segment Tesla is not playing in, which is great. But if you want to compare apples to apples, the pricing is basically the same. And then there's depreciation..........

rootusrootus 7y ago

> Normal people can't afford a $60k Model 3 That's hyperbole. I paid a little less than $60K out the door for my Model 3, and it is the Performance model. You can order a $40K Model 3 right off the web site that is substantially identical aside from being slower and having a few miles less range (though in practical terms it's probably about the same because the P3D doesn't get anywhere near rated range). AFAIK you can still special order the $35K model.

rconti 7y ago

You lose credibility when you try to call Tesla supporters "fanboys", but then you artificially inflate the price of the car by 50%. This is not a mundane detail.