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From my POV the real problem is that there are phenomenon that apparently cannot be studied scientifically. Like Reiki. Now I'm not a scientist but I am a hug

From my POV the real problem is that there are phenomenon that apparently cannot be studied scientifically. Like Reiki. Now I'm not a scientist but I am a huge proponent of science. Carl Sagan is among my personal heroes, okay? I am in favor of science over superstition and irrationality. One day I encountered a phenomenon that is as real and physically dramatic as, say, the electric field of a Van de Graff generator. Being a fan of science I went looking for the math/science/engineering for this phenomenon. Long story short, after a few years of research, I discovered that: 1) this phenomenon has been known since antiquity in a pre-scientific way; 2) several researchers had independently (re-)discovered it multiple times going back about 2.5 centuries; 3) each time it had achieved a certain notoriety but then been debunked and subsequently ignored or forgotten. The first was Mesmer & "animal magnetism", but there are several others including Baron Von Reichenbach & the "Odic force", and Wilhelm Reich & "Orgone". This is repeating today with several kinds of "energy healing" including Reiki (which is distinguished by being Japanese and unabashedly theistic (Rei means Divine)) where practice is widespread, but lacking scientific validation. As I say, I've felt Reiki, so I know it's real, but so far I've personally never been able to interest any scientists in studying it, despite offering to demonstrate it. And the studies that have been done haven't helped. The Wikipedia article for Reiki just straight up calls it pseudoscience.

Analemma_ 7y ago
To the extent that Reiki or any other alternative medicine technique actually does anything, it's easily explainable by the placebo effect. You know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.
- yters 7y ago
  The placebo effect itself is fairly spooky.
  - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
    Not really. It's all Descartes fault, essentially, by postulating the "mind" as distinct from matter. More specifically, placebo pain-relief has been associated with endogenously produced opioids for approximately 40 years now (1978, I believe). More recent research suggests that much of the variance in the effects of pain-killers can be associated with these endogenously produced opioids (when the patient was not aware of the pain-relief, responses were similar). So essentially, the placebo effect is just a normal part of your body responding to medical treatment, regardless of the efficacy of said treatment. I'm talking about pain because most of the research is on pain, but the principles are similar where placebos tend to be effective (not against infections, sadly but pain and depression seem to be extremely placebo-responsive).
- carapace 7y ago
  I've heard that joke before, and it's not as funny as you might imagine. But anyway, well, see, there you go. Meaning no disrespect, my whole point is that you and others like you cannot or will not "see" this thing, yet it's definitely "there". I think it's got to be the "social side of science" somehow preventing otherwise-rational minds from seeing what's right in front of them (even during a scientific study of Reiki.)
- sean2 7y ago
  I disagree: I've known some poorer folks, who swear by Reiki, which if I understand correctly is massage (proven in studies to accelerate certain types of healing) and maybe some herbal rubs. I and my rich coworkers, with good insurance, go to professional physical therapists and get real, proven Medicine, which mainly consists of massage and some prescription topicals. I don't need either the placebo effect, nor mystical energy to explain Reiki. Ditto for most alternative medicines I've seen friends swear by.
yters 7y ago
How does feeling Reiki establish it is real? What sort of objective effect did it have?
- carapace 7y ago
  > How does feeling Reiki establish it is real? That's a good question. The subjective sensations correlated with various external events. What I mean is, I satisfied myself that I wasn't hallucinating. > What sort of objective effect did it have? Accelerated healing. I've never tried to make a physical instrument to measure "chi", but the subjective effects of it on living tissue would be measurable with scientific instruments, I'm sure. - - - - edit to say: I don't want to hijack the thread but if you're genuinely interested AMA.
  - gumby 7y ago
    >> What sort of objective effect did it have? > Accelerated healing. Clinical trials of products designed to accelerate healing are so difficult to do that few products are developed with such an endpoint. Your own experience may satisfy you, and that is great, but it's extremely difficult to set a baseline against which to measure any speed up in "healing".
    - carapace 7y ago
      I have only anecdotes. I can hold my hand a centimeter away from another person's hand and "channel" Reiki to them and they can feel it clear up to their elbow. But I don't know how to make a scientific instrument to detect that. (BTW, it is great! I was careless taking a pan out of the oven a few months ago and burned my thumb pretty good. I "beamed" it with Reiki and the pain went away and didn't come back. "So I got that going for me, which is nice." Quoting myself from back then: > I burned the tip of my thumb the other day taking a pan out of the oven, 450°F. I was careless and didn't quite hold the potholder correctly, burn reflex overridden so I wouldn't drop the pan, it melted the fingerprint whorls. After I finished hopping up and down, pissed off at my own carelessness, I took a few moments to "beam" Reiki to my thumb, while concentrating on communicating with my healing and immune responses telling them to "get in there and clean things up". The pain went away and didn't come back. A very modest blister formed under the melted skin. The spot was tender, and it stung a bit if I let hot water touch it the first day, but after that there was no tenderness. Two days later the blister was gone. The skin is slightly rough, but it's not peeling, nor is it a scab. Day three I woke up and forgot that I had burned myself. The flesh apparently reconstituted itself. I'm not sure it will even leave a scar. [It didn't.] The skin still hasn't peeled. > In sum, a minor second-degree burn, apply ten seconds of Reiki, result: no pain and accelerated healing.)

Analemma_ 7y ago

To the extent that Reiki or any other alternative medicine technique actually does anything, it's easily explainable by the placebo effect. You know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

yters 7y ago
The placebo effect itself is fairly spooky.
- disgruntledphd2 7y ago
  Not really. It's all Descartes fault, essentially, by postulating the "mind" as distinct from matter. More specifically, placebo pain-relief has been associated with endogenously produced opioids for approximately 40 years now (1978, I believe). More recent research suggests that much of the variance in the effects of pain-killers can be associated with these endogenously produced opioids (when the patient was not aware of the pain-relief, responses were similar). So essentially, the placebo effect is just a normal part of your body responding to medical treatment, regardless of the efficacy of said treatment. I'm talking about pain because most of the research is on pain, but the principles are similar where placebos tend to be effective (not against infections, sadly but pain and depression seem to be extremely placebo-responsive).
carapace 7y ago
I've heard that joke before, and it's not as funny as you might imagine. But anyway, well, see, there you go. Meaning no disrespect, my whole point is that you and others like you cannot or will not "see" this thing, yet it's definitely "there". I think it's got to be the "social side of science" somehow preventing otherwise-rational minds from seeing what's right in front of them (even during a scientific study of Reiki.)
sean2 7y ago
I disagree: I've known some poorer folks, who swear by Reiki, which if I understand correctly is massage (proven in studies to accelerate certain types of healing) and maybe some herbal rubs. I and my rich coworkers, with good insurance, go to professional physical therapists and get real, proven Medicine, which mainly consists of massage and some prescription topicals. I don't need either the placebo effect, nor mystical energy to explain Reiki. Ditto for most alternative medicines I've seen friends swear by.

yters 7y ago

How does feeling Reiki establish it is real? What sort of objective effect did it have?

carapace 7y ago
> How does feeling Reiki establish it is real? That's a good question. The subjective sensations correlated with various external events. What I mean is, I satisfied myself that I wasn't hallucinating. > What sort of objective effect did it have? Accelerated healing. I've never tried to make a physical instrument to measure "chi", but the subjective effects of it on living tissue would be measurable with scientific instruments, I'm sure. - - - - edit to say: I don't want to hijack the thread but if you're genuinely interested AMA.
- gumby 7y ago
  >> What sort of objective effect did it have? > Accelerated healing. Clinical trials of products designed to accelerate healing are so difficult to do that few products are developed with such an endpoint. Your own experience may satisfy you, and that is great, but it's extremely difficult to set a baseline against which to measure any speed up in "healing".
  - carapace 7y ago
    I have only anecdotes. I can hold my hand a centimeter away from another person's hand and "channel" Reiki to them and they can feel it clear up to their elbow. But I don't know how to make a scientific instrument to detect that. (BTW, it is great! I was careless taking a pan out of the oven a few months ago and burned my thumb pretty good. I "beamed" it with Reiki and the pain went away and didn't come back. "So I got that going for me, which is nice." Quoting myself from back then: > I burned the tip of my thumb the other day taking a pan out of the oven, 450°F. I was careless and didn't quite hold the potholder correctly, burn reflex overridden so I wouldn't drop the pan, it melted the fingerprint whorls. After I finished hopping up and down, pissed off at my own carelessness, I took a few moments to "beam" Reiki to my thumb, while concentrating on communicating with my healing and immune responses telling them to "get in there and clean things up". The pain went away and didn't come back. A very modest blister formed under the melted skin. The spot was tender, and it stung a bit if I let hot water touch it the first day, but after that there was no tenderness. Two days later the blister was gone. The skin is slightly rough, but it's not peeling, nor is it a scab. Day three I woke up and forgot that I had burned myself. The flesh apparently reconstituted itself. I'm not sure it will even leave a scar. [It didn't.] The skin still hasn't peeled. > In sum, a minor second-degree burn, apply ten seconds of Reiki, result: no pain and accelerated healing.)